Message board wounds

[Portia]

Mud, hiya

Just a quickie to say thank you for your real, honest post and to say, hey, I understand now! You are a saner guy than I, I feel. No wonder some of us (me) make your head hurt. Sorry for that. I enjoyed reading your healthy perception back there. Thanks gotta scoot

[Marta]

Sela,

Your anger is as powerful as your voice, so I feel as though you hit me with a rock for throwing a stone at you. But I still feel treated tenderly by you. In my heart I feel only warmth for you.

Why?

I saw you as someone who was simply trying to be who she was, trying to find her voice. Unlike others, you did not saddle me with an iota more than what I saw as my due. Unlike others, you did not feel the need to hurt me in order to heal your hurts. You were not sarcastic, malicious, hurtful. If you overwhelmed me, it was only by the sheer intensity of your reaction, not by covering me all over with goo. Amen to that.

Yes, I see us all divided into two categories in how we handle conflicts. I unequivocally want as little board conflict as possible. To me this didn't and still doesn't seem like a lot. But I see that it felt different in your skin. I will never really be able to connect to that fully, I really don't know what that feels like, because I was never silenced in the same way. You see, in my family, everyone said whatever they wanted, YUCK. But I hear what that felt like to you. I felt your rejection and despair.

I will tell you how I felt. In the first conflict, just because someone didn't like my tone, suddenly my integrity was attacked, poison was injected in my words spoken with great affection for someone, my expression of goodwill for others were derided as acts of malice. To me, that is the lowest rung of hell where I grew up-- where good things were somehow turned into bad and good intentions were labelled as bad -- until I slowly found my way out with great difficulty. I am simply not going back to that place.  Like you, I'm a big girl now and will simply not let my soul be corroded with that poison again. The only way I can cope with it is to withdraw into my shell, and just not let it in. There is simply no room for any dialogue here.

So I wished to create a room where I could lock that poison out of my life. I badly need a community of people who can understand my life experiences, but who can also handle conflicts in a different way so that when we work through it all, something worthwhile comes out. Where we build trust instead of destroying it in the way we deal with our conflicts here on the board. Where if we jump on the battle ground, it had better be for something worthwhile and real. Where before we jump and say you, we can say I. To me, it seemed simple. Post an announcement. I see that it has words which express some of the frustration I was feeling at the time here.

When I saw a post on that thread with the same poison I was trying to lock out of my life, calling me an N for being nice to others, using my own past posts to make the point, my skin crawled. I just locked the thread and I wasn't going to reopen it. It was not to silence Sela but to protect Marta.

Sorry Sela that I hurt you, and thank you Sela for being nice.

Sugarre, you are the one who has really made me angry, may be because I did not expect an out of the blue attack on my integrity from you.
What you said was:
I felt defensive => Marta posted in an accusatory manner
Your point has provoked angst on board => Is it all about you?

Do you see that one little step called reflection that is missing here?

And, I don't blame you. 
But you did very well in apportioning the blame?

BEFORE you feel so smugly entitled to attack my integrity, you missy, put that reflection step out there. Show it to me.

What is YOUR point sugarre, that I must never ever utter words that will angst you? That if I ever do so, hell will be raised and my integrity will be attacked?

Shall we do some reality check here? Angst on board does not seem to me as much about my that twiddly stupid little post as about this persistent hell of this conflict that went spiralling downwards for over two weeks. Did it occur to you that if I was saying anything you didn't like or agree with, you could simply have PMed me and asked me hi Marta what is going on? Do you see the difference between feeling accused by someone's tone and actually accusing someone of lack of integrity?

[jordanspeeps]

Two quick things:

1.) It's like what my great-aunt Dorothy used to always say, when I was confused as to what kind of person I was dealing with, If it walks, talks, acts like a duck...... 
and

2.)  there's an e-book, named "Think Like a Shrink: 100 Principles for Seeing Deeply into Yourself and Others", (cute title) wherein one chapter, she says something like: "You can gather a lot about a conversation by the way the person closes or says goodbye."  she proffers that the most important content and intention in a person's dialogue is given in the very last words. 
Often people orchestrate an entire initial conversation complete with sweetness and lights, only to deliver the most brutal and purposeful meaning right there at the end.

something to chew on, but quickly though, before it's removed. 

tiffany

[Portia up late]

Dear Voicelessness board

You have helped me so much. Thank you. In cyberspace I have found reality, and that is pretty good going in my book.

