Message board wounds

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Many of us on this board can find at the deepest layers of our selves (if you consider the self to be onion-like) little or nothing of value.  (See my post Bump, Bump, Bump http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3/index.php?topic=148.0  for example).  This is not a misread of memory, but a realistic imprint of the textual and subtextual messages we received from family, peers, and others.  These wounds are scarred over, and we try (sometimes desperately) to keep them closed.   We are not always successful however, particularly in the face of criticism—even when the criticism comes from people we do not know very well.

The result is almost unbearable (if not unbearable) pain and despair as our worthlessness and voicelessness are fully exposed.  (Therapy, in fact, results in the exposing of this pain—and resisting the inclination to re-cover it quickly—so the wound can heal naturally over time in the context of a new loving attachment.)

From time to time, as a result of conflict and disagreement, we see wounds open up on the board.  The immediate natural inclination to such an event is to defend our positions/selves, quickly to re-cover the injury, to say in effect:  “you are wrong about me…I am not like that…I have value.”  The stakes—the viability of the self—are incredibly high.  My hope, however, is that we can also use these wounds to self-observe—I’m not referring just to the participants in the conflicts, but the readers as well.  Look at the vehemence and passion required to protect/restore our selves.  Understand it, qualitatively and quantitatively, as a measure of the protection we needed and lacked from critical (both meanings) people in our pasts.  Think about the destruction done to our selves because historically we had no protection.  Talk about it, cry about it, own it.  Here, we are all fighting for our lives.

Richard 

[movinon]

Mmmmmmmmm,

Nicely put

[jordanspeeps]

Dr. G,

I really, really needed that.  I'm still crying, and have been all last night and today.  Once the tears start, it's frightening how steadily and painfully they flow.  It's come to passionate, gutteral, screams as of late.  All those years of denial robbed me of the opportunity to ponder or to bemoan my situation.  So here I am, in reality, now so completely weak, fragile, scathingly angry and hurt.  In the past days/months I've processed so many negative emotions, I think I know what people who consider suicide feel. I would never leave my sweet, little girl all alone with no mommy, though.  But, I can also relate to that worthless, value-less feeling at the core of myself. I expressed this very thing to my husband just this afternoon.

I've never felt so desperate and destitute, as I have since learning of this NPD sickness in my parents/family.  I want to move on and quell these emotions but sometimes they effervesce straight to the top and explode.  I've been arguing with my husband and not very productive at work. I just got a letter to come back to my OB/GYN for a biopsy, am not sleeping well, and I'm yoga breathing to stave off panic attacks.  I'm not sure why I'm baring my soul, but I just really need all the crap of my life to go OUT and some of the GOOD STUFF to get inside.  I just feel so ill-equipped for being capable of getting it most times... here lately.  I did not have these problems when I was in denial. I used to think my "life" and family's way of being was actually normal and OK.  As a matter of life and death, do I believe I am going to have to honestly, openly, deal with my short-comings and fears and pain.

This evening, my husband and daughter brought this Hallmark card home to me:
 
From time to time, we all lose sight of who we are.
Especially then, it helps to be reminded that each of us is a shining star, a miracle of light and potential.
You are a person of amazing inner strength and courage.
Trust the light in you heart to illuminate your path.

My five year old couldn't understand why I burst into tears.  (She never really sees me cry).  I thanked her, gave her the biggest hug, and got my butt outta bed.  Thanks Hubby, Thanks Hallmark, thanks Dr. G.  I really really really needed that tonight.

Tiffany

[Plucky]

Dr. G, thank you for posting this.   I can't say any more right now.
Plucky

[Portia]

Thanks for your post Richard. About this:

at the deepest layers.. of our selves little or nothing of value. This is not a misread of memory, but a realistic imprint of the textual and subtextual messages we received from family, peers, and others. 

“This is not a misread of memory” really hits home with me and confirms what struck me last night. I shall put that elsewhere because it was an aha moment. “Realistic imprint” makes sense to me.


Tiffany:

I'm not sure why I'm baring my soul, but I just really need all the crap of my life to go OUT and some of the GOOD STUFF to get inside.  I just feel so ill-equipped for being capable of getting it most times... here lately. 

Me too. I felt stupid and worthless and so ignorant and so emotional compared to everyone else here. True. I still get toxic stuff. All the time. It all re-cycles and each time it comes up, we just have to deal with it. Like a physical illness. If we keep wanting to vomit up poison, well, vomit it up. If we keep it inside we poison ourselves. I hope I can cope with vomit here, other peoples’ as well as my own. We all do it once in a while. We’re all human and we’re in it together. 

