Growing up in public

[Healing&Hopeful]

Portia (((((((((hugs))))))))))

Keep us posted.... I'm guessing you've given this a lot of thought... did you decide anything?

H&H xx

[Portia]

Hiya all.  Your replies are all so helpful, and taken together, add up to wayyyy more than the sum of the parts! I’m picking out some particulars to answer/acknowledge. Things have moved on but I’m errrrr reviewing.

Sela: Why is big brother trying to get baby girl to do what mommy wants?
That’s my question. This is new and odd. Not happened before. Interesting.

Mud: Perhaps instead of analysing and learning all sorts of ways to interact it would be easier to learn to form a mental iron curtain. It stays up and out of sight while interacting with decent people and descends when dealing with dear ol mom and her cohort, leaving an emotionless dead pan Portia.

I can see your point Mud. That mental iron curtain. It’s a tricky thing. I used to have a steel sheet that clanked down in my head. Useful dissociating for whatever reasons there were, and I don’t know all of them. I still probably have a problem deciding who are decent people and who aren’t. How do you decide who are ‘safe’ people? How can you be sure? Ahh the ‘ick’ factor yes. And other feelings. Mom is not safe, heck I know that. Is he her cohort? That is the question. Just how unsafe is he? I don’t know. I don’t like not knowing.

Idea! He rang me. Really unusual. He paid me some attention (sort of?). I still want attention? Maybe I’m just curious.

H&H: (I just typed mouther... possibly more accurate?)   hahaaaaaa! I like that. I type odd things too. I used to have problems typing the word ‘pension’ in my job.  Just a wee transposition in the middle of the word, before spell-check was automatic. Ooops.

Mud: I don't think, based on your post, that there is much doubt why he called you. I'm sure its exactly what you suspect.
Yep, but it’s so new and unexpected I have to deal with it. Not jump to conclusions or make assumptions.

Well, if you like it then stop complaining and just enjoy yourself. Just kidding.
Hey! I know you’re joking but this is interesting. Were you told this as a kiddie? Stop – complaining/being sad/angry/upset. Stop feeling. Lots of folks grew up with this. Having their feelings denied.

but I think you're going down a dark and endless tunnel seeking to understand and analyze your mom.

Big difference that you’ve caused me to realise. And it’s quite a measurement of how I’ve changed too (gives self pat on back). When I got the message, my brain took no time to say: mother is misbehaving. Mother is wrong, if it is her behind this. There’s no hesitation now in me knowing exactly what my mother is like. I’m not analysing her in this event – not at all. I’m questioning uncle’s sudden involvement, and my own reactions. But I’m not questioning her motives. I know what they are! For sure! Which is great. Thanks Mud.

CeeMee: Are you upset with yourself, your mom or your uncle?
Great question. On the face of it, angry at her for involving him. Healthy anger towards her. Underneath – lots more!.....

Plucky: that Everest of analysis
love it! I'm going to use that phrase. And I do like a challenge.

Marta: Which online library has Alice Miller BTW
Sorry I might have misled you there – I only reserved the books online; I still have to plod over to the real library to collect them. It was a really small achievement!

Sela: Maybe analysing is actually a sign of recovering?  Maybe, before this....you might have said: "Ok (in a cute, high pitch tone), I'll call" and immediately dialed the number, without even questioning what you were doing or why?

Before - I don’t know but probably. Maybe. Don’t know. It hasn’t happened before. No-one has ever intervened like this before....except....step-dad This is why it really threw me.

YOU CAN ONLY CONTROL HOW YOU REACT TO THIS STUPID STUFF OF THEIRS
Oh so true. I can’t control anything else even if I desperately want to. And part of me of course wants to! I know what’s best for other people and I want them to do as I say!!! Hahahahaha. I’ve still got some of this nagging away. Control is such a biggie. I caught myself giving unasked-for advice recently and actually felt bad about it for a whole day. Even though it was darn good advice. Funnily enough the recipient listened and decided to act - not what I suggested he do, but an action to avert the possible bad consequences of his decision. So I felt better. And useful. And he didn’t hate me! Tick.

Hoppy:
And when we feel shamed, we feel infuriated, because toxic shame represents a violation of our sense of ourselves, which is fragile.

So we have to fight really hard for ourselves.

Like, maybe you weren't just fighting off a phone call. You were fighting off a huge guilt trip.

Absolutely. Your post is the reason I went back to John Bradshaw last night – the poem “My name is toxic shame”. That’s powerful stuff. You know it? I didn’t feel that poem before, I was intellectual-reading, but now I get it.

It’s such hard work. Reading and re-reading and thinking and feeling and knowing that words mean something different when you re-read – then a bit of shame! How could I have missed that? How could I have not understood that? Why am I so stupid? Why can’t I see all this when everyone else can?