I suspended my disbelief and found help.

Everyone can find a space for themselves here.

Night all, best P

[mudpuppy]

Hi Portia,

Well I didn't mean to imply I was more or less sane than anyone. Maybe I'm just less introspective.

Nor did you alone make my head hurt. It also hurt because I was having a hard time following all the permutations of who was saying what to whom about what and at what particular time and so forth and so on and now my brain is starting to hurt again just thinking about it.

I must admit I'm kind of tempted to tell everyone to just shut up for awhile, for crying out loud, but that would be imposing voicelessness on others and preventing healing so I guess I'll go play with my new shop vac. For the time being I find sucking up spiders more therapeutic than the board.

mud

[Portia]

Bean
Can people tell how hollow I am inside?

No, but if you say so, I believe that’s what you feel/think.
You don’t sound hollow to me when you speak; like many voices I hear here, I think you sound way too IQ and EQ intelligent to handle life without hurting. Can we live without hurting? I don’t think so. But we are alive     I’d love to hear more from your depths Bean.

Mud
You often tell it like it is and I like that!  Thanks. I often wish I was less introspective. True! Being here helps a lot, getting words out of my head allows me to look at them and see if I’ve changed my mind since I wrote them. Oh that reminds me, I found this quote last night. I like it:

The little girl had the making of a poet in her who, being told to be sure of her meaning before she spoke, said, ‘How can I know what I think till I see what I say?’

(Graham Wallas, The Art Of Thought 1926).

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hiya all

I have learnt a lot in this recent conflict, not just about the different ways others react, but also how conflict affects me.

I hope that we all find healing and our voice, that over time we realise that we are worthwhile people, that other's hear us and each and everyone one of us gains the ability to perceive posts as intended.

Take care

H&H xx

[Portia]

Bean, thanks many times for your post above. I was just making a difficult job for myself when I realised you had already made it so easy.

We need to resolve This conflict (which is very real to me) because then we can attempt to solve the other real conflicts, better, now and in the future, in our lives.

Yes I agree with you. I’d also like to repeat your previous post too, about rights and responsibilities in a conflict:

Your responsibilities include:
1.  approaching the other person in a polite, problem-solving way to work things out.
2.  avoiding actions (like gossip) that make the situation worse.
3.  a willingness to recognize that you have probably contributed to the problem.
4.  listening to the other person rather than trying to convince or bully them.
5.  seeking help from others in a dignified, open and constructive way.

Okay. (1) Can I say I’d like to approach Marta to work things out? I will avoid (2). I have definitely (3) contributed to the problem. I am willing to (4) listen to Marta. I’m seeking everyone’s help (5) by posting this. If you want to comment to me about me, let me know!

Your rights include:
1.  setting behavioral limits and consequences when nasty, abusive behaviour is directed at you.
2.  the expectation that the other person will work in an open problem solving and courteous way.
3.  an expectation that management will help, but may not be able to solve the problem without your cooperation and that of the other person.

I believe I did (1) when I said:

I don’t want Marta to contact me on the board.
I don’t want any PMs or posts from Marta to me, or about me.
I would like Marta not to refer to me, directly or obliquely.

And I would like to thank Marta for respecting my wishes since. I’ve appreciated that. I would now like to revoke those three requests and say that Marta can contact me on the board or via PM, she can refer to me etc.

With (2) I would like to be able to expect that. I’m still respecting Marta’s wish that I don’t contact her though. If her wish changes, I need it communicating to me in some way.

Finally (3) fair enough.

I wasn’t sure how to approach this and I want to say the obvious - I can’t speak for anyone else, only myself. So I’m doing that and hope that it will help.

[Sela]

Dear Marta:

This is another long one.   (Imagine meee........writing a long, long post!! ).  Grab a coffee or tea or juice or a black russian ( ) or whatever.  Thankyou in advance, for reading it.

I'm not sure how else to point out that I do not like having my thoughts or feelings defined except to say that I do not like having my thoughts and feelings defined.  Ofcourse, I contributed to the problem by not saying that right away.  I could have pointed that out immediately and been very clear.  Sorry I didn't do that.

"Your anger is as powerful as your voice..."

