Spending too much time alone...

[CeeMee]

Selkie wrote:

"I do fantasize when i see "friends" on TV, that would be nice to have a gang of friends whom you are close to and whom are always around.  I couldn't do that though, but I would like to someday, like create my own family made up of friends..."

Funny you should say that Selkie, I've wondered about  "Friends" and "Seinfeld" and just about every other sitcom I've watched that portrays relationships that I've never seen in real life.  I ask myself, am I missing something or is this all make believe?

Seinfeld really cracked me up because I lived in NY and believe me, neighbors barely spoke, let alone came knocking on one's door unannounced.  How about Sex in the City, (or whatever that was called).  A bunch of women sitting around talking openly about sex.  NOT!
My favorite now is "The L Word" which portrays a bunch of lesbians who basically, eat, sleep, laugh, cry and do everything else together.  Don't forget the daily meeting at the local club "The Planet" where everyone just happens to bum[ into each other.  None of this resonates with me at all.  Is any of it real?  I do believe that subconsciously, I may think that this is what healthy people look and act like and I ain't that!

CeeMee

[Marta]

Is that intimacy?  I still don't need them! 

When you have intimacy in your relationships, you won't have to ask, you will just know it. It will feel unlike anything else in this world.

Maybe I do need them but I don't realise it. 

Bingo.

What I hear you say is that a lot of human needs simply never existed in you. Like need for mother's love or need for friends. That is like saying I don't need food to survive or air to breathe. If I were you, I would explore reasons as to why it is find it so hard to admit to these needs. Could it be because you have big problems with being needy and think it is ugly? Not surprizing that you feel this way, given how things were in your family. Could it be because you are really afraid deep down that if you need others and they wouldn't be there? After all no one was there for you when you were growing up.

MP, I second Selkie. You need to separate their sh*t from you. Intellectual knowledge of it, which you seem to have, doesn't do the trick. The realization has come through the feelings somehow, so don't stuff them please. You nailed it when you said that you feel like Cinderella without a Godmother. They say that the mythological characters we identify with are a clue to where we are at in life and what may be happening to us. There is an interesting book by Colette Dowling called Cinderella Complex. I had read it a long time ago, but it may be something you could look up. A fairy God Mother could come in form of a therapist too....

[Chicken]

Marta, that's really amazing that you found something in my quote: "maybe I do need them but don't realise it"  -I had to read that over and over and over again to get why you replied "bingo"!!

What I meant was that maybe my needs are being fulfilled but I don't realise it...   

I think that both you and my counsellor see something different though, something i am not yet aware of.  I feel like i am walking around with a monster but I can't see him...everyone else can.  Everyone can see my issue but I can't...  yet.

Did you think i meant:  Maybe I do have a need but i haven't realised that I have a need...  this is what I think you read from my quote.
In which case, I hope i do.  I would like to have a need.  It would be nice to need my friends and for them to need me.

[Sallying Forth]

For me it has been a phase I've gone in and out of throughout my healing journey.

When I hit the grieving portion of my healing I wanted no contact with any of my friends. I didn't begin to fully grieve until I had dealt with most of my memories. I had cried here and there, got angry and depressed but never got into grieving. When I did, beginning in November 2004, I wanted no contact with friends.

I am also INFP, Introverted, Intuitive, Feeling, and Perceptive which makes me a true introvert. I enjoy my time alone. I find that after being with a friend I like spending time alone. This energizes and refuels me. I find there is a balance between alone time and time spent with people. If I am around a group of people, for instance a church service, I find I need to go home and escape from the noise and become silent. If one or two people I need to get on my own to have some inner peace and time for me.

My t says there is a balance which each introvert must find for themselves. No two people will be a like. I thrive and grow and learn and explore on my own. Someone else may need a balance of more friend time and less alone time.

An extrovert thrives on activity and contact with people. That is what energizes and refuels them.


There was a time earlier on in my healing where I was depressed and needed to get on anti-depressants. I didn't withdraw from friends during that time but I cried a lot and had lots of anxiety. However some people who are depressed withdraw from people. I also couldn't sleep and didn't eat very well.


I have to add one thing here. I found most of my friends were either N or were not willing to fully heal from their childhood abuse issues. I dropped all those friendships which fit those two groups because they weren't healthy. That left me with no physical friends and I was okay with that. My t agreed that this is a phase many people go through who are healing from childhood abuse such as mine. I was thankful to hear that because at first I thought there was something wrong with me.

[Hopalong]

Hi Selkie,
You have "deep unspeakable suffering" in your tagline....
in some way, this seems like a signpost, pointing deep within you, that might direct you to a need...

