Socially Correct/Learning the Unspoken Rules

[CeeMee]

I'm thinking I am an extravert who is socially inept.  For whatever reason, I didn't learn many of the unspoken rules for human interaction.  I think that they may be a factor in my limited ability to interact successfully or build strong relationships.  I don't care where this thread goes, just give me any and all your thoughts.

 I've never been able to navigate a male friendship around the romantic, sexual part.  Long story short, although I get along superbly with men, the relationships can't last long because either I don't want to have a romantic relationship or can't have one.  I really am happily married.   Why does it always seem to come to this?  Am I doing something wrong?  Do I have a problem? Or is it true what I have long believed, heterosexual women cannot have "friendships" with heterosexual men?

So there are a few members of the board who I really like and want to know what's up.  I haven't heard from them in a period of time.  My inclination is to write and find out what's happening and why they haven't been on.  When is the socially correct time to show concern?   What is the significant amount of time to have lapsed to warrant a reaction.  I am distracted by the thought that perhaps I am being intrusive or pushy wanting to know what's going on.  They'll get back to the board in their own good time.  I am also distracted with wild thoughts like, something has happened or I said something to offend.   Am I crazy to think there even is an unspoken rule here?

We talked recently on another string about phone calls.  It brought to mind my own limitation which is, I don't know the rule for appropriate length of time for a conversation.  I hate the phone and rarely get on it because of it.    For some reason, I want the other person to determine when the conversation will end (unless I need it to end sooner) but I don't know what the cues are (at least the ones detectable over the phone).  What is an appropriate amount of time to spend on the phone with someone who you are trying to establish or reestablish rapport with? 

Thanks for any feedback and I also welcome anyone else who has questions about unspoken rules.

CeeMee

[Plucky]

Hi CeeMee,
I know how you feel. I feel the same way, like a blundering buffalo who went extinct but no one told me.

My head knows that not everyone knows the 'rules'.  That there really is not a silent conspriacy to punish with ostracism anyone who doesn't know the rules.   That most people out there have weak spots and insecurities and are not sure how to conduct themselves.  That the ones who don't, are frequently bullies and such.

My heart feels left out and as though I deserve it. Like I'll never fit in.  I never have, I never will.  I'm flawed.  I'm a geek.  They're laughing behind my back.  I'm dressed wrong.  I look wrong.  I do the wrong things.  I don't do the right things.

My spirit knows that I am unique and really don't need to follow the crowd.  That I can think for myself and don't have to waste time trying to be accepted by people who are just looking to stroke their own egos by rejecting others.   

It just depends on which shoulder I'm listening to that day!  (Yes, I have 3 shoulders!   Now back off!)

Plucky 

[CeeMee]

Plucky....

I ABSOLUTELY LOVED your response.  I am laughing, laughing, laughing a wonderful laugh because it won't stop resonating.  Thank you.  I couldn't have said it better myself.

CeeMee

[Hopalong]

Hi CeeMee,
I ditto Plucky the buffalo. I bet neither of you are the slightest buffalish.

I just want to offer this thought: I think what can ease that anxiety a little bit is if you focus on what your own intention is. If you'd like to contact members of the board (you mean a board where you work? this board? anyway, either way...) because you are thinking of them, my sense is, why not?

Just: Let Go of the Outcome.

If you can calm your fear, and THEN contact, maybe it'd go better. Like, for example, you've expressed some doubts about:
1) males misconstruing your connecting
2) appropriate lengths of time to talk

How about:
1) setting up some external boundaries for yourself that might dilute that worry, such as (I don't know what the situation is): asking Male X if he'd like to join you for a cup of tea, in daytime, in a public place or company place, and sitting in a non-intimate setting for a pre-set limited amount of time. (E.g., "I can meet you at 11:30 for 45 minutes..." or whatever fits the situation.)
2) if you would like to call, then perhaps since you do sense you have trouble feeling your way into an appropriate time limit, you could set one at the outset of a call. Such as, "I've got to be out the door in 10 minutes but I wanted to say hello, ask you about ___, or whatever. Have you got 10 minutes now or when's good for you?" (Something like that, but you get the drift...it's not unfriendly, it's really a neutral piece of information you're just placing at the beginning of the conversation, which is really considerate of both of you.) Privately, it may help you feel less anxious about time-trespass, and to the other person, it just comes across as considerately cluing them in to what the time deal is. And that's a nice thing. (Or I always appreciate it when someone does that...)