I let myself off those hooks, no worries. Do you see some black and white in my thinking? Let me know. I like to know, as you know! And I can’t see it myself……

[Portia]

Oh! What did I actually DO?

I thought some more.

Sometimes I feel Bad for Thinking So Much. Sometimes I tell myself that I should just forget it, go out, do something. Sometimes I feel very Guilty for typing on this board. I feel like I’m Wasting my Time.

Then I look at those feelings, thoughts, beliefs and say: says who? If I enjoy being here, if I learn from being here, if I learn from thinking, if I learn from analysing – if I remain curious and talkative and vulnerable and honest

isn’t that okay?

Are we allowed just to do and think what we want to?

[Healing&Hopeful]

Of course that's ok.... Why can't you think some more?  Is there a timeframe on this, a deadline?

I don't think so.....

Are we allowed just to do and think what we want to?

Portia....lol... (Said in sternest H&H voice... if I wore classes I'd lower them!)  How many times have you told me to trust in my own thoughts, feelings and opinions?

[Portia]

I did DO something but now I’m thinking of a whole load of other questions. How about these statements:

“All this thinking about the past, it’s not doing you any good. You’ll just upset yourself more.”

“I’m worried that you’re becoming addicted to that board/the internet.”

“Some things are best left alone/unanswered/buried.”

“She / he is an old person now. There’s no point in upsetting them.”

“Wouldn’t you like to be doing something productive instead of wasting your time…?”

and this absolutely real one from a qualified nurse at a doctor’s surgery:

“So no more therapy for you! Go out and play tennis instead.”

It’s a wonder we survive at all!

[Portia]

hahaha I'm on a roll:

Warning - while you were reading a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.
Toxic shame! Why would I wish to review my post? 

[Portia]

Hiya H&H how are you doing? How's my friend the adult abused child? AAC for short I suppose. A while ago we used to talk about ACONs here - Adult Child Of Narcissist. I'm glad that's fallen by the wayside. Too much like Acorn. I-am-not-an-acorn

I am an adult abused child. It's just a fact. Or is it an opinion? I don't care.

there's more.....

[Portia]

(((H&H))) is there a timeframe on this, a deadline? I don't think so.....
I'm soooo glad you said that. Thank you

[Healing&Hopeful]

I'm good thanks Portia hon....

I did DO something but now I’m thinking of a whole load of other questions. How about these statements:

“All this thinking about the past, it’s not doing you any good. You’ll just upset yourself more.”
Ok... this could be true.... you could upset yourself more.  But is it a crime?  And what happens afterwards.... sometimes it helps to upset to be able to move forward....

“I’m worried that you’re becoming addicted to that board/the internet.”
Are you?  Are you worried about becomming addicted to the board?  If you do/are, who will it hurt.... No one.

“Some things are best left alone/unanswered/buried.”
I have trouble with this one myself.... how do we move on if we bury them and leave it unanswered?

“She / he is an old person now. There’s no point in upsetting them.”
She may be an old person.... but why should you worry about upsetting them?

“Wouldn’t you like to be doing something productive instead of wasting your time…?”
Wouldn't we all.... depends what you class as wasting your time.  Working on yourself.... that's hardly wasting your time in my book.... you know, just my opinion!

and this absolutely real one from a qualified nurse at a doctor’s surgery:

“So no more therapy for you! Go out and play tennis instead.”
Belting a tennis ball around could be theraputic... how to get all that pent up aggression out!

.........  All this from an AAC  

[Sela]

Hiya P:

You have such a great brain!!  

Why is big brother trying to get baby girl to do what mommy wants?
That’s my question. This is new and odd. Not happened before. Interesting.

Next question:  What if baby girl won't dooooooo what big brother and mommy want?

It hasn’t happened before. No-one has ever intervened like this before....except....step-dad    This is why it really threw me.

So does it feel the same but different now?  The same or similar or is this sending signals making you want to scream:

"This is like step-dad.....like what step-dad would do......like what happened when step-dad....!!!!!!!"

Different because of time and place and it being a different person...not step-dad? Projection or red flag?

This is tricky stuff eh?  Thinking is good, I think ("It's fun to have fun!!", said the Cat in the Hat).

I caught myself giving unasked-for advice recently and actually felt bad about it for a whole day. Even though it was darn good advice. Funnily enough the recipient listened and decided to act - not what I suggested he do, but an action to avert the possible bad consequences of his decision. So I felt better. And useful. And he didn’t hate me! Tick.

You're very good at beating yourself up needlessly for stuff that hasn't done any harm whatsoever eh?
Glad you decided you are useful and feel better about it all.

