Should I say something or walk-

[Its not Easy]

Thanks ladies( no male perspective yet).
In reply to MuM -at the beginning we never limited our involvement to Sex only. We did not set it up so that we were only slapping flesh. We did,however,acknowledge that there were risks in attachment and that we both should have the opportunuity to move on if other potential partners presented themselves. We never specifically excluded the possibility that this may develop into a committed relationship and neither did we exclude the issues of fairness and respectful treatment -we had some ground rules,both expressed and implied.
 However,we had both assumed a certain freedom to continue to scan the land scape. I have done that subtly and apparent so has she. My only issue is that she verbally expresses her attraction to others to me in the way that I have descibed in my first post, and I keep mine it to myself.

last night I had a call from a good friend of mine who knows P and knew her previous boyfriend who died from Cancer a year ago. This friend informed me that she witnessed P snapping at her guy in an abusive and insulting way after he had bought her a gift which she did not appreciate.
Yuk! What kind of a person does that? Apparently he then APOLOGIZED to her for choosing badly and took the blame on himself.

 In the past few months P has also snapped at me a couple times over some trivial issues . I asked her not to speak to me like a 12 year old being chastised by an angry parent.She seemed to ignore me at the time and it happened again a few times.

I do not see that this respect issue is a result of our 'style' of relationship as has been inferred by a lot of the replies. Maybe I am seeing a facet of her personality which manifests as insensitivity and even abusive. She seems to be unaware of other peoples feelings to a large extent.

I am willing to move on if that is the best thing. I am mildly fond of her in my own way,but my heart is not in it to the extent that I would really 'work' on this relationship to get it *just right*.

I think that the answer is bubbling up to the surface right now as I type this.

Thanks again.

Not easy.

[Hopalong]

Hi NotEeasy,
I know "slapping flesh" sounded judgmental. I'm sorry. But honestly it really does sound a little cold-blooded:

We did,however,acknowledge that there were risks in attachment and that we both should have the opportunuity to move on if other potential partners presented themselves. We never specifically excluded the possibility that this may develop into a committed relationship

To me, the first sentence sets up the impossibility of the second. Other potential partners always present themselves! I mean, life's a parade of people, right? So the only way you could "include" the possibility of a commitment would be if you had specifically agreed to be bystanders at the parade. I am wondering if you talked this through, say, sitting across a table from each other with legal pads? It just sounds so...disconnected. I literally can't fathom it. I've had some disconnected sex in my day and it's always left me feeling like the bottom of a trash can. Not so much ashamed, just emptier than before. It filled no need, resolved no question, gave nothing more than sensation. Attachment is what I think heals people...

By the way, lest you feel picked on, I should insert here that I do not like the sound of HER behavior one bit, agree with you entirely that it bodes badly, and I say move on...talk if you like but my gut says why bother. This is not a negotiable personality trait...the capacity to attach and express loyalty is a choice...she's not making. But then, neither are you (you're just refraining from expressing your wandering interest out loud, but as you say, it's still wandering).

Maybe you were badly hurt in previous relationships and that's why your language sounds so Trumplike.

Here's a question for you: what do you really want with a woman? In your best possible imagining, what would a good relationship feel like? Not what is negotiated...but what feelings would you like to have, sitting in the morning sun over a sleepy breakfast, when you glance at her? Can you imagine being undefended? What would it take?

I think your answer might be in visualizing a new "tone" or quality to your relationships. My hunch is you've been hurt and you feel unsafe. So that's why there's all this chilly rationality in the way you talk about this thing.

Are you lonely?

I hope you find a peaceful place. I think her behavior is brittle and agressive and unkind, but I think you've held yourself at a great distance... Sometimes such detachment brings out ugliness. (Not that you're responsible for her behavior, nor she for yours.) She's acting out her own defenses in her own way, it's just a different way than you are showing yours. I'd make tracks if I were you, but not because she's proven "bad." Just because neither of you sound ready for something wholehearted.

Maybe you deserve some one-on-one time, attention, deep listening, and healing, compassionate conversation. Not with a woman in a club. With a therapist. Maybe you could consider that, without any shame? (Screw shame. Life's too short.)