Could the need be not to feel? Or could that be what you THINK the need is? And being emotionally present, as opposed to just "there" with other people, seems scary?

Might be a question to explore. I know that I've been so full of need at times that I scared people off. So I would go through long periods of isolation because I only knew how to express my needs in 4th gear (overwhelming others) or stuffing them so deep I coudln't feel them (staying alone and burying depression in escapes like compulsive mystery novel reading or TV--still do that...).

One of my tasks now is to learn how to express my needs without letting out a volcano, and accept that getting a little comfort means a lot. A little comfort from a few different people...and try to add it up inside.

Just some rambling thoughts...
Hopalong

[Chicken]

Hi Hopalong

What you say is true.  I know it intellectually but i am not there yet emotionally, I feel like I am stuck in the past at the moment. 

I know I must have a huge need in me that is stifled.  I needed to stifle it in order to survive as a kid.  I am feeling the hurt like it only happened yesterday.  I never felt the hurt as a kid, I couldn't afford to, it was transformed into rage.  My counseller asked me the other day if my Mothers love had any condition, like would she sometimes act loving towards me if I did this, or that, or whatever, but there was no condition. 

I can not remember one time where she was loving towards me.  She hated me.  She told me that she wished she never had me.  She was constantly trying to get rid of me, out of the house. If she was going somewhere, she would sneak away for fear I would want to come too.  She was always rejecting me.   As a result, I acted out,  I was troublesome, I got expelled from school.  As a result, she hated me even more.  She was so cruel to me.  She played games with me.  She compared me to my brothers and sisters.  She was nice to them just so she teach me a lesson.  It taunted me, it made me hate her even more.  She ridiculed me.  She always sought revenge.  She was constantly punishing me.  When I did break under the strain and I collapsed in tears, she would tell me to stop feeling sorry for myself.  I learned to hate, never to love. 

I'm sure once upon a time, I tried different tactics to win her love.  They all failed and I shut down.  I guess this is where my needing stopped.  What good is it to need when you are 100% sure your need is not going to be met?   It's a waste of time.  My need had to be terminated or I would remain in this hell.  I am still there emotionally.  I have to go back into my childhood and open up that child again.  It's a painful place but at the moment I am nowhere near opening the adult up.  I'm sure it will come in time.

[Healing&Hopeful]

Selkie hon... it sounds to me like you understand where you are at, at this present time and what you say makes a lot of sense.  I feel that you're giving yourself understanding, and like you say, in time the rest will come. 

Big hugs

H&H xx

[miss piggy]

Hello all,

(((Selkie))) I sometimes wonder how I would have turned out if I actually knew my parents were rejecting me rather than this covert thing they do.  Your mother kind of let you know loud and clear.  I wonder if this would have just destroyed me or if I would have known that this was just so totally weird that it had to be her problem not mine.  I can understand why you would have stopped chasing your mother's love.  There is a natural inclination for a child (I won't call it a need here, how about natural instinct instead) for a child to want, expect, and grab onto a mother's love because it IS necessary for survival as a baby at least.  At some point, it became apparent for you to stop desiring this for survival, because at some point you realized you were chasing something that didn't exist for you.  I don't know.  This seems like a healthy response to your situation.  Why need and pursue something that doesn't exist?  that would just lead to endless frustration.

Someone else above said that balance is the key.  I guess I wonder if I have the right balance.  But I am so filled with self-doubt that I don't know if I have the right balance for me.  I just know it isn't the same balance as other people.  However, I am concerned that since introverts are heavily outnumbered by extroverts, and in the US anyway, we are culturally discriminated against, that we may be telling you that you have a larger problem than you actually do.  You seem comfortable and accept your balance, it seems to me.  I don't hear the yearning in your writing that I feel in myself.  This is just an observation from a possibly distorted point of view.  I just raise it as a possibility, not a foregone conclusion.   

Sallying Forth said:

I am also INFP, Introverted, Intuitive, Feeling, and Perceptive which makes me a true introvert. I enjoy my time alone. I find that after being with a friend I like spending time alone. This energizes and refuels me. I find there is a balance between alone time and time spent with people. If I am around a group of people, for instance a church service, I find I need to go home and escape from the noise and become silent. If one or two people I need to get on my own to have some inner peace and time for me.

This is me to a tee, also.  The only problem is that I think this means there is something wrong with me.  My "progress" is I don't think there's anything wrong with me, now I think other people think there is something wrong with me.      And I still care about that.