Maybe setting some "artificial" boundaries that seem to symbolically reflect what your intuition is concerned about would help you navigate these 2 areas with less fear?

Hopalong

[CeeMee]

Hoppy,

Letting go of the outcome is the right answer I know yet so hard to do.  My input is a major factor in that outcome and so I try to make sure I am putting the right things in i.e. spending the appropriate amount of time on the phone without cutting the person short or keeping them too long.  I don't want to take the lead here, I want them to determine how long and know when that time is reached.  It seems everyone else knows the appropriate amount of time and how it is calculated except  me and Plucky

With men, it is not the amount of time, it is the quality of that time.  I tend to feel so comfortable around men that I may send off the wrong signals (again the wrong input which may be affecting the output).  I believe growing up with mostly brothers is part of the reason why I am so at ease around guys and slip into these awkward situations.   While I get along great with guys,  I flounder in female relationships.

CeeMee

[Hopalong]

Well yer gittin' along fine with ME! 

I still vote for trying out the preset time limit exercise on the phone. I know you WANT the other person to do it, but I bet experimenting with setting it yourself (in a nice way of course) might surprise you. It might just give you a feeling of, oh. Just: Oh. I can pluck a time limit out of the air BEFORE I call a person (or even when you answer, as in: Hello! Great to hear from you. I'm good for about ___ minutes...etc.).  AND NOTHING BAD HAPPENS! It's maybe just an "Oh." Neutral. But doesn't feel that way to you because you've maybe developed a bit of mild phobia about it.

The other thing: I've been in the same boat with men. I've started to sometimes simply SAY what it is in my case: You know, I'm sometimes so over-the-top exuberant that guys think I'm flirting when I'm just being friendly. (I share that with a guy, not intensely, and that way enlist THEM in ensuring that I'm not misunderstood.) Most times, it invites friendship and defuses their automatic response.

In your case, maybe it could be: You know, I grew up with brothers and I feel so comfortable and relaxed around guys that sometimes they think I'm flirting when I'm just...etc.

??
Hopalong

[Sallying Forth]

I'm thinking I am an extravert who is socially inept.  For whatever reason, I didn't learn many of the unspoken rules for human interaction.  I think that they may be a factor in my limited ability to interact successfully or build strong relationships.  I don't care where this thread goes, just give me any and all your thoughts.

Have felt this way in the past. I think I am overcoming this as I get to know myself and feel at home inside me.

I've never been able to navigate a male friendship around the romantic, sexual part.  Long story short, although I get along superbly with men, the relationships can't last long because either I don't want to have a romantic relationship or can't have one.  I really am happily married.   Why does it always seem to come to this?  Am I doing something wrong?  Do I have a problem? Or is it true what I have long believed, heterosexual women cannot have "friendships" with heterosexual men?

Interesting because I have had the same problem for a long, long time. Now I believe that is coming to an end. I have my first male friend and there is nothing romantic between us. I believe he is an introvert like me and possibly an INFP. I watch him work and it reminds me of myself. Prefers unsupervised, non-group work and works well alone. He's working on himself too and we talk about that sometimes as well.

Maybe it is choosing the wrong men for friendships? Or maybe your body language and facial expressions say romance?

So there are a few members of the board who I really like and want to know what's up.  I haven't heard from them in a period of time.  My inclination is to write and find out what's happening and why they haven't been on.  When is the socially correct time to show concern?   What is the significant amount of time to have lapsed to warrant a reaction.  I am distracted by the thought that perhaps I am being intrusive or pushy wanting to know what's going on.  They'll get back to the board in their own good time.  I am also distracted with wild thoughts like, something has happened or I said something to offend.   Am I crazy to think there even is an unspoken rule here?

