Looking for love in the wrong ways

[CeeMee]

These last few weeks I've been struggling with an issue that is breaking my heart.  I need your advice on how to handle this.

My sister is 7 years younger than me.  We were as close as two sisters could be for 35 years.  As many of you already know, she became involved in the church and long story short, she and I are very much distant now.  This is the thing, I am and have been very close to my sister's children.  In fact, I joke that I have four kids because my sister is married to my husband's brother,  they live right next door and my niece and nephew are at our home more often than not.

My niece is thirteen now and quite naturally, she has become very interested in boys.  My daughter has told me some very disturbing things which her cousin shared with her regarding a boy who lives across the way.  She isn't having sex yet, but I can see that could well be the next step if something isn't done.  My dilema is this.  My daughter has confided in me and doesn't want her cousin to know that she told me, but I am thinking I ought to speak to my sister about it.  The other reason I am hesitant is because  a little over a year ago, I warned my sister about letting my niece spend so much time at the home of a neighbor who has all boys, two of which are 13 and 15 years old.

The neighbors are very nice people we've all known for many years now and they are devout Christians as my sister is.  When I told my sister, she just sort of blew me off as being overreactive.  My niece continued to spend time at the boys home and I realized that my discussion with her was to no avail.  As it turns out, the story my daughter told me involved the older son of the neighbors I had warned my sister about.

Should I tell her what I was told or should I let her mother handle it.  My concern is that she will take it the wrong way,  either as an attempt by me to say "I told you so" or she will not believe it and blow it off again.  Meanwhile, I will have betrayed my daughters trust for nothing.  I have considered talking directly with my neice but my daughter said that any time she has tried talking with her cousin she becomes highly defensive and angry.

I have told my sister before that she spends too much time at church and not enough time with her kids, but she ignores this.  The saddest part of it is that what I see happening to my neice is what happened to me when I was a young girl, because my mother wasn't around either.  She is seeking attention,  love  and affection in all the wrong ways. 

Any suggestions are appreciated.   

CeeMee

[Plucky]

Hi CeeMee,
This is a delicate situation and I am so glad that girl has you to look out for her.  And good for your daughter.  She is a keeper!
Your D told you for a reason, - that she wants to save her cousin.  So let's see, how can you do that?

If you talk to your sister she will likely blow it off and/or be offended.   Even if by some miracle she listens, your d's relationship with the cousin may be harmed permanently.

Yiou can talk to the girl.  If feasible, you can tell your story.  That may be the only way to get her attention.

Or you can talk to the parents of the boys.  Who knows what reaction they will have.  You can judge if that suggestion will fly.

Good luck with this and whatever the outcome, still protect and support your niece as best you can.  And try not to even think, I told you so, as everyone will already know that.

Plucky

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hi CM

This is a very tricky situation.  As your sister is in some ways very much like my bio dad, I don't think I would approach her.

Maybe the best way to deal with this is to talk to your daughter again first.  Maybe ask your daughter why she has told you, and then explain to her the importance of this information and as an adult you would appreciate the opportunity to talk to your neice, but you wouldn't do anything without your daughters say so.  If you can get the go ahead from your daughter, then you are not breaking her trust.

Then possibly arrange to go for a coffee with your neice.  It is so tricky because this really needs a back door approach if you know what I mean.  Or maybe even when she's round next time to say to your neice, really casually say, Oh I hear you've got a boyfriend, what's he like?  And if she get's defensive then maybe say, Well, I had a few boyfriends in my younger days, so if you need anyone to talk to, then you know where I am and leave it open for her to talk to you if she needs too.

Sorry I can't be more help CM.

Take care

H&H xx

[Hopalong]

Oh that's a painful one CM. I'm so sorry.
Having your love and attention really may help..and if the boys' parents are as religious as they seem, perhaps they would actually welcome a warning. (If it's presented in their own terms, as a loving concern thing, for all the children involved...)

And I would like to say it's URGENT to give this child information (plus ghastly pictures and tons of detail) on sexually transmitted diseases and birth control, etc.

Because sorry to say, it is possible that she will make those choices anyway. Giving her detailed serious education about the risks could possibly prevent her mistakes from becoming catastrophes...

