I did it again!

[seasons]

I

[miss piggy]

Hi Seasons,

I'm so sorry your urge to reach out backfired.  It's hard to remember that an actual relative has their head stuck in a plastic bubble (or maybe an inside out disco mirror ball!).  They really live in a box and nothing outside their box matters.  When you enter the box, you become an object for them to play with, talk at, toss around for a while.  You yearn for acknowledgement for life outside the box, but they don't see it, hear it, or care to learn about it because they never leave the box.  They never will.  We have to let go of the hope that they will.  It's much less frustrating.

The hard part about your post is reading about how you are beating yourself up with guilt.  Don't feel guilty when you need to leave the box.  It's their box, not yours.  Perhaps you need to explore more how you feel when you stop being her tool or toy.  Is this your responsibility?  (OK, I can hear you thinking...but isn't that what family is for?  Yes, if it's reciprocal, certainly you can count on each other to support each other.)  You have needs and you had urgent important needs that still went unattended by your sisters. 

I still occasionally feel guilt about not contacting one of my Bs.  But it helps me to remember "don't do for your brother what he should be doing for himself".  If I contact him, I will again become a one-way resource.  That is, raise his kids for him.  Talk about abusive expectations.     Enough about me. 

Just take this relapse as a not-so-gentle reminder of what you are dealing with.  It might be more healing to find ways to deal with your feelings that caused you to make the phone call.  Give yourself some credit for being a caring person.  If you want to care for your sister regardless of the response you get, that is a healthier response than to continue to expect her to change.  (I know this fruitless hope very well. )  So don't beat yourself up, learn from it and use the lesson moving forward. 

Take care Seasons.  MP

[Sela]

Hiya Seasons:

I think the messages we are bombarded with about holidays (through the media and even by "normal" people we know, who seem "normal", with "normal" families who "normally" get together with family on holidays).......all of that produces a longing....for that normalcy.

It's ok to want to have a normal family....to long for the connections.....to even try to establish that...by making a phone call and hoping for that kind of response.    You didn't do a bad thing by trying.....you did a nice thing......that didn't work.  You have to decide how many times you are willing to do that and not get what you want, before you will decide to not try any longer.  And that will be ok when it happens too.  It's ok to stop trying to get a "normal" response out of "abnormal" people.

At the very least, your sister is abnormal.  It's not normal to talk to one's sister, whom you haven't seen or heard from in such a long time, and not ask one question about that sister, her husband, children, life or feelings.  It's not normal to talk about yourself for 3 1/2 hours...to do all the talking....never interested in the other person.  That's not a normal conversation is it?

So......Seasons.......you've acknowledged ...."she's sick"...... and you've said you feel:

... broken, weak, tired. I have nothing left again.

and you don't want to meet her or go out with her next week (who would want to go out and listen to another 3 /12 hours of her stuff........you're the more "normal" one!!).

Ok......what you need then is a plan......to reach that goal......of not giving in and going out with her.

Do you have an answering machine?  Could you Not answer the phone......let your husband do it, or the machine, when he's not home.  At least until you feel better....stronger......have more of your own power back???  That might be the best thing right now?

She is over powering, and she loved to have me the victim, she knows I can't speak or won't speak up to her, I become a little child, and just yes her to death because I'm scared of what could happen if I don't.

Wow!!!  She sounds scary!!  Do you see her as big and scary?  Powerful?  Threatening?
Maybe it would help to spend some time visualizing... in your mind ...that she is small, weak, not the least bit scary.  Maybe pretend YOU are bigger, stronger, more powerful, in your head.  This will take some time and definately effort.......but after all.......this is just a vision you have of her, right?  She really can't doooo anything so very powerful to vicitmize you right?  It's all in her talk, tone, insinuations....etc.  If you don't talk to her......don't listen to her tone.......reject her insinuations......she will be powerless over you.
And if you try to create a picture in your mind of her as less scary......maybe it will help to relieve some of the fear??  You might even get to a point where you no longer feel threatened by her power over you....because there won't be any??  You could soon feel good, ok, strong enough to handle her!!