I did not have these problems when I was in denial. I used to think my "life" and family's way of being was actually normal and OK. 

Me too. Rarely, sometimes, I have a kind of wistful view of that time... When I acted out and ground my teeth every night, got illnesses, had muscle-spasm all day across my neck….I think it gets better, not worse. Although some days it might feel unbearable. Change is the constant!

As a matter of life and death, do I believe I am going to have to honestly, openly, deal with my short-comings and fears and pain.

Your short-comings? Or the short-comings of those you raised you? What happened to you does not constitute what makes ‘you’, you. It’s what you do with what was handed to you. Also: A mistake is not a person, it is an event.

Fears and pain are important things to deal with. Talk about them. Start a thread. Please use your voice Tiffany.

[movinon]

Tiffany - it sounds like these are godd, CLEANSING tears.  Let them flow.  It's valuable for your daughter to see also.  It does not mean you're weak.  You are feeling your feelings!!! Congtatulations!!!!

You're right though...you need to fill up that empty space.  Ask for what you need.  Have your girlfriends nurture you.  Take a quite walk and take in nature, but fill up that space you've made empty w/ something good and with intention before it gets filled in w/ something negative.

Hang in there.

Movinon

[Sela]

Dear Dr. G:

I'm trying to understand your post.  I think, to simplify it, you're saying that something can be learned/gained/healed by looking at our role in conflicts that arise on the board??? (and even by those reading and not involved in the actual conflict).  And that is....we can look for and discover which wounds from the past have been exposed and reflect on the real imprint all of that has left on us, deep inside and how that imprint is of little or no value (usually)?
I can be way off, so please let me know if I've misinterpreted or misunderstood.

Ok....so I'm looking at my role in the conflict.  I'm looking for the wound that was opened (deep down in the layers, and it's quite true what you say....it's way in there, way back there from the past.....my childhood).  I think I posted about this in the "anything" thread but I'll repeat for clarity.  I didn't realize really that I was peeling layers but now that I think about it, I guess that's what I did over there.  But I might have covered them up too quickly.  I'm not sure.

When I feel dismissed by someone, the wound that opens is one that was created by my parents who often ...frequently.....habitually yelled:  "Shut-up!!" at me, my sibblings and at eachother (mainly at eachother....to be more than fair) during my childhood.  When someone defines everyone on this board into two groups, and chooses one group.....when I ask which group have they decided I'm in .....when the answer that is given is......that I should go figger it out myself and the thread is then locked....I feel dismissed.  I feel like I've been told to "Shut-up!!" (just not in those words).

I felt dismissed when that happened here.

So ya, you're absolutely right....my feeling stems from that deeply covered wound from way back.  But back then, I was little.  I couldn't defend myself.  I couldn't even complain without something dangerous happening or something even more painful.   I was afraid back then and my coping mechanism was to hide, do something to drown out the pain, and as I grew older, to leave.  But never, never, ever was it safe to say:  "Hey!  I won't shut up.  That's rude. That's mean.  That's inconsiderate.  Selfish.  Childish.  Etc and I feel dismissed.  Voiceless."

Now, I'm a big girl and I don't choose to cope by hiding, drowning or leaving.  I choose to speak back and say what I think and feel.  I choose to use my voice and I hope to be heard.

I do own the wound that was created in childhood (I mean it's mine....not anyone else's pain and I have to deal with it).

I do think it will continue to be exposed when anyone dismisses me or sometimes when I see others being treated like that.

I'm not sure I need to cry any more about what my parents did but I do have to be careful not to take out what they did to me on anyone else, just because someone might behave in a way that reminds me of the past and how my parents behaved.  That would not be fair or right at all and it certainly has no value or use.  It's harmful to myself and others.

So I will own that too.  That maybe part of my reaction was projection, or more accurately, partly I was speaking back to my parents.   "Don't tell me to Shut-up!!  I won't!!  I'm not afraid! Not any more!  My reaction is valid!  I feel mistreated.  Like I'm worthless.  As if what I have to say is worthless.  Not valid.  It's wrong to do that and good parents don't do it to their kids! Please try to be better parents!!  Please don't speak like that to me again.  It's totally rude, mean, inconsiderate, selfish, childish and very disrespectful!!"

They're both deceased so I might be wasting my time.  Maybe not.  I feel better now.  Clearer about what happens for me and like I've had a chance to reveal my wound, so others might understand.  I hope that will happen.