We talked recently on another string about phone calls.  It brought to mind my own limitation which is, I don't know the rule for appropriate length of time for a conversation.  I hate the phone and rarely get on it because of it.    For some reason, I want the other person to determine when the conversation will end (unless I need it to end sooner) but I don't know what the cues are (at least the ones detectable over the phone).  What is an appropriate amount of time to spend on the phone with someone who you are trying to establish or reestablish rapport with?

Speaking on the phone and sending email have got to be the worst forms of communication. You can't see facial expressions. You can't see body language. These two expressions tell communicate loads of information about how long to stay in conversation with someone.

I found these 5 things online about speech.
Pitch
Speed
Volume
Inflection
Enunciation

I found a book online called Etiquette for Dummies. I might get it. It is for business, personal and students.
Here's a review about it:
Good manners matter – and not just during formal events. Etiquette isn’t just about which fork to use or how to hold a teacup. Good manners and etiquette are as important in the supermarket checkout line as they are at a state dinner. They are the key to surviving every human contact with your sense of humor and self-esteem intact. In most cases, it’s just a matter of good old  “Golden Rule” common sense – do unto others as you would have them do unto you[/i]: for example, staying home from a dinner party when you’re sick. And yes, sometimes it is about the right fork or the right form address.

The Golden Rule sounds easy to follow and makes sense. If I don't want someone to take talk for hours on the phone, I shouldn't do that to them. If I don't like being asked certain types of questions, I need to refrain from doing that to others. What I find offensive is probably offensive to others. The best recent example I have of that is my exNgirlfriend asking me what size underwear I wear. I would never ask her that question. I wonder if she would have felt if I asked her that? That's too personal and none of her business.

I did find in Wikipedia that etiquette is unspoken rules. So you are right, there are unspoken rules.

[CeeMee]

Exhuberance!  Yes, that I have.  Particularly when I am on that manic edge.  I like your suggestion there.  I will try to get their involvement next time in keeping the resonance on the up and up.    I do this with women too.  If on the off chance I feel comfortable with a woman, I can get so excited to be connecting that I scare them off, or if they are gay, they think I'm interested.   

That's a wonderful testament to you SF that you have a male who is interested in you for you and not anything romantic or sexual.  I hope to find that one day.

SF I too have heard of the Golden Rule.   I've also heard about the Platinum Rule which states that we should treat people the way that they want to be treated.  The only way I can know is by asking and not assuming that they feel the same way I do about things.  It can be difficult at times because you don't   know how that person will react to your question, but once you have your answer, you can respect that persons wishes.

Having said that, I don't know that I'd be asking about someone's underwear size unless I had a really good reason or circumstance to 

CeeMee

[Sallying Forth]

SF I too have heard of the Golden Rule.   I've also heard about the Platinum Rule which states that we should treat people the way that they want to be treated.  The only way I can know is by asking and not assuming that they feel the same way I do about things.  It can be difficult at times because you don't   know how that person will react to your question, but once you have your answer, you can respect that persons wishes.
CeeMee

The Golden Rule has it's flaw in that many people don't treat themselves very well and violate themselves. Therefore they would violate or be intrusive to others.

The Platinum Rule sounds like it would bypass that flaw.

There might be relationship/communication preferences based on being extroverted like you or introverted like me.

[CeeMee]

Yes SF.  I agree that there probably are different rules  or preferences depending on whether one is introverted or extraverted.    I'm trying to learn some of them.   If   
I called you on the phone after a long time.  How long of a conversation would be sufficient?  What would be the customary questions for you?  Would you expect me to know when you wanted to go?    Would you expect to be the one to signal when it was time to go or should the conversation come to a natural close?  If so, how?