Help me let go

It's a hard thing.  It's so painful eh?  How about just a little?  Let go of answering the phone.  Maybe you will decide that much?  You can let go more....when you're ready.

help me not fall back into her web

Picture a small, black spider on a flimsy web......and a bird comes along and eats that spider up!
Or.......the spider crawls into a crack in the wall.....to hide.....to wait for prey......how lonely....how dark....what a wasted life?
The spider is not a very well liked insect....by a lot of people, who know what a spider bite feels like.
You don't have to let her bite you, Seasons.   You can be a bird.......or just fly away, mentally, from her bite.  You can stay away from her crack in the wall and not become her prey.   And lucky you!  You have a loving, empathetic husband and beautiful children!!  Your life can't be as dark and wasted.

help me not let her use guilt on me

 The way out is not to talk....listen....communicate with her at all.  She can't guilt you if you aren't listening or hearing.   It's just a tactic to get to you.  You can disarm her.

When you feel strong enough......you can set whatever further boundary you decide.  Until then....it's ok to work on your own thinking.......and let your husband and the answering machine deal with her.

((((((((((Seasons))))))))))

Sela

[Plucky]

Hi Seasons,
I know what you mean about being exhausted after the N-counter.   As an adult, I only realised what my coping mechanism was after one of my mother's friends pointed it out.

We were on a trip.  My mom was driving the friend nuts and she was seeing some things for the first time.  She said to me at one point, how do you stand it when she says things like that?  And I said, like what?  Because I literally had not heard her!  When she repeated, I said, did she say that?  And the friend said,  so that's how you do it!

It sounds like most of what yotr sil says is really not necessary to listen to.  Does she expect some response?  Is responding wearing you out, because you have to respond by shoving back your real feelings?   Is just staying voiceless wearing you out?  Suppressing your own anger and needs?

I do not know how I developed this ability.  But I just do not listen at all.  Take the time to daydream.  If there is a pause, change the subject swiftly or just releat the last thing she said.  Usually your subconscious can supply that.  If not, say, can you repeat that?  They are always happy to do so.

I am writing this in case you get stuck talking to her again.   Think about whether anything she said was worth hearing.  You can stop listening to her altogether!   There is no reason to listen!

To avoid getting stuck with her, take a calendar and write something on each day.  Anything, whether you plan to do it or not.  Then when she phones to reschedule, say you have to look at the calendar, and then say, I can't then, I have to ______.   How about next week?

Pretty soon it will be too late to do holiday shopping.   But you tried!

Happy hols.
Plucky

[Hopalong]

Holey moley, you guys have LEARNED these techniques.
Wow.
I'm going to practice all that. I have a little trouble with the fake-listening because it's so hard to suppress my innate desire to make conversations REAL, but you're right, an N is just talking AT you, not with you. Whew. That's helpful.
Seasons, no wonder you're drained. It's not just the beyond-selfish quality of the monologue in your ear...it was too LONG. I know the feeling. With NMom, I have to keep a mental timer going. Same, unfortunately, with my daughter. Because I know I will feel so utterly drained it's near-damaging once they're done talking. With my daughter, I have hope that this is a self-absorbed passage and the sweet young girl I knew, who befriended the homeliest kid in school, volunteered at a camp for burned children at age 14, etc, etc, will come forward again as she gets older. Sorry, I'm talking about myself....whoops.

I did have something to offer. It's something I read the other night when I was panicking over Nboss' power over me. I forget where it was, but it was a spiritual concept. And when I tried it out, it actually did diminish my anxiety. It was:

Pary (or visualize) that the person you fear will get absolutely everything they want and need and be very, very happy.

I am CERTAIN that this does not include dropping your boundaries and letting them use or harm YOU. (So of course Ns2 can't be allowed access into your mind like that with any more calls like that. You will reset the boundary and recover your balance, I'm positive.)

But I did find that as an exercise in calming the terrible turmoil of fear inside me, in my own dealing within my own self, it really did help to do that. He shrank. Not so much like a spider, but more like, he shrank until I saw him as a sour little boy, obsessed with his video games, not really happy but not really capable of that, either. So, because in my visualization he was just a child, I could have compassion.