Thankyou for the opportunity to talk about it.

Ofcourse, I have an easier time linking my own pain to my own past than I ever will have trying to
link anyone else's pain to their past (it's pretty unlikely that I will do that with any luck at all and it's not my responsibility for sure---even though I'd gladly try if they wanted me to--by guessing). So I hope, to hear more from others and about their layers, if they feel like talking about them, and maybe that will help them feel better too.  That will also probably help me to understand them better, which is definately something I would like to do.

Sela

[Marta]

Richard,

Nice. Very nice. Thanks about putting this up.

(Therapy, in fact, results in the exposing of this pain—and resisting the inclination to re-cover it quickly—so the wound can heal naturally over time in the context of a new loving attachment.)

Thank you for the clarification -- it was much called for.

The immediate natural inclination to such an event is to defend our positions/selves, quickly to re-cover the injury, to say in effect:  “you are wrong about me…I am not like that…I have value.”

Sometimes what we hear instead may be is, “I have value because you are wrong because you are worthless.” That is what I hear when fellow board members are suddenly “exposed” on thread after thread as Ns, evil, emotional vampires, you name it. When our fragile admissions of worthlessness, revealed on this board in our most vulnerable moments -- for this is what many of us come here for --are dug out of the board archives and slammed in our face as conclusive evidence or proof of our worthlessness, that feels like an act of violent betrayal of trust, of highest order really. Is this all necessary and helpful, even to those who may be unthinkingly do it? Could this perhaps deepen the message board wounds instead of healing them? Or may be heal them the wrong way?

Look at the vehemence and passion required to protect/restore our selves.

Richard, I worry that these words could be misconstrued to accelerate the Dionysian bias that already exists on this board, which is perhaps at the very crux of a lot of miscommunication and conflicts on this board in the first place, where feelings publicly expressed most vehemently and passionately are often perceived to be “real.” Who is to say whether Shakespeare’s Othello was hurting more than Kafka’s K.? Who is to say that privately playing violin is any less legitimate outlet for dealing with knee jerk ouch anger than proclaiming one’s anger at a fellow poster in a public thread? Who is to know how many more planets there are in our sky other than the ones we can see and count, and what their drift is? Why should I be pressurized here to act like someone other than who I am and speak in a voice that is just not mine?

Best, Marta

[Portia]

No. I have to speak. I’ve changed my mind.

I don’t want Marta to contact me on the board.

I don’t want any PMs or posts from Marta to me, or about me.

I would like Marta not to refer to me, directly or obliquely.

I can’t stop her doing any of that.

Hopefully she will read this and respect my wishes.

I am not doing this any more.

[Moira]

Hi all! I really liked what Richard had to say and I'm thankful and appreciative of his " two cents". My head is hurting! I can't read anymore of this. It has gone beyond being productive, enlightening, positive etc for me. Before i leave this thread, i will say that I'm a big fan of owning my own stuff and looking back on any exchange and seeing my part in a conflict. i don't care how righteous I am, or what under dog I'm defending, or what the cause is---I own my part in a conflict. I personally also like to stand back and take a look at whether or not I have an agenda and what is it? Sometimes there is an underlying agenda- no matter how righteous the cause there can be something in it for me( not necessarily referring to manipulation, using people etc..More reference to do I HAVE to be right?, do I have to have the last word? Do i have something to prove? Am I taking on something that really has nothing to do with me? etc). Anyway....my opinion is mine and mine alone. If someone doesn't like what I have to say- their issue, not mine. They are responsible for their feelings, I;m not. I'm not so powerful that I can MAKE anyone feel anything, think anything or do anything!Take what you like and leave the rest!! I'm outta here!  Hugs, Moira

[mudpuppy]

Hi everybody,

I just wanted to say I've been here a year or so and I think I am only now grasping that I really don't understand a lot of the dynamics of this forum.

I wasn't raised by Ns and I have never been involved with one romantically. I do have a sibling who has caused me a great deal of distress and anger over the last few years but I view that as an external occurence, not something that I have internalized.
Maybe that's why I have stepped on toes inadvertantly, because I really don't understand some of the reactions I see.
I'm not even sure what a trigger is. Something that just ticks me off , or something that sets in motion a strong psychological/physical reaction?

When Dr. Grossman started his post talking about people feeling worthless at their core, that there is little or nothing of value, I kind of thought people would recoil at that statement. I thought people would object to it. But no one did. I personally find that thought kind of repellant. It doesn't really compute for me. I don't think I'm worth any more than anyone else, but the idea of feeling that there is little or nothing of value at my core is completely alien to me. I don't get it.