What kind of person hates someone for giving them unwanted advice??
How many times in your life have you been given unwanted advice and did you hate the person who gavie it?

When that happened to me I felt like asking the person to refrain but I also believed they were trying to help.
But......would you or I do that?  Are we honest enough to say:  "Hey!  Thanks but no thanks!".  Or is it just common courtesy to listen and thank them politely and then choose what to do?   Neither thing will cause death, I bet.  Or hate (not in healthy people).

Intention does mean something, doesn't it?  It does count?  Didn't you intend to try to help?  Do you see giving advice as controlling?  Do they havvvvvvvvve to follow the advice?

You're not bad P.  Not a bad girl at all.

Why am I so stupid? Why can’t I see all this when everyone else can?

How many times do I ask myself this?  It's helping me to see you write it.....this is what passed through your head right?  Me too.  Passes through mine all the time.  And it's work to fight these kinds of thoughts off eh?  Glad you let yourself "off those hooks".

Truth is.  Neither you nor I are stupid.  So why do we think stuff like this sometimes?  For me.....I feeeeeeeeeel stupid......it's a real feeling or feelings that arise with these thoughts ( Imagine the kindergarten teacher trying to explain that one to the class?  "Now class.....we all have many feelings.  Happy, sad, angry, stupid.....  Little Johnny:  "What's feeling stupid like?"   Teacher:  "It's icky".  

Emotions take over and interfere in thinking and then thoughts take over and interfere in emotions.  That's my take on it.  It's not stupidity.....not a lack of brain cell power......it's an actual over riding of thinking with feeling and then one kind of thought persists generating certain persistent feelings....like a switch in train tracks or something...redirecting thought and feeling (there's probably a much better example than that but I can't think of it!!).   Hey!  Maybe I ammm stupid!!!  That would explain a few things.  No. No. That's not right either.  I just believe I'm stupid....because I'm not perfect and then, usually, I end up challenging that belief/the thoughts that lead me there and I soothe myself.  Thanks P.  I'm not the only one maybe?

If I enjoy being here, if I learn from being here, if I learn from thinking, if I learn from analysing – if I remain curious and talkative and vulnerable and honest                     isn’t that okay?

Sounds good to me.  Ok......think of the opposite.  What if:

You didn't come here and post.  You didn't learn a thing from being here.  Didn't learn from thinking.  Didn't analyse anything (just went around bumping into one experience after another....in some robotic state).  What if you stopped being curious and didn't talk and kept yourself very safe by never being vunerable, never opening yourself up, or leaving yourself open?  What if you weren't honest?

Would you like yourself or any of that better?  Ok.....so I know how to think in black and white too.  Too well.
But I bet you'll get my drift.  Even leaning more toward that way would be less healthy.....less enriching....less okay.  IMO.

How about these statements:

“All this thinking about the past, it’s not doing you any good. You’ll just upset yourself more.”

“I’m worried that you’re becoming addicted to that board/the internet.”

“Some things are best left alone/unanswered/buried.”

“She / he is an old person now. There’s no point in upsetting them.”

“Wouldn’t you like to be doing something productive instead of wasting your time…?”

If there is any truth to these statements, can you handle it?  Will you consider making changes to correct whatever you believe is not best for you/others?

If these statements are all a honking bag of hogwash, will you discard them?  Ignor them?  Foget them and decide not to let them upset you any more?

and this absolutely real one from a qualified nurse at a doctor’s surgery:
“So no more therapy for you! Go out and play tennis instead.”

Qualified?  Doubtful.  Not quality either.  Did you take this to heart?  So sorry if that happened.  It's not up to such people to make such decisions, is it?  Was she just abusing her position of power?

Sounds like something a nanny might say to a child:

"No more candy for you young lady!  Off you go to the play ground!"

Ooooo.  Gives me a yucky feeling.  "Good night noisse!!!"  (Archie Bunker).

Goofy nurse.  Needs retraining.  Maybe that wouldn't help.  Needs a spanking ( ).  Oh no, not really.  Wouldn't help either.  Needs a brain transplant.  That might work!

  Sela

[Portia]

What if baby girl won't dooooooo what big brother and mommy want?
Nothing. Nothing!

Projection or red flag?
Possibly both

Intention does mean something, doesn't it?  It does count?  Didn't you intend to try to help?  Do you see giving advice as controlling?  Do they havvvvvvvvve to follow the advice?
Thanks Sela. I worked out this one. I mean, I worked out the interaction between me and this person. It’s not me, it’s him. I keep catching icky feelings from him and I worked out why. He’s telling me to back off his brain and that’s okay. It’s his brain!

The nurse? Just young, inexperienced and yet again, flinging her icky feelings my way. Therapy? Good grief, call the men in white coats!