Thank you everyone for your caring responses to my verbal upchuck.  This is the basic construction of the hamster cage that rolls around and around every night when I can't sleep.  I do have a T and I told her early on that the reason I come to her is because I need to pay someone to keep my confidences, that I do not have a best friend to count on to keep my secrets.  Oh, this is another theme--that anytime I confided in someone, it got back to my parents who would become very upset with me and sometimes punish me for talking about things outside the home.  Yes indeedy.  This is a big one.  Just posting here is a huge relief.  Marta, this is also why I am uncomfortable starting my own thread.  Standing right behind me while I sit at the keyboard is the huge boogie man that will club me and send me to my room for making family problems too visible and being repeatedly betrayed by my own personal Judas.  Over the littlest transgressions and benign opinions.  For some reason, this little trick of posting within other threads makes me more comfortable.  Childish but effective.    It's helpful that you call me on it and say, post away, you have permission!!! 

do any of you ever feel this way?: I notice that I am not a joiner.  That joining a group would define me.  And if I am defined, then people would react negatively (notice, negative not positive) against that definition.  I would also feel obligated to meet the group's expectation of a member that is, you may do this, you may not do that.  I guess I feel the price of belonging is too great to give up my freedom.  (Hmmm, family of origin issues here, just maybe???)  To give you an easy example, when I am with people of one political party, I feel more akin to the other opposing party.  I don't think I'm being contrarian, maybe I am, but I think well, can't both parties be right about things?  Can we be individually responsible for our own well-being AND look out for our neighbor?  (I know I am oversimplifying and hope I don't offend anyone with my characterizations).  Anyway, i have this internal catch-22 that leads me to yearn to belong and be accepted, then reject the group for fear that I will be swallowed up.  For fear I will be rejecting others outside the group as well.

Gosh, as I write this I realize I don't want to offend anyone by being who I am.  Sheesh!!  At some point, I give up and say well I can't please anyone so I'll just sit over here by myself.  My T says this all boils down to never having been allowed to individuate or whatever...so what do I do now?

I guess my bottom line is I just want to become more comfortable with being me...

If you got this far, thanks for reading!! MP

[Hopalong]

Well, jeez, of course you have a hard time opening up!
What a horrible, monstrous, inexcusable cruelty that was.
Your mother was barking mad, and I am so, so sorry.

You're not, though. You are sane and you do see where it began. That's the biggest step.

I send a huge pillowy down comforter (if you're not allergic to feathers) absolutely full of a powerful concentrate of motherlove, that comes from all the good mothers all over the planet, those great mothers who have so much love in them that they spin out threads of it everywhere, and those catch together and spin themselves into a great huge warm soft comforter for YOU, who deserves it.

Snuggle up, warm and safe.
You are not in her house any more.
You are going to find your power to be happy.

And you'll go out when you're ready and let a little love in from other people. Maybe just a little bit at a time. Until you eventually are open all the way, and the pain is healed.

It really can be. Don't forget that, even in your alone time.

Love,
Hopalong

[miss piggy]

Hi Selkie,

I just want to second what Hops said above.  And the idea of a big cozy comforter to hug ourselves with is a keeper!

Hugs, MP

[miss piggy]

OK, me again...this thread is just such a rich vein for me to explore!!! 

I wanted to get back to the "Friends" part.  I also had a mixed reaction to this show.  On the one hand, I did think it was contrived.  On the other hand, at one of my workplaces, the single people regularly got together after work.  Some dated each other.  I felt hopelessly out of it (beyond my usual state of aloneness) because I thought this crossed boundaries that I kept for myself.  I would wonder why am I following one set of rules, that is, have friends outside of work, have a family outside of work, leave work at the office, etc. and these folks are totally going the other way.  I chalked it up to the fact that I was married.  But there were married people who also socialized quite a bit outside the office above and beyond business-related contact.  It was rather cult-like, and now years later, there are blogs and lawsuits about white slavery within this very same company!  What's different between then and now?  The people complaining about spending too much time at the office are now married with kids.  These are the same people who dated each other etc.  I scratch my head because it was definitely a disadvantage to be one of the few in my dept to be married when everyone else was single. 

Then I wonder about many people who have a real need to create family outside their own family.  I am very admiring of people's ability to pull this off.  I just wouldn't do it in the workplace.   Then again, I am a loner. 

MP

[Marta]

MP, one advantage of having your own thread is that family secrets are a lot easier to keep. You can erase all traces of your missives a week later by deleting the entire thread, which you can't do on someone else's thread. Think about it, I think the Boogie Man is nodding in approval

I am depressed because i watch my D go through the same thing, the ostracism at school because she is sensitive and her mother is too anxious to give her the same investment she wished she'd got as a child.