CeeMee

[pguest]

Hi CeeMee

I'm just popping in quickly today and I spotted this

How long of a conversation would be sufficient? 
anything between 2 minutes and about 2 and a half hours. Depends on mood, other obligations, schedule, hunger....I generally need a ciggie break after 2 and half hours.

What would be the customary questions for you? 
Do you have time to talk right now? (important! you could just have got out of the shower to answer the phone.)
How are you? - with serious listening by both parties.
Can I ask you about something? - a signal I'd like help/advice
How did it go with.....(are you okay about something that happened to you)

Would you expect me to know when you wanted to go?
Not unless I said  "well I ought to be getting on with...." "Well my ear's beginning to hurt..." or "zzzzzzz"

Would you expect to be the one to signal when it was time to go or should the conversation come to a natural close?  If so, how?
If you didn't get the hint above, I'd resort to "Look i really have to pee right now and I don't have a cordless phone!!!!" (I've used this one and some people still keep talking. Incredible.)

What happens to you on the phone? Tell me now and I'll be back in a day or so to catch up with you!

Note: if it's either of my parents, i could leave the phone on the table, do some ironing, make coffee and return and they probably wouldn't stop in their flow. How about your friends and family? Got any like that?

must go....I have to..... P

[Sela]

Hi all:

Plucky wrote:

I feel the same way, like a blundering buffalo who went extinct but no one told me.

Then Ceemee wrote:

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Then Hoppy wrote:

I ditto Plucky the buffalo

And all I can say is:

(great long sigh...snort....while pawing the floor)  "Oh!! I've found my heard!!  Thank goodness!!!" (relief icon needed about now ).

It seems to me, growing up in an abusive environment left me ignorant in many of the departments of communication.....understanding/knowing unspoken rules being one of those.  I doubt my manners are as good as they could be and I feel like I've always got to be careful in social situations...to observe and do what others are doing (if it seems ok, that is).  I feel a bit inadequate, I guess, and I'll have to keep learning.

But Plucky's point about most people, (which makes her head queen water buffalo today in my book!! ):

...most people out there have weak spots and insecurities and are not sure how to conduct themselves.  That the ones who don't, are frequently bullies and such.

...is quite validating and true I bet!  People, as far as I can see, aren't thaaaaat picky/demanding of perfection so much as just possibly hoping for consideration (the golden.....platinum rule discussion...I agree).

Being able to laugh at myself has certainly helped me, when I think I've screwed up, along with saying so, (and sometimes finding out my worries were for nothing.....I'm ok....I did ok!!  Hee Haw!!!).

You being concerned with not keeping people on the phone for too long and letting/wanting them to set the time limit makes me think maybe you don't go around tramping all over people's boundaries, Ceemee.  You may feel inadequate about the unspoken rules but you might also be doing ok (heehaw for you!!) and not really know it?

Also, are you sure it's all your fault about the way men/women react to you?  Is it possible you've just run into the wrong men/women? (ones who are not interested in friendship, in a brotherly/sisterly fashion?).  It does take two to tango doesn't it?

Are you sending the wrong messages or are they just not hearing you???
Are they possibly...tramping on your boundaries (by ignoring what you are trying to communicate)???

  Sela

[andromeda]

I too feel like a space alien who is still catching up learning social rules of behavior...

Different groups have different etiquettes. I move between very different social groups, and my work environment is something altogether different.  To some friends I am a 'den mother' or therapist-figure, and when I'm in that role I work very hard to maintain my boundaries while listening and giving feedback...

In the past much of my social behavior was determined by my sense of safety. Now things have progressed to, what is healthy for me? Who is healthy for me to be around socially? How do I deal with people whose communication behaviors trigger fight-or-flight response in me, when I must deal with them (at work, for example)?

I also work hard to NOT TAKE IT PERSONALLY. Most people have lots of stuff going on in their lives. They disappear and reappear from my radar for all sorts of reasons, and very little of it has anything to do with me...This can be hard, because my Nparents treated me like I was invisible, or an obstacle, or a problem to be solved much of the time. So this is a background assumption of how other people see me.