This statement defines my feeling as anger, which is definately not what I am feeling and I'm not sure if you feel angry and so you are assuming I feel angry too, or if you are assigning some angry tone to my posts, or what?  I only know that I don't feel the least bit angry toward you and that I have no idea why you insist on saying that I do.

And not only that...but now...I have some powerful anger, according to you, and a powerful voice to match.  I just do not think that what I've posted on this thread, sounds like that but if that's what you're hearing, then that's what you're hearing and I'm absolutely powerless to change what you're hearing, or how you're interpreting it, or how you're defining it, or anything else inside your head.

I don't feel angry.  I wish you would quit deciding that I am.  My voice has no more power than yours or anyone else's.   Please stop defining me.

"I saw you as someone who was simply trying to be who she was...."

I'm not at all sure what you mean here.  It's another definition that I simply don't understand.  I still am.......Marta.  It's not who I was.  I haven't given up the ghost yet ( --or become one ..yet!!).  I presume you are trying to say something nice.  Thankyou for trying.  I appreciate it and let me know if that's not what you're trying to do.   I'm being picky here about the words used.....because I find them confusing.

"so I feel as though you hit me with a rock"

Would you kindly point out exactly what I wrote in this thread that gave you this feeling?  I'm not sure
if I need to explain what I meant, or say I'm sorry.  I'm certainly sorry that you are feeling this and I can assure you that I did not intend to hit you with anything.   I've tried to express my thoughts and feelings.  Maybe I haven't done a good job of that, or maybe you've misinterpreted, or misunderstood?  Is that possible Marta?  Could you be misreading.  I know I could be.  Lot's of times.  It wouldn't be the first time and it probably won't be the last.

I make mistakes Marta.  And I am sorry that something I've written has effected you this way.
Not what I want at all.

"Unlike others, you did not saddle me with an iota more than what I saw as my due."

I'm sorry to be picking appart your post, line by line.  The reason I'm doing it is because I'm really trying to understand what you're saying Marta, because I really want to understand.  Are you saying that you deserved to be hit by something that hurts like a rock?  That you deserved to be abused by me?  That the anger you think I'm feeling is justified?

I find this very confusing.  On one hand, it seems like you're saying you got what you deserved and on the other, it seems like you're saying I abused you in a big way.  If so, then what did you do that caused you to believe you deserve this?  More important....can you think of what wound was opened for you?  Can you link it to the past maybe?  I mean a time when you were abused, possibly, and believed you deserved it?  Maybe I remind you of someone?   No need to answer, if you don't feel like it either.

Was it because on your announcement thread, I questioned your defining people on this board into two groups and it looked to me like you were picking a favorite group and because I asked which group I am in, in your opinion?  Did that feel like me hitting you with a rock?  I'm really trying to understand.
Or was it the anything thread?  What I wrote there?

I don't like everyone being defined any more than I like being defined.  So I posted to your announcement.
I also wanted to know which group you think I'm in so I asked you.  I didn't decide for you Marta.  I don't like being picked as a favorite any more than I like being excluded, but I wanted to know, at least, which it was.  That's what I was seriously asking in your announcement thread.

In the anything thread, I believe I was trying to explain how I was feeling and what triggered it.

"I unequivocally want as little board conflict as possible. To me this didn't and still doesn't seem like a lot."

So what would you classify as a lot of conflict then?  And if it's not a lot of conflict, why do you feel the need to start a new group?  I don't get it.

"But I see that it felt different in your skin."

Marta, you cannot see into my skin.  You cannot see what I felt under my skin.  You cannot decide what I felt or what I feel.  Maybe you could ask instead of deciding?

"I was never silenced in the same way. You see, in my family, everyone said whatever they wanted, YUCK."

I'm sorry that you had to live in such a place Marta.  Did they say mean things, often, without seeming to care how much it hurt you?  I bet that was painful.  It hurts when people say mean things to me.  I don't like it.  Not a bit.  I'm sorry that you had to endure abusive words from people you should have been able to trust.  Were you allowed to tell them that?  Did you say:  "That was mean!  That hurt!!  Don't say that to me!  I'm supposed to be able to trust you!!" ??  What did you say, if not that?

"But I hear what that felt like to you. I felt your rejection and despair."