This is pretty serious. Why do you feel that you are too anxious to make the same investment with d?

Gosh, as I write this I realize I don't want to offend anyone by being who I am.  Sheesh!!  At some point, I give up and say well I can't please anyone so I'll just sit over here by myself.  My T says this all boils down to never having been allowed to individuate or whatever...so what do I do now?

First of all you realize that you are not offending anyone, I've never seen you offend anyone, and second there is no need to try and please everybody.

Other mothers seem to know just what to do to help their kids form friendships and keep them.  I don't.  This depresses me.

Oh puhleeeese, who are these other mothers that just know exactly the right thing to do or say? Susan Sarandon in Stepmom wasn't one of them.  I think you are inflating everyone else, and pulling yourself down. In today's world, if you just have loving mother who wants to do her best for her children, that in itself is a great gift.

now I think other people think there is something wrong with me.

Like who? Your family? Your husband? Your children? Society at large? As long as it is not your husband, I don't think that people put so much pressure at this age on being an extrovert. In high school, yes. I am very introverted, and even spent many months in a forest being a real hermit, and yet I haven't felt any vibes that others thought that anything was wrong with me. Are you sure you are not just carrying your childhood demons around with you? 

every night when I can't sleep.

That sounds awful, I am sorry.

Yes, all this is whining about less than ideal stuff, not horrific abuse.

Suppose you see raging fire that burns down a house. Does it matter that it was only a spark that started it? Would it not be seen as arsen in the court of law? Would it not be punished? If you are feeling clinically depressed, then what happened to you matters. Nor is it about less than ideal stuff, but real N abuse.

I do have a T and I told her early on that the reason I come to her is because I need to pay someone to keep my confidences,

I am glad that you have a T. Are you uncomfortable submitting to therapy for therapeutic reasons other than sharing your confidences?

[Marta]

Did you think i meant:  Maybe I do have a need but i haven't realised that I have a need...  this is what I think you read from my quote.

Selkie, yes that is what I meant. Everyone needs love, just about everyone who is not an N. So why should you be an exception?

The picture you paint of your mother in this thread is very different from what I read in the other thread. So she was not just unavailable and untouchable, but intentionally cruel to you. And you still want to put your arms around her and help her. That IS love, Selkie, that you expressed towards her.

[miss piggy]

Hello all,

Marta, I think my ability to "invest" in my d is hampered by being subtlely intimidated by other mothers at school.  The up-and-down looks, the veiled insults ("did you make that yourself?") etc.  Friendships of a certain age in small private schools are brokered by the mothers.  I'm not making this up.  If mom breaks an unspoken rule, girlie is dropped from the invite list.  A few of these mothers live to reject people (how N!) and feel their power by appointing themselves the keeper of who's in and who's out.  I keep fighting back by continuing to be civilized and kind to everyone.  Do I really want my D to get to know these families?  Not really, but I wish she could be a member of a different group without being made to feel "out" of another. 

That said, I have to admit to pulling my d out of certain group activities because of the obvious rude behavior that went unchecked by aforementioned mothers because if they, the queens, corrected their Ds, that would mean acknowledging bad behavior on the part of their princesses.  If they did stoop to say anything, it would be to say "they were only kidding, joking, playing".  My D and I are thinskinned too.  So there we are.  If you have caught any early episodes of Gilmore Girls, this might give you the picture of what I'm up against.  And of course this would push my buttons having grown up with N and still learning how to hold my ground and all. 

My very early childhood years were spent in neighborhoods on both sides of the tracks and it is very confusing for me.  From cinderblock walls and corrugated fiberglass to rows of McMansions and BMWs.  Don't fold your napkin instead of casually tossing it askew or you'll be bounced out on your botoxed behind.  Again, I'm not making this up. 

Are you uncomfortable submitting to therapy for therapeutic reasons other than sharing your confidences?

I don't think I understand your question....?  I just meant to indicate that one reason I see my T is to share confidences but that isn't the only reason.  Nuff said for now.

Thanks for the tip on starting threads and the book.  I'm going to look that one up.    MP

[Marta]

Oh my god MP, that sounds so traumatic. Walking on eggshells is bad enough, but to have to carry your child on your back too while you traipse! This would be enough to give me a nervous breakdown. All of my sympathies are with you. As if not getting it right once is not enough, now you have to live through it twice! Part of the reason I have decided not have children is because then I would have to live through high school all over again, and I don’t think I can bear to do that. My childhood was nothing like Gilmore girls, but the sheer pressure for social acceptance and approval was felt to be so great during teenage years. Hugs to you.

Marta