That's the thing that interferes with many of my relationships, really, is how my parents trained me to see myself - as a problem, an obstacle, or unimportant/invisible.

I remind myself that I give to others that which I really want the most for myself - attentive listening, supportiveness, and understanding (N-supply?!!). My task becomes giving myself the time and energy to listen to what I want and need at any given time.

Andromeda

[Plucky]

Hi CeeMee,
This is your herd speaking.
Maybe you are actually giving off some kind of "I will not refuse" message.  I had this problem for a long time with men, and now I have the opposite.    Which is fine with me!

Some men have been taught that they should go ahead and do whatever a woman will let them do.  So if they do not see clear evidence of boundaries, and things are being left to them, they just keep going until they hit a brick wall.  It's a habit.

Maybe just in this area it would pay to change some things.  You can practice what a friend of mine called the LOOK.   I was doing it unconsciously to threatening people who seemed ready to approach, while she sat there like a little deer baby ready to be eaten.  This friend had major boundary issues.   She had none at all.

Just think of something really maddening.   Like the last time you had to renew your driving permit.   Or were kept waiting for hours by a doctor or hairdresser.   Feel that feeling.  Then practice it randomly until you get a good reason to use it.

If the person is not a stranger, you stil need to indicate that there are boundaries around your person.  Not everyone will assume that there are or respect them if they are not pointed out.  The very first time the guy says anything that is not in line with your concept of the relationship, respond then.  You can say, " excuse me?"  or "I don't think so" or "You're kidding, right?".  Have a phrase ready, even if it is not exactly right in the context, your message will get across.  If it was a gesture, such as a touch, move away. look pointedly at his hand or offending body part, or take your hand and remove his hand.  Make eye contact while you do it, so he is clear that it is not to be tried again.  If it is a look, for example he is looking at some part of your body, say "hey!  I'm up here" or "is there something on my shirt?  I noticed you were looking at my blouse".

Do not let it pass or think that it is your fault if the guy tries something with you.  It happens all the time, it's not because you are a buffalo.    It's because you are an attractive woman.   So just take it in your stride and reject the advance firmly but don't make a big deal out of it.

You have the right to reject any attention.   You do not have to have a good reason.    You belong to you, and you get to decide who gets access.  Period.  You do not have to be nice to everyone, or anyone for that matter.  You do not have to be friends with everyone, or anyone.    Not everyone is good enough to be nice to.  Not everyone will be a good friend to you.  Not everyone deserves a chance.  Only a portion of the people out there are people that you should pay attention to or be nice to. Not all.

Hope this is helpful somehow.
Plucky, of the buffalo people

[mudpuppy]

Hi guys,

I really think all this concern about how long to stay on the phone and what to wear or say at just what time is usually self imposed.
Most normal people will make all sorts of allowances as long as you treat them kindly and with respect.
I'll bet you're fretting over this stuff far more than the people you are interacting with. You're probably seeing faux pas where others are seeing nothing.
Normal, decent people will return kindness with kindness.
Ns won't, but the unspoken etiquette of Ns and weirdos should be of no concern as they are self serving traps.
That's why this so called platinum rule is such a strange idea. If we apply it to Ns then we become their slaves. It also can feed the worst parts of human nature in even normal people we interact with.
I think the Golden Rule works just fine. It doesn't say we are to treat others as we treat ourselves but that we are to treat others as we wish to be treated . Now people who lack boundaries and mistreat themselves don't generally wish to be treated that way. They want respect and kindness also.

People put up with all sorts of idiosyncracies in others all the time. That in fact is one of the primary rules of social interaction. I can get off the phone with someone who talked my ear off for an hour and a half and think that the person is great but they have a tendency to jabber. I can get off the phone with somebody who talks precisely the right length of time and think they are a total jerk. Its the content of the conversation not the precise timing of it that counts. If you are of good will and don't worry about your 'performance' you will do fine. If you're not of good will it doesn't matter if you went to finishing school, no one will like you.

mud