I understand that you are empathizing with me Marta and I appreciate it.  It's just the way you're saying it that still bugs me.  Maybe it's just something that develops around abuse?  Something that needs to be unlearned?

It would be reasonable to say:  "I hear you.  I think I would feel despair and rejection, under those circumstances".
Instead of saying:  "I felt your......"  which defines what you have decided I feel or felt.  Do you see what I'm saying?
It's better  to ask me what I feel or felt, or state what you think you might feel or have felt, than to decide forrrrrrrrrr me what I feel or felt.  That's all.

I hear other people saying something similar to you and it sounds like it is very upsetting for you and maybe confusing.  It sounds like does not mean that issssssssss happening for you, but it's what it sounds like it.  It might not be like that at all for you  I'm trying to guess.

I'm trying to explain what I mean.  I'm trying to help you understand what seems to have upset some people and what felt/feels uncomfortable for me.  I'm not the only one who doesn't like having my thoughts and feelings decided/defined for me.  That seems to be something that upsets others too.  It might be part of what's causing part of the "conflict".  I've done the same kind of thing myself before and it caused conflicts then too.  I've learned to practically erase the words:  "You think..."  ...."You feel"..... " from my vocabulary.  It's helped me to learn that.

"I will tell you how I felt in the first conflict..."

Marta which one was that?  I'm not sure what post in which thread you are talking about?

"Suddenly my integrity was attacked, poison was injected in my words, spoken with great affection for someone, my expression of goodwill for others were derided as acts of malice."

I think you're saying that you were trying to express something good and it was interpreted by others as bad??  If so, how did you feel then?  I think I would feel totally misunderstood and maybe frustrated too.  That's me.  What did you feel?  Did you say:  "I feel.................I meant ..............."??

"The only way I can cope is to withdraw into my shell."

I would argue this point strongly with you Marta.  I think you have other choices.  I also think you can do what you decide to do.  It might not be easy.  It might even be really scary but withdrawing when people misunderstand is definately not your only choice, imo.

"There is simply no room for any dialogue here."

Ok.  You don't have to talk about it.  That is also a choice.

"I wanted to create a room where I could lock that poison out of my life.  I badly need a community of people who can understand my life experiences, but who can also handle conflicts in a different way so that when we work through it all, something worthwhile comes out.  Where we build trust instead of destroying it, in the way we deal with our conflicts here on the board."

Marta, you can lock out that poison by.........not freaking out.......if someone misunderstands you or disagrees with you.  Not by hiding but by having faith in yourself and choosing to work through it, just as you've so plainly stated.  I'm confused because I don't understand why it would be easier in another room??   Also, do you think people here cannot understand your life experiences?

"...in the way we deal with our conflicts here on the board."

Marta......we who?  Who's conflicts?  What way?

It sounds like you're defining everyone, or other people in general as doing something...dealing with conflict.....in a certain way.....and only you know what that is?  This statement is very general and speaks for everyone.  It's saying that everyone on the board deals with conflict a certain way.  Do you see why that might upset some people?  Those kind of general statements.....without specifics.....which define everyone as doing something the way you see it..........upsets people, I think??

How will that change in this new room?  Ofcourse, I'm asking a lot of questions.  I don't need the answers, though, unless you feel like saying.  It just sounds to me like you might be hoping for something you could easily have right here.  Sometimes, it might be necessary to trust that nothing needs to be destroyed but it can be built up?

"I can see that it has words which express some of the frustration I was feeling at the time".

It was a call for special people Marta.  An attempt to rally a group who would be secret.  They were asked to PM you and you would decide who would be in it right?  And some people were not invited......those who think there is something to be gained by conflict, I think was the way it was worded?  I haven't gone back there to check the exact wording.

I understand that you felt frustrated.  Do you understand that by that post you were indeed rejecting some people.  People of this board who you had formed an opinion about and who you did not want in your new group?  I didn't like that idea of yours, Marta.   I think it was a bit weird, really, because it might even attract the exact opposite of what you seemed to be wanting.  It seemed prejudiced.  Exclusive.  Secret.   I think that it's ok to have other groups but not ok to make a big announcement about who and who will not be invited to join.  Not here.  Not where people are already feeling unvalued, excluded from much in life, even worthless.  That's my opinion Marta.

"I just locked the thread and I wasn't going to reopen it.  It was not to silence Sela but to protect Marta."