Hopalong

[Brigid]

CeeMee,
As a woman who was molested by an older boy when I was 9, also looked for love in all the wrong places as a teen--not to mention the mother of a teenage girl--I think it is imperative that you do whatever possible to help your niece.  I appreciate your desire to keep your daughter's confidence, but I think there are things they tell us that we are bound as parents to share with the other adults involved.  I do believe she told you because she wants to to step in and help her cousin.  I don't think you should be the one to talk to your niece unless there is no other recourse.  She is 13 and has no real sense of what trouble she could be heading for, nor will she really hear your warnings.  If it were me, I would first approach your sister and tell her what your daughter has said.  I would tell her that if she doesn't take you seriously, you will speak to the parents of the boy.  Ideally your sister would be the one to meet with the boys' parents and in turn, they would all sit down with their own children and have it out and set some rules.  However, many parents are in denial of their children's potentially dangerous behaviors, and perhaps neither set of parents will take this seriously.  If they don't, you have done what you could. 

No matter what tactic you use, you could potentially permanently harm the relationship with your sister.  I'm sorry that you are having to make this very difficult decision, but bless you for caring about this child and I pray you can help her before things get too far.  She is way to young to be having to make these very adult decisions about relationships and intimate behaviors.  She has no idea of the permanent effects of these behaviors at this young age.  I hope you can help.

Hugs,

Brigid

[Portia]

Hi CeeMee

I tend to go with H&H on this: talk to your daughter some more; try and see if niece wants to talk to anyone….

You said my daughter said that any time she has tried talking with her cousin she becomes highly defensive and angry.

So she really is looking for love in the wrong place?

I did this when I was 13 and ended up in a bus shelter thinking “this is too far for me, I’m too young”. I decided that myself. I liked the attention from the lad who was 19 but I knew how far I would go otherwise, and it wasn’t very far. If anyone had tried to tell me to stop it, I would have bitten their head off – my body at 13 was my responsibility and under my control – no-one else’s.

Maybe one option is to simply be there for your niece when she wants it and needs it. Make it plain that you are not judging what is right or wrong. If she’s looking for love in the wrong places, maybe you can show her what real love looks like instead? By demonstrating with your daughter perhaps, having those kind of conversations around your niece?

If she spends a lot time at your house, maybe you can pay her more attention, listen to what she says and respond to her adult to adult (as opposed to talking to her as a child).

Children respond to respect (better than being told what to do). I guess we all do.

I wouldn’t bother trying to bring your sister around I’m afraid. The kids are the priority and your sister doesn’t seem to know this. If you can demonstrate good emotional relating to your niece, it might change her life now. Good luck!

[CeeMee]

Thank you all for those replies.  This IS a difficult situation and one I plan to give more thought to and not decide anything until after Christmas. 

Thanks Brigid and Portia for sharing those very personal stories.  I wish our stories could all be considered atypical but truth is, they are typical.  And history just keeps on repeating itself.  How scary it is to see myself in this lost child.  She globs on to anyone who gives her the slightest bit of attention but even more so when it is a boy.  Over the weekend we attended a family party and there was a male cousin there around 20 who she sat with the entire 8 hours.  She never moved and hung on to his every word.  I recognized all the behaviors

Talking to the neighbors about this is definitely out of the question.  The family could never digest this.   It would be too humiliating for them to even consider the thought.   My niece may not be having sex  now, but my gut tells me it is just a matter of time as she now has a new love in her life.  Seems she met a boy at school who calls her all the time.  According to my daughter, she is head over heals for this guy.  My daughter met him a few days ago and she said that he didn't make a good first impression.  Seems the boy was commenting about a class mate of theirs and told the girls that  the reason he didn't like the classmate was because "he is fat, and he is black."  Needless to say, this didn't sit well with my daughter and she challenged it.  She told the boy "did you know that my cousin and I are both part black?"  The boy replied "so what." (the girls don't look African American at all.  This was true of me as well when I was a kid and it resulted in many racist remarks being made in my presence).