I am fully aware of the real danger he represents as an adult N with power. And I know you are aware in a similar way of the danger to your peace of mind that this adult S2 has with you. So boundaries ABSOLUTELY. But maybe in private, for your OWN sake, you could try intentionally sending those wishes for her happiness into the universe. (Not into her ear, because she would immediately read compassion as weakness and drain you even more.)

Sorry that was convoluted but I hope it got somewhere that made sense.

BIG hugs and comfort. A slip is just a slip and I agree, it's a natural thing to relapse! So what. You haven't forgotten anything you've learned. You just momentarily let your guard down what with holiday vibes. I agree, it's just because you're a sweet and decent human.

So conjure up some of those same kind visions for YOURSELF. Okay?

Hopalong

[miss piggy]

Hi Seasons,

thank you for the really nice compliment.  I wish I had been more intelligent and articulate when I was younger!   

I literally had panic attacks before I came to the above understanding of Life with Ns.  What was causing the panic attacks?  My sense of self-worth came from helping people.  And in the case of my out of control brother and Nwife, I couldn't help them without it coming at the expense of my kids, my marriage, and my own life and obligations!  No big deal.  Just stop living your life and get over here and do MY life!  And because I couldn't "help" them, I was a "bad" person.  They made me feel this way and most yucky I made myself feel this way.  Really really similar to what you describe above. 

In addition to panic attacks, I read everything on N.  The articles here were a BIG LIGHTBULB going off in my head.     I also happened across Stop Walking on Eggshells by accident and that was an incredible eye-opener about what was going on with psycho SIL.  (Sorry, still don't like her very much.  Workin' on that forgiveness thing still.)  And learning that other people could think of me as a thing just blew my mind.  And that is what is so draining and angering.  I am nothing but a thing to provide the appropriate oohs and ahhs to Mr. Wonderful and serve his needs.  Ugh.  And when we listen on the phone too long to an N we in essence disappear.  You could put a rubber doll next to my Nfather and he would talk a blue streak.  Hey, I think I'll get him one for christmas. 

So my smarts came from the School of Hard N-nocks.  I'm very glad that my lessons are helping people here in some small way, the way that others have helped me.  It is painful to go through this.  And remember, seasons, it isn't selfish to have your own needs and to take care of those needs.  It's called survival.  You are entitled to survive.  Enjoy the loved ones who love you over the holidays. 

Take care now.  MP

[Sela as guest]

Hi again Seasons:

If she would just be her and let me be  Loving, compasionate, fun, grateful, honorable. We could be together, a cup overflowing with such great blessings. I don't get it, is so simple. I could make her feel like
she is the best sister, I need her, want her, delighted in her good fortunes there for the harder times. All that goes into a real relationship. She would be a star in my eyes.

Wow!  Would I love a sister like you.  I would try my best to do and be the same for you!!  Wouldn't that be wonderful!!

So I think what you are saying is that you think you are a bad sister...a sinner... because you don't want to meet with her and listen to her blab on about herself, her life, her woes, her highs, all while she tells you you should have been there for her, at whatever time, you should have done....whatnot....and while she is not taking the least bit of interest in you, your life, your feelings or anything remotely related to you...and basically....hurting you over and over again in that process?

I wish there was a direct line to God because I'd gladly call him up right now and ask:

"Excuse me Father, sorry to trouble you but is it a sin to distance oneself from those who hurt us?"

What do you think he would say????

If your sister were an axe murderer who was trying to stab you over and over again, would you think twice of keeping a safe distance??

Just because her methods are less messy...less obvious... does that make them any less dangerous?
If you keep exposing yourself to her hurtful ways......won't you eventually lose too much blood?

I feel guilty for not letting myself be the best sister I could be.

How are you not being the best sister you can be?  Didn't YOU call her....and give HER an opportunity to relate?

Are you secretly wishing bad stuff on her??  (just kidding.....kidding ).