And reposting your announcement in a new, locked thread was for the same reason, I bet?
Did you think about how locking the thread seemed like an attempt to silence anyone else who wanted to comment?
Maybe you didn't think of that?

The other thing is....I don't think it protected you at all, did it?  I think it made things worse.  What do you think?

"Sorry Sela that I hurt you."

Apology accepted.  No problem.  I believe you did not intend to hurt me.  No worries (((Marta))).

When it comes down to it--  IIIIIIIII decide when I will be silent.

If I don't want to talk with someone, I don't.
If I have something to say, I will find a way to say it....somehow....somewhere....in some way....if I choose to.
It's impossible to silence anyone here.

It's a choice to speak/write or not to do that.  A choice to be....or not to be......silent.
(to be..........or not to be.......silent........thattttttttttt.....is the question!!   Probably I should soon stop eh?)

I'm not sure there is a safe place to hide from conflict,  Marta, or if it is possible to create such a place.  And even if that is possible to do in cyber space, it seems like it might be a sort of....self-defeating thing to do.  It encourages letting fear rule, I think.  Something I refuse to do, if at all possible.  Ofcourse, that's just my opinion.

The trick is to do exactly as you said -- work throught it, or, if that seems like a waste of time, to simply move on to another mode, imo.   Running away and hiding might be something a child does because there is no other choice, nothing else to do,  but as adults, I really believe we do have other choices.  And maybe I'm completely wrong to believe that but I do believe it and so far, I haven't changed my mind.

"...and thankyou Sela for being nice."

Thankyou for the compliment.  I can be nice sometimes.  I can also be rather nasty.  I'm trying here, to be honest.  I don't want to hurt you Marta and I'm sorry for anything I wrote that did that.

Sela

[Portia]

Sela your post above really got me thinking. And as ever, what I post to others helps me, when I reflect on it. On Monday I said in another thread:

When I get threatened, I become so darn ‘right’ about what’s right for me. I get very ‘adult’ when I’m threatened.

I think is true, I do become ‘adult’ when I feel threatened. By that I mean I start to lose my curiosity and interest in the other person.

If I’m interested in something, anything, I find I’m not frightened of it. I guess that’s how the therapy works with folks who are afraid of flying, or spiders? Get them interested in the subject and the fear is replaced by knowledge? I was confused and somewhat scared by my own mind. Still am sometimes! And I found this board and discovered (1) it’s okay to get knowledge for myself and (2) I can get knowledge about how my own mind works. What a fantastic liberation it’s been so far. Truly amazing!

Anyway, if I feel threatened (and the things that threaten me can seem benign to others, I know, they’ve told me), I need to protect myself. I protect myself by defending my ‘self’ I guess. Chucking up walls of my beliefs and values. Or getting the flags out saying ‘freedom’ and getting ready to fight for those beliefs.

How many little children behave like that? When we trust the world everything is interesting! We want to touch and taste everything. But as soon as someone treats us badly, we lose our confidence I guess and start to regard things more defensively. We don’t want to risk being treated badly again, we lose the trust we had.

Okay grandmothers and eggs I know. I’m talking to myself, rehashing what I ‘know’, but what I now ‘feel’ to be true.

So where’s this going?

Well I worked out that my last post on this thread was very (in my view) ‘adult’. It’s still me in defensive mode. Why? What was I frightened of? I think in this case, with that post, I was scared of ‘doing the wrong thing’. I didn’t know how to say what I did say, so it came out all logic and strong statements. That’s me in defence mode, I recognise that now. So I thought about that and decided it was okay. It’s okay for me not to be sure about what I do and heck, if I make mistakes, so be it.

Then I thought: I don’t know if Marta knows this, so I thought I’d say it:

I felt threatened by Marta. I started to feel frightened. That’s why I behaved like I did.

I’m not saying Marta made me feel that, I’m not saying she factually threatened me, no. I’m saying that’s what I felt.

Why I felt like that is my stuff, my problem.

Hope this makes sense.

[Sela]

Hi Portia:

I agree with Bean. 

Replacing fear with curiosity is a wonderful concept.

This following makes me wonder:

Why I felt like that is my stuff, my problem.

Where did that come from?  What past event(s) did the recent stuff remind you of?
Where and when did it start?  And will it ever end?