Later my daughter asked her cousin how she could like a boy who was prejudiced against her own people and my neice rationized it by saying "he didn't mean anything by that."   Okay, these are the tell tale signs of a child who will grow up with low self esteem and self hatred.  How many women have I seen in my lifetime who are willing to accept any abuse just to be with a man.  They all probably started out with little compromises of this sort.  I KNOW I DID!

Over the years, I have remained focused on making  sure  my own daughter grew up knowing her self worth.  I validate her feelings every day.  I talk to her every day.  I show her I trust her judgment.  I stand up for her when she needs support or protection (sometimes from teachers believe it or not).  What are some of the things that you all have done in raising your girls with a strong sense of self?

  Having a strong sense of self is the singlemost important factor in determining the quality of a woman's life imo.

CeeMee

[Plucky]

CeeMee,
is there any way you can get away with this girl and your daughter for a weekend for some quality time?  Where you can have girl time and she can witness a healthy relationship and you'll have lots of time to just talk, such as campng?
Plucky

[Hopalong]

CeeMee,
Your daughter is very very lucky.
I did a terrible job. I love my daughter with all my heart and she knows it.
But I know I made so many psychological mistakes with her out of my unawareness.
I did listen, I did validate her feelings...but I was also overbearing and I did not protect her from the influence of her NGrandmother, my own mother, who swarmed into her childhood too powerfully. I was still under the Nspell and also did not see the ways I had internalized Nspots of my own.

Now my sweet girl has been down dark streets and has developed a toughness that breaks my heart at times. I know I wasn't the only factor...but oh if only I'd known then what I know now.

We do love each other very much, but sometimes my girl shows her own lack of empathy and I feel a chill in my heart. My prayer is that what she is in her 20s may soften with time as she grows wiser, and the tender-hearted girl who volunteered for burned children, wrote to death row inmates, and loves animals... will resurface.

Sometimes she's very hard with me. So defended it hurts. But she is only 25...

Love,
Hopalong PS--I was with dear friends today when they got a call that their son, a young man with CP whom they'd raised with SUCH love and intelligence that he was a fountain of happy self-esteem...suddenly died. It was devastating. They are 70, and were driving south for Christmas when they detoured to meet me. We dealt with it--all the calls-- in a restaurant in a little mountain town, and went to a next-door church where the pastor helped comfort them. Then they turned around and drove six hours back home with broken hearts. I'm glad I was with them, I will never forget the look on her face when her husband spoke to the emergency medical technician who was with their boy.

[CeeMee]

Hoppy,

I'm so sorry to hear about your friends' loss.  That must have been hard for you to see them in such unexpected and consuming pain.  How fortunate  that you were there to help them get through it.    Without a doubt, even though I am fortunate in that I've never experienced it myself, loss of a child is THE most painful experience imaginable.

There are different types of loss and the one you describe with your own daughter is painful too.  I can tell from your post how much you love her.  Was she your first born?  My daughter is my second born and so all my mistakes my son must bear.  Although I think both turned out to be great kids, I always wonder what the future holds.  Hopefully, she will be the first generation in my family to make the right choice in love the first time around.  Every single woman in my family has been divorced once or more.  I want so much for her to bypass that pain.  Is that weird that my greatest concern for my daughter is that she not endure the pain that a bad relationship brings.  This is probably my own stuff from my life that I'm projecting onto her.

Hoppy, that tenderhearted girl that you speak of IS your daughter.  She's just on a voyage trying to find herself.  We've all had to search for that inner child again.  She's lucky to have you there for her, just loving her.  I truly believe that we all make mistakes but we do the best we can and it is always better than what our parents did with us. 

CeeMee


 

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hiya (((((((((((((((((((CM)))))))))))))))) (((((((((((((((((Hoppy))))))))))))))

Hoppy... I am so so sorry to hear of you and your friends loss.  My thoughts are with you all at this time!  At 25, your daughter still has many years of changing and growing.  Majority of people in their 20's lose empathy.  I know I did... if I think back to my early 20's, I was living in a houseshare with 3 other people.  They had to put up with my messiness, my loud music, my going out etc etc.  Miraculously they are still friends with me!

CM.... has anything happened with your neice yet?  What did you decide to do?