You can pray for her.  You can still care about her without being her dumpster.  You are a good sister.
She just doesn't realize it....appreaciate it......she's not aware....she's only into herself.

I am petrified of God and my judgement day.

Tell ya what......repent for whatever you feel you have done that will be judged as sinful...for whatever you've done that you think is wrong.

Surely you believe God will forgive you?  If you are sorry for whatever you've done.....truly sorry....your judgement day won't be so bad, I bet.

There are too many ahead of you who aren't sorry and are not asking for anyone's forgiveness.

Poor them ( ). 

I know a loving God would not wish me harm ...

I believe that too.  Why would He wish a poor repenting soul like yours harm?  He knows you're not perfect and He probably appreciates your willingness to admit it.  I bet he understands your struggle.

My other sisterN loves to remind me that we can't get away from any sibling because they are just that, our brothers and sisters.

Sounds like this sister is playing God.  Jeffery Dalmer is your brother but I bet you'd keep a good distance from him if you were ever anywhere in his vicinity.  The Queen is your sister too.....how close do you keep to her?   The way to keep close is to pray for people.  And praying for those who harm you is very loving.  It's the best you can do for "sick" people.

I bet God expects you to take care of yourself for you, your husband and your children.  I bet your sister is dishing out guilt......to keep you up to par with hers (or for some other weird reason that neither of us will ever get??).  Don't let her confuse you.  You're not so bad.

She sees me pulling away and knows my weakness.

I wonder what God will say about that?

((((((((Seasons))))))))

Sela

[Sallying Forth]

Hi Seasons,
It took me a long time to stop sabatoging my life and peace by contacting my Nparents and Nbrothers. Every holiday, either Christmas or Thanksgiving, I'd listen to the wonderful commercials, hear others talk about their supposedly normal families and reminiscene about previous holidays. Of course I believed those previous holidays were wonderful until I would remember the chaos and dysfunction. There I would be again calling or emailing my "wonderful" Nfamily to get that "loving feeling" which never was there. I'd be sucked back into their bull crap and wishing I had never called or sent that email.

It has been 17 years since I have had a normal and healthy conversation with my Nfamily. It took me 16 years to let go of contacting them for any reason.

I had a fleeting thought of contacting them recently when I knew I was going to divorce my N-h. Then I reminded myself of what I'd probably hear from any one of them - an attitude and the most uncaring and unloving responses. Nothing I need in my life.

Breaking the habit of contacting them wasn't easy. It takes time.

I am petrified of God and my judgement day. This I need to work through. I know a loving God would not wish me harm as well as my sisters. I have to find in my heart that I'm not sinning by physically leaving these people. My other sisterN loves to remind me that we can't get away from any sibling because they are just that, our brothers and sisters. She sees me pulling away and knows my weakness.

I guarantee you are NOT sinning by physically leaving these people! I went through the same questioning within me. Then I spoke with a trustworthy and knowledgeable pastor. He assured me that the Bible is referring to honoring healthy and normal parents not abusive, non-loving, and/or neglectful parents and family. Also my current t says many people misinterpret the word, especially those who use it to control our lives, to mean things it doesn't.

If you leave your family or origin because of the way they treat you, you have nothing to worry about on judgment day. God will be judging them for treating you with disregard, neglect and abuse.

The brothers and sisters which the Bible refers to are our fellowship brothers and sisters in our church and those of like mind not our biological siblings. And then we are not to associate with those brothers and sisters who are abusive or uncaring or neglectful. God wants us to use our discernment to determine who are healthy people. And then use our discernment to keep unhealthy people out of our lives.

A great research site for the Bible is:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

There you can research any verse in several versions of the Bible. There are commentaries which will help you understand the verses and their true meanings. The web site contains an extensive search tool, audio, video, study tools, and devotionals. Whenever I am uncertain about the meaning of a specific passage I study it and then as a last resort I go to this web site. I love research.