I guess that's why I seldom feel comfortable giving advice other than the practical kind, because I guess I really don't grasp a lot of the perspectives of some people here.
I don't mean any of this to make me sound better or healthier than anyone else,( I'm probably just more obtuse ) it has just kind of been brought home lately with all this 'conflict' stuff going on how little I get how a lot of people here react to things.

The older I get the more I understand how little I understand. Especially people.

mud

[mum]

Ignorance may be bliss. I have not really understood most of what has gone on recently on this board, with this "issue" (that I still am clueless about). I am sorry I cannot be more supportive to anyone, really, as I am that kid who is totally out of it, saying, "um, when's recess?"
So I will just say, I hope whoever is feeling strongly about anything that has gone on: I wish you happiness and peace. Yeah, I am also the kid saying, very naively: "you mean not everybody gets along on the playground?" or "there are probably ghosts or killer dinosaurs out there, that's all!"
Love and light to all.
Mum

[BJ]

Richard,
It's always a good feeling to know you're here to keep us "on track" and thinking with care and objectivity. Your description of our ongoing maze of healing was welcomed and well-taken.

Look at the vehemence and passion required to protect/restore our selves.  Understand it, qualitatively and quantitatively, as a measure of the protection we needed and lacked from critical (both meanings) people in our pasts.  Think about the destruction done to our selves because historically we had no protection.  Talk about it, cry about it, own it.  Here, we are all fighting for our lives.

Regarding your above quote, I would like to comment on the response below by Marta.

Richard, I worry that these words could be misconstrued to accelerate the Dionysian bias that already exists on this board, which is perhaps at the very crux of a lot of miscommunication and conflicts on this board in the first place, where feelings publicly expressed most vehemently and passionately are often perceived to be “real.”

I don't pretend to know what other's think or feel, but I do have some specific thoughts I would like to share. If I understand these postings correctly, my interpertation of Richard's comment is different. I understood him to mean that the amount of dysfunction in our past , brought with us in our life today, is directly related to the intensity of our own defense mechanisms, usually unconscious....therefore, the greater and deeper the pain, the greater need to protect the self. Simply put, the intensity of historic abuse is directly related to the intensity at which one suffers. Tiffany,

I just feel so ill-equipped for being capable of getting it most times... here lately.  I did not have these problems when I was in denial. I used to think my "life" and family's way of being was actually normal and OK.  As a matter of life and death, do I believe I am going to have to honestly, openly, deal with my short-comings and fears and pain.

I was numb for a long time and thought I liked it that way...sometimes, I still do. But when I see clearly, pain and all, I'm glad to feel life. Pain is a sign of life and I always know joy comes after the pain. Joy could not be recognized without pain and ,IMO, any extreme emotion is still better than indifference.
And Mudpuppy,

When Dr. Grossman started his post talking about people feeling worthless at their core, that there is little or nothing of value, I kind of thought people would recoil at that statement. I thought people would object to it. But no one did. I personally find that thought kind of repellant. It doesn't really compute for me. I don't think I'm worth any more than anyone else, but the idea of feeling that there is little or nothing of value at my core is completely alien to me. I don't get it.

Not to be confused with "rotten to the core"...Here, IMO, I understand Dr. G to mean that when a child is rendered worthless (ignored/alone/less than)by the most important influential people in their life, the unfortunate result is to the core. The pain is so ingrained or "imprinted" that it must first be recognized for what it is, and then the work of healing and how to heal can and must begin. At this point, I have found there is no turning back.  With love from a believable, consistent, compassionate source, I am finally starting to internalize that I AM OK...at my core. My opinion of me is finally starting to be what matters most. I can finally know what it truly means to love yourself before you can fully love someone else. I always knew there was more to that than I understood. I have also felt how love can actually change my brain...therefore, my insecure thinking and need to passionately protect can begin to change, as well. This has been, and continues to be, a very slow and difficult process... with a great desire to learn all I can from everywhere. I feel I am in the "middle of the middle" of this process, and I already I know I usually feel better and will be better. Maybe my poem below will describe this better for me.

GANESH
Daggers dancing down my spine
Silently spinning loud in time
Chilling thrilling willing pain
Feel its fury or it will remain

Unfold the force that lies within
Like the vibrant vibes of the violin
Guide us home, lead the way
Full of love, we must convey

Tenderness humbles temptation and trust
Explore the splendor and now adjust
Action attraction lightens the load
Reaped is equal to what is sowed

Fancy-free for you from me
What exclamations live inside of thee?
Keep them safe, breed and flesh
Smooth as silk and floral fresh.