Let us know how it goes...
Hopalong

[Plucky]

Hello Easy,
I think punish might be a tad too harsh to describe what I mean.  Others have covered the ground more thoroughly but I will try to clarify my post.   If the type of relationship is not working for her, or not working any more, and she feels that she might want something different, or more, and you are somehow not getting that, she could be lashing out at you.  Maybe she senses, as you sort of state, that you wouldn't want more with her.   And it doesn't feel good.  I wouldn't think she is doing this totally consciously or on purpose.

If she has snapped at you a couple of times, is that really a horrible personality trait coming out, or is she just irritated?  I think everyone does that sometimes.  Does it really mean she doesn't respect you at all?  Are most of your interactions respectful?  Or do you feel that underneath it all, she is going to make you into a lapdog, given half a chance?

So I think, either they are faking the funk (trying to be less emotional) and will eventually fail OR something is off with them to the point that they are dissensitized and can use someone for basic needs while staying detached.  So I'm always put off by someone who says let's have sex but no relationship.

jacmac, I agree totally with you!  but I have a problem with the idea that this applies only to women.  I know that men are supposed to be these emotionless animals who just want to scrach the itch, any way they can, and feel exactly nothing, but I don't really think this is true, nor should it be true.  We should not still be raising our sons to be detached and to be users.   I thnk men who are taught to be this way but for whom it does not ring true are just as lonesome and empty and hurt as women by it.   No way are my baby boys going to grow up to be cowboys.

Plucky

[David P]

Jeez Ladies, give this guy a break! He did not ask you whether you thought that his *arrangement* with P was a good idea,a wise move or whether he should structure it differently. He basically felt annoyed by P verbal oglingsi of other guys in front of him.And he offered multiple choice answers.
 
Y'all gave him, morality, motherly advice, unasked for guidance and subtle judgements and and some quite open judgements.

He just is trying to make sense of how he FEELS.
He has posted a follow up in which he states that his relationship with P in NOT only about SEX -did y'all read that part?
And as for Hopalong's post  -"trumplike language",  "are you lonely?",  "you have been hurt and feel unsafe",  "chilly rationality" , " find a therapist " . and so on --blah ,blah.
What does all that have to do with his question? Nothing!

I vote for finding another lady and dumping this one (P) - she does not play fair.

David P.

[Hopalong]

Yikers, Dave. Am I banished from the truck?
I think NotEasy should end that relationship too. Really.
I do think her ogling out loud is unkind, unsettling, and bodes badly.
Maybe I should've limited my response to that...

But. I do try to read between lines, successfully or not. Meant no harm to you at all NotEasy, and i apologize if I hurt you. I know I was just spooked because i was trying to identify with your arrangement-approach...and couldn't.

It may have been overdone but I stand by my questions--I don't know how it could hurt to ask yourself what you really would like to feel with a woman...because it makes me happier to imagine you in something warm, safe, trusting...something that wouldn't carry the fear of risk that you expressed (which I figured alluded to past hurts).

If I'm way off base (sure happens) do set me straight. I think I'd just like to know more about you, and how you came to look for what you're looking for.

Dave, you've mentioned dating multiple people too, and I know it's no crime. in fact it's something I think I should maybe try myself. I've just never understood how people can sleep with one or more people...how does any good connection get built? With divided attention?

I'm really trying not to judge...I'm trying to ASK. Tell me what that's like for you, it really is valuable to hear a man's point of view.

Ta,
Hopalong

[Hopalong]

PS--I know NotEasy didn't say anything about multiple sexual partners. I'm not suggesting he did, or even that you have.
i'm just sensing a different universe of mating and dating that I don't "get"--

Ready to be enlightened,
Hopalong

[David P]

Hopie, get back up on the truck!

Maybe you ladies should read reply#15 again.  Not Easy makes his position clear enough to me.
There was never any suggestion that their relationship was almost completely about sex -never .You gals constucted that position and then told him why it was not a good idea.

I think that he should get back to dating other women pronto and leave this little lady to do her*trawling* all by her tacky self.

There were some posts which delved into guesswork and mind-reading about her possible motives for behaving the way that she did. Who cares! The point is that even if she is trying to make Not Easy take her more seriously or she wants their relationship to progress to a more committed level, I think that her way of going about it is weird. That behavior is regarded as immature by my generation (27 ) and for a 50 year old lady to pull that stuff is pathetic. She sounds like a dippy teenager.

David P.