There’s a lot of fear out there.
Love, P

[Hopalong]

Hey Miz Portia,
I think you are on a marathon of awareness, a real and really impressive growth spurt.
(You may be exhausted after a bit, but this is good stuff. I think it's going to sink in and stregthen you.)

And I agree with everybody who says there's nothing whatsoever wrong with you thinking so hard.
You're just thinking out loud (here) is all, and helping everyone else while you do.

So thank YOU.

Hugs,
Hopalong

[Plucky]

“All this thinking about the past, it’s not doing you any good. You’ll just upset yourself more.”
Thinking about the past is not upsetting in itself, it's WHAT you are thinking about the past.  It's those mean messages you are giving your poor put-upon self.

“I’m worried that you’re becoming addicted to that board/the internet.”
It's great to be addicted to something that is legal, not harmful to the health, and virtually free, isn't it!

“Some things are best left alone/unanswered/buried.”
Well.  Best for whom.  The perpetrators?

“She / he is an old person now. There’s no point in upsetting them.”
If you don't upset them now, you may not have another chance.  Go for it!

“Wouldn’t you like to be doing something productive instead of wasting your time…?”
No.  I'm a slacker at heart.  And you Pluckies out there, implying that I'm too analytical....just because you can't sustain a long post/thought doesn't mean it's a bad thing!  [Actually, I just meant that you should not reach analysis paralysis, and listen to your gut.   And follow your gut.  Analysis can go anywhere (and often does) but the gut doesn't lie, or rationalise.)

“So no more therapy for you! Go out and play tennis instead.”
Great prescription!  So my club fees will be paid by health insurance?

I thnk I saw someone calling themselves stupid up here.  Well let's say worst case scenario...we are stupid.  Is that something we ought to blame ourselves for?

Plucky 

[Portia]

Hopalong:
Thanks so much for the toxic shame direction. Much needed light shining on all of my emotions.

Sela:
repeating what you said to get it into my head:
You're very good at beating yourself up needlessly for stuff that hasn't done any harm whatsoever eh?
Yes yes yes so…..I’ll beat myself up about that! Haha. See that TS just go whoooosh over my head? Love it. 

How many times in your life have you been given unwanted advice and did you hate the person who gavie it?
Only two people really did this to me. Okay. I get it. And it wasn’t advice was it? No. No. I was told it was advice.

Yeah. Feeeeling stupid is not being stupid. Good. More TS.

What if you stopped being curious and didn't talk and kept yourself very safe by never being vunerable, never opening yourself up, or leaving yourself open?  What if you weren't honest?

You know what I want to know? I want to know: how many people are like me/us. How many people are ‘balanced’. How many people are like those closed up people? What does that boil down to……where do I fit in? Meaning…..what is my role? What can I do that no-one else can do? yeah I guess I mean that. I am getting there.

H&H and Plucky, I agree with you both. I laughed out loud:

“She / he is an old person now. There’s no point in upsetting them.”
If you don't upset them now, you may not have another chance.  Go for it!

[Actually, I just meant that you should not reach analysis paralysis, and listen to your gut.   And follow your gut.  Analysis can go anywhere (and often does) but the gut doesn't lie, or rationalise.) Thanks Plucky.

REVELATION TO SELF

This occurred to me and it felt like being struck by a big shaft of sunlight. I received something from mother which is basically a veiled request to attend something and adore her like her mother could have. My thoughts were: sheeesh, how sad, she really wants me to be her mom; I’m not being her mom; however, she has made a real achievement here, maybe I could acknowledge it?; it wouldn’t hurt me to do something; hmmm maybe I should go? And then the ray of sunlight:

I don’t want to!!!!!!!! Shazzzam. Hahahahaha! Sorry folks, so simple, so trite and yet sooooooo about what I feel. And that it’s okay to feel and do what I want to. Or what I don’t want to.

I’m going to practice: “No thanks, I don’t want to.”

No reasons, no excuses, no nothing. Just what I don’t want. And the sun is shining today too! This is so simple and so complicated.

Thanks all for helping. You help so much.

[Hopalong]

Awww, Portia.
Hope you know how much you help by sharing your thought-stream.
You're one of those people who makes me feel stronger in myself.

Here, wanna help me with something? A really complicated huge thing?

I can't figure out how to make the purple Quote thing work. Everytime I hit Quote, even if I've hightlighted just a short little part of somebody's post...it quotes the whole thing. What am I doing wrong? Or is that the way it's supposed to work? (You get the entire post quoted whether you like it or not and then you have to delete everything you don't want to show?) Is it like a tag where you have to poke the Quote thing at the beginning and end of the part you wanna quote? I haven't tried that yet...(dunno html).

There's a deep one for you.

 
Hugs,
Hops