On this board, I appreciate celebrating our differences and learning from this. This, too, greatly benefits my healing. Thanks everyone!  BJ

[jordanspeeps]

Gorgeous poetry, BJ.  From daggers to silk flowers, the imagery is so beautiful and poignant in my mind.  My favorite and most relevent line is the "chilling, thrilling, willing, pain."  The pain, at first chilling and inadvertently thrilling, has become now more willing (on my part).  Beautiful, BJ.

Mud, interesting viewpoint.  My husband said the "exact same thing" after thinking about the "onion analogy"  He, too dealt with much milder versions of Nism in his family than my own.  He has tremendous reserves of strength and he is Mr. Logic and Reason. Oh, and yes, there is that little matter of estrogen that has to be considered as well.  I do believe there is a fundamental difference between men and women in the way we internalize these types of things.  

Thanks movinon for saying:

You're right though...you need to fill up that empty space.  Ask for what you need.

I never do that.  I'm going to try it and see what happens.  Usually, I get upset after I feel I've been slighted despite my over-responsible and "good" behavior.  Sometimes I think overt kindness and empathy is a right I've earned through my own kindness and empathy, and don't therefore need to ask for it in return.  Some part of me thinks that's "too needy" or "clingy" or even, pathetic.  My perception was that most people earned good treatment by being "good" themselves and that left me feeling what someone described to be "toxic guilt"  All that crap builds up, and instead of just asking for say, some understanding, a moment to reflect, or just a break from it all, I let the proverbial straw break the camel's back.  My husband and I have made an agreement that the next time I'm feeling overwhelmed with feelings about my family, I should say something like, "timeout, I need a moment to vent, I'm feeling frustrated regarding x, y, z...."  seems so simple.  I'm going to try to be more conscious and give it a try.  thanks for the confirmation, movinon. good night, all.

tif

[Marta]

Sugarre:
When I read the posts of Marta, I felt defensive although I was not the target

Sugarre, I am sorry about that. If you are referring to the posts in I am struggling to make a decision. The person who started the thread is someone I often talk to and care about a lot, and I went on a limb to go the extra mile to discuss something I've wanted to tell her. I knew that she trusts me and would give me the benefit of doubt even if she didn't like what I said or the way I said it, or was even upset by it. I don't do this with someone I don't think I have a really good rapport with. I didn't realize that others who are reading it would be triggered by it. I am sorry.

The point I was trying to make is that what we do up here on the message board is somewhat different from therapy. The feedback I would get here would be different from feedback in therapy. As Richard nailed the point in his post, if I understood him correctly, in therapy we resist quickly recovering from our wounds and let them heal naturally, but on message board quick defenses are necessary and often used. Whether we go deeper and peel the layers or not, or how deep we go, is entirely up to us. The direction in which I would grow here is may be somewhat different that the direction I would grow in therapy. So if she is relying simply on the message board as her sole lifeline, I wanted her to be aware of that.

I think communicatiion is difficult when so many wounded people come together. I am all the way with you in that this board is based on suppor and reflection, not accusations. I don't like ascribing you intentions to me, I'd extended you a hand in good faith based on our past positive exchanges. I realize that you felt accused by what I said, but then there are others out there who didn't, and agreed with what I said, whether privately or publicly.

But your point has certainly provoked a lot of angst on this board.  Is that your point?  Is this all about you?

No, quite the contrary. I had not intended the angst, and believe me I'd never have made the point if I had anticipated that it would never have made it. However, now that it is out in the open, if it made even one person realize that possibility of being stuck at the outer levels of the onion in our communication, which I feel that quick responses on message boards do sometimes, then it would make me feel that it was worthwhile.

Hop, yes, I trust you that you don't mean to hurt, but I don't feel heard by you. As I've indicated many times, I wish to be myself, not you or anyone else. Let me be myself, feel my feelings my way, and express myself my way. I really dislike when I say no and someone just doesn't back off. When I ask you to stop, please stop. The dangers are real when a roomful of wounded people try to adminster therapy to each other.

BJ, Yes I had understood what dr. G meant. But I only wanted clarify that, as I understand it, in the context of the dynamics of this board. Passion is felt in different ways and expressed differently.
By the way, What a lovely thing to say....

I have also felt how love can actually change my brain...

PS: Please clarify in your posts whether you are talking abour conflict 1 or conflict 2.