[Brigid]

David, (dear)
I think that we "older" ladies were speaking from a lot of experience with relationships that you don't have the benefit of at your tender age.  We have been down those roads of multiple sex partners (well I haven't, but I'm sure some have), and going into a protective mode when in the early stages of a relationship.  Not Easy asked how he should proceed with this lady based on her actions.  We offered our various perspectives on why she may be acting that way and how he could possibly proceed.  If he just wanted us to say "dump her", I guess we could have, but why even bother to ask if that is what you want to hear. 

I think the other point that I and others were trying to make is that to sit back and be angry about someone's actions without having a discussion about it, is not productive in a relationship.  If you can't talk to the person you are involved with about their hurtful actions, then what hope does the relationship have?  As I said in my earlier post, if you tell her and she ignores you and continues the behavior, then you know that she is not for you.  Quite honestly, I think Not Easy had already made up his mind and was looking for validation.  That was not easy to do with the information provided because we were looking at it from the female perspective and how we have traversed through our many years of relationship crap. 

The questions that were asked by Hoppy and others are perfectly valid for someone who is seeking to find a good, healthy, fulfilling relationship.  We say those kinds of things to each other all the time here when talking about entering new relationships after being hurt in previous ones.  Guys need to think about that stuff just as much as us girls do. 

Just my 2 cents.

Brigid

[Sela]

Well isn't this turning into a hotttttttttt little discussion!!

From the original post to this thread:

...we arrived at an agreement that we would have a sexual relationship without any permanent expectations of each other.

I took this to mean a sexual relationship without any committment.  With no committment, the relationship iss only about sex.  It's not about building a permanent relationship together.  Isn't it?

I think it's ok to express opinions here.

Anything else seems like an attempt to silence voices that have already been told too often to be quiet.

There's no law that says anyone hassssssssss to accept anything mind-read or suggested.

That's the beautiful thing about this forum.

  Sela

[mudpuppy]

Hey NotEasy,

This male will surface from his mud puddle just long enough to ask if you think you know this gal well enough to even know why she is behaving this way? Your replies don't seem to indicate you do.
She could be upset by the loss of her boyfriend. She could be a nymphomaniac, oh excuse me, I mean a histrionic personality. As Plucky said she might very well be trying to punish you, not necessarily for anything you did, but just because that's what she does. Or maybe she's an ax murderer. Who knows?
Not knowing who she is or why she behaves this way is inherent in this kind of relationship, isn't it?
So, if you don't see a future with her why waste your present on her, especially if she is unkind?
I can't remember what my multiple choices were at the start but I would go for (E) 'Find somebody who isn't such a snot.'

mudpup

[Its not Easy]

Hello again, In a nutshell -I am not really willing to mind-read her motives or try to guess why she is acting the way she is.  If (as David so wisely put it) she is trying to get more of my attention or involvement then her tactics are adolescent and tedious,and she has acheived the opposite effect .
So much for those cute,*girlie games*. What a turn off.

If she truly is lusting after other guys then she is welcome to continue the hunt but without me.
.
I called her last night and told her that her behavior is tacky and disrespectful and that I am leaving the relationship because ultimately it is not what I want,and she is not the person with whom I want to be in any kind of relationship.  She was shocked and angry and claimed to be confused about why I was upset.
I thought to myself at that moment."If you do not get it now you never will."

Maybe I have tried for the impossible and it is not in our nature to have our cake without assembling all the ingredients and gently baking it to perfection.

I like Mudpuppy's final comment about finding someone who is not such a snot.

And finally Hoppie, I will work on than *Trumplike* language that I use.
I do sound just like a man don't I ?

Regards from, Its not Easy.

Oh BTW I grew up in a stifled,controlled and brutally regulated atmosphere - lots of rules and blaming and shaming.. No love just expectations and demands to be someone or something to please my parents vision. Do I qualify to be a contributor to this board?

[Hopalong]

Well, maybe it was good that you were a little Trumpy...sometimes people have to be fired!

I know, for sure, that I was projecting some of my own fears of detached uncommitted men (my own baggage) into my response to you. It's good to realize that, but I'm sorry it came at your expense.

Maybe there was one useful thing somewhere between the lines. I hope so anyway.

I wish you an entire cake, full of nourishment and sweet taste too.
(I guess that would be a carrot-tofu-spinach cake, but you can pile on the icing.)

I'm sorry the relationship was a disappointment.
That hurts, regardless of gender.

Pax,
Hopalong

[Its not Easy]

Maybe "the Donald" would have said, " Hey P ,you're FIRED!"
 As the kids say -"way cool."