Take care

H&H xx

[Brigid]

Hoppy,
I'm so sorry about your friend's loss of their child.  Something I could not imagine surviving.  I'm sure they were grateful to have you with them at such a difficult time.

CM,
Regarding giving our daughters a sense of self--I guess that is an evolving thing.  My daughter is 17 and has always been (IMH, but biased opinion) pretty much the perfect child.  I have never had to discipline her, even as a little girl and she is very conscience of doing the right thing.  Thankfully, she has continued to surround herself with the very wonderful friends she developed in middle school and as many of their classmates are choosing to make such not great decisions about drugs, alcohol and sex, she and her friends continue to stay away from those choices.  She works very hard in school, her teachers all love her and she is always kind to animals and children. 

My contribution has been to love her unconditionally, support all her activities and interests, and praise her accomplishments--no matter how large or small.  She has been brought up with religion in her life, which has also introduced opportunities to travel on mission trips and serve those less fortunate.  I could not be more proud of her and everyone who knows her always tells me what a wonderful girl she is.  I'm sure her father's sudden departure from our family will have some lasting impact, but I have devoted myself to getting my children through that experience with as little trauma as possible.  So far, they both seem to be doing fine and always know they have one parent who is there for them no matter what.

I feel very blessed to have two children who are so wonderful and never take that for granted.

Brigid

[mudpuppy]

Hi CeeMee,

I may be forgetting some part of the story but what is your BIL like?
Can you approach him or is he even still with your sisiter?
This is probably more a job for a mother but in a pinch fathers come in handy sometimes.

mud

[Hopalong]

Hi again,
She's my only child.
Thanks for the hopeful note.

I think her empathy for the underdog is untouched by her trials...but on occasion I feel like HER underdog. She is struggling hard for a sense of self, maybe overcompensating, like a pendulum swings. I just need to keep faith in her.

We did have a 90% wonderful visit last weekend, though, so I'm very grateful for that.
And it's true...thanks H&H for reminding me, there can be massive change between where one is in one's 20s and later...Sure has been true for me.

CeeMee, you are a champion and that child is so lucky to have you as an ally, whatever form it takes.
Hopalong

[CeeMee]

Thanks for all your responses.  I'm still mulling things over.  Probably won't make a final decision til after the holidays but my inclination is to talk with my niece.  As suggested, maybe I'll take her out for coffee and see what's going on with her.  After discussion with my husband, I've concluded without a doubt that talking to my sister is out of the question.  One thing I do know about my sister (and this was true before she became involved with the church but even moreso now) is that she doesn't take ANY personal responsibility.  She is likely to blame my niece and punish her rather than think about why she is doing this and if perhaps she may be responsible in some way.  My husband concurs and although he thought about talking with his brother, he decided that it would not be a good idea.  The last time we tried talking with them, it didn't turn out to well for my nephew. 

One night they took off to c hurch and left my nephew playing at a neighbors house.  When the neighbors left for some appointment, he was locked out and had no where to go.  He came knocking on my door at around 8:00 and asked if he could stay with us because he was locked out and his mom and dad left him alone.  I became angry because I could tell from his voice that he felt abandoned.  When my sister came home I went and spoke with her and her husband.  I explained that I found it unacceptable to have my nephew show up on my doorstep in the dark complaining about being left alone and locked out.  I aked why this happened.  They immediately blamed their son saying he didn't tell them that the neighbor was going out that evening.  I suggested that maybe they should be getting those facts since they are the parents and not leave it up to the child (he's ten and has been left alone since he was 8 or 9).  Well long story short, I am certain that he got chastised for  what happened.  In their minds, this was all his fault.  The next night, he called and asked for my daughter to come stay with him at his house because he was all alone.  They were off to church again.  The solution to the problem was to make sure he was in the house and not out when they left.  The issue of being left home alone doesn't even register with them.   

Thanks for listening folks.  I appreciate the support and suggestions. 

Thanks Brigid for sharing those thoughts about instilling self confidence and respect.  It has obviously paid off with your kids.  I too feel blessed and don't take it for granted (and don't plan on having any more either, lest my luck run out and I have that last high needs and difficult child)

CeeMee