My long time policy on the Bible and what God really says and means by it, is researching and finding the truth for myself. Pastors and ministers can interpret the Word and feed it through their believe system and alter the truth as it was meant to say and mean. A good pastor/minister will encourage you to confirm the truth of the Word on your own after you listen to him/her.

My N-h purposely misinterpreted the Bible and spewed out lies to control me. Of course I knew the truth so I didn't take in all his bull.

[Plucky]

Hi Seasons,
it's starting to become clear to me why this is weighing so heavy on you.  You've got family, the media, the fairytale holidays, your past, and even God to satisfy.   By being a 'good sister'to your, (I'm not sure what to call her that won't be either offensive or false).  It's a wonder you haven't crumpled from the weight of it all.

I'm a religious person.  But I know God loves me too.  And God does not want me to suffer.  (I'm not in one of those suffering religions.)  And your sil is not doing good.  If you succumb, you are enabling her to do what is basically evil.  Using, being selfish, disregarding the needs of others, not respecting others.

Do not help her do this any more.  Especially not to you.

Now about the media.  I rarely watch television.  When I do, it seems surreal.   Every kitchen floor can be eaten off of.   Every head of hair is shiny, thick, and swingy.  Every child is precocious.  Every couple is good-looking and affectionate.   Every problem can be dispatched handily, with lots of side jokes, in 23 minutes.   Every killer will be caught.

The whole thing is BS.  Do not compare real life to television or the movies.    There is no overlap.  That whole happy family thing, I guess it exists somewhere, but it is just not the norm.  So we are the norm.  Some form of dysfunction is the norm.  We have experienced more than average, I think, but I just don't think  it is run of the mill to have a seamlessly functional family.  It is a nice goal to have but it is not reality, most of the time.  For me, a reasonably functional family is all I want.   The picture postcard can go in the recycling bin with the rest of the trash.

I think you ought to keep a card by the phone with a few phrases:
-  I've got to go, I left the bathtub running.
-  I'll ring you back later, after dinner (don't ring back)
-  I'm sorry I need to go now.  My dog/cat just threw up.
-  I've taken some medication and am feeling drowsy......what?   whaaaat? 
- etc.

a cynical, disjointed, already sick of the hols
Plucky

[Hopalong]

Miz Plucky,
Doesn't sound cynical to me. Sounds real.
I've come to think that deeeep down, reality is my friend.

Rather have that than all the fluff and delusion of the tube.
Couldn't echo you more about the holidays.

NMom is whimpering now, as she does every year, about the inadequacy of family and how she often thinks she doesn't "really have a family" (I'm standing right there, been here for about 7 years...)

ssssiiiiiigggghhh
Ho hobug,
Hopalong

[CeeMee]

Hi Seasons,

I'll try not to repeat what has already been said and just add a few other thoughts here.

It sounds like despite your difficulties with the family, you care for them and wish for a healthy relationship. 
You want to do the right thing but you are confused about  what that is.   
You have a sense of guilt but you are not clear what about.

Can I just say that in my opinion, you did a wonderful and courageous thing calling your sister and then following up when you felt she was in need.
Taking the first   step is always hardest and even though it didn't go the way you would have liked, you are blessed because of it.

In my opinion you have every right to choose not to meet with her now if you are not up to it.  Your needs are just as important as hers.  You took care of her needs, now take care of your own.  Taking a breather from family is sometimes the healthiest thing one can do.

Perhaps you are feeling guilty because you think you opened this pandora's box by initiating that call and gave her the opportunity to spill her guts and now you want her to stop when she is wanting to continue and you are  upset because she vomitted all over you. 

May I suggest that you replace that  feeling of guilt with empathy for her.  She sounds like she needs a lot of help.  Also, replace that feeling of guilt with a conviction that you will not allow this to happen again.  Know that you will have the courage to say to her..."_________, I have to go now."   And be committed to doing that very soon into the conversation that is going only one way.  You will both be the better for it.  She will learn to have two way conversations and you will be empowered knowing that doing the right thing includes doing what is best for you.

I'm sure that God is a loving and merciful God and on judgment day, won't be nearly as hard on us as we are on ourselves at times. 

CeeMee