(No need to answer P, just thinking about it out loud eh---pondering).

That makes me ask (relating to what you wrote and applying to myself):

What makes me feel threatened?  Or, rewording, why is it so easy to feel threatened or why does the feeling of feeling threatened come up faster than other feelings sometimes?  I think I might have felt threatened by having my thoughts and feelings defined by another person.  Just like the doc said, I was defending my core.  The fear.....is losing my self (if other people define me, I might just accept it blindly?  after awhile, I won't even have an opinion---only accepted projections??) maybe?  Scary for me.

Ofcourse, for me, it seems obvious that growing up in an abusive environment was scary, even if I did my best to protect myself, as a child.  It was still scary.  And....now I'm an adult....and stuff that feels threatening or scary....pushes that same button that evokes those same feelings of real fear.   And although, I'm choosing (a lot of the time) to protect myself in different, what I hope are healthier ways......I'm still protecting my self as best I can, and fighting the fear off ...a good part of the time.   

I wish there was an "off" button for the fear stuff, especially when it seems to be trying to take charge!

Your post got me thinking too Portia.  Thanks.

  Sela

[declarlib]

I wonder. It is one of the charactistics of narcissist to be very self-defensive, he can become outraged if his facade is blown. Where, I wonder, do I learn this?????

He has to be right. He has to have the last word. Where, I wonder, do I learn this?????

He has to put other people down (because only by their subordination can he experience elevation). Where, I wonder, do I learn this????

He has to maintain appearances of convention and normalcy, so his methods are silky smooth, devious, subtle and (logically) defensible. Where, I wonder, do I learn how to do this?????

Richard's post made me stop and think. Many of the "checklists" for spotting narcissists or psychopaths include this kind of reaction. This need to be right. And, also, this underlying lack of self-worth, such that they can be devastated (and outraged) by being contradicted. I am not unaware that many of my characteristics, especially insofar as I repeat the abuse I suffered onto others, derive from my "training ground." However, I often seriously wonder just how narcissistic I am ... and now much I can become self-aware of these legacies such as to overcome them. Am I one of those "incurable" narcissists? Or is there hope for me? I don't know. I have good days and bad days, but I watch myself carefully.

I am also aware in these forums and in "real" life that I have a "fix-it" button ... trying to fix narcissists, trying to help, trying to ... basically, I think, propitiate. When I see people in a mess, I want to help. Is this bad? What if they are narcissists? What if it's a set-up? What if it's none of my business? But the main question is: what is driving me? What am I wanting from that activity? A brownie point? A pat on the head? Recognition? Applause? Due to knee-jerk programming (by narcissists) my wiring is suspect. It is important for me to differentiate - to be aware of helping others because it is the human thing to do vs. helping others because I've been manipulated (suckered) into it.

Meanwhile, to this topic at hand ... I am a newbie ... I am posting this and a few other comments on different threads ... and then I am going to run away ... not to say I won't be back, but not soon ... I'm afraid to look ... afraid of being challenged or ignored ... (perhaps - and isn't this odd? - even afraid of being agreed with)!

If it looks like a naracissist, walks like a narcissist, talks like a narcissist ... is it one? Or is it just a victim, awkwardly struggling to recover?

[Hopalong]

Hey Declar,
There's a continuum and it's not B & W. If someone is extremely narcissistic or has full-blown NPD, imo they wouldn't be worrying about it as you are. But you may indeed have some narcissitic traits, wired or taught.

Welcome to the club. I call them Nspots. I feel spurts of grandiosity, sometimes outrage at being contradicted, sometimes entitlement. I can be a voice hog. I know them when I feel them wiggle and stomp them back.

But I'm not "A" narcissist.
I'm not cruel.
I do have empathy and an active conscience.

I think it's good you're asking these questions, hope you'll stay with it...

When I first learned about Nism, and then saw how some of my traits and behaviors could even occasionally fall on that curve, the next feeling I had was terror (a bit like what you're expressing) and the next (over a period of time, this was) a fresh NEW kind of self-loathing. Very painful.

Since that time, the learning and integrating and healing has involved accepting all of those things and going deeper into forgiveness and love for myself and even for the Ns in my life. The serious, full-tilt Ns I would rather not spend time with, but as to a decent human being with Nspots, well that's me, and I'm fairly well stuck with myself.

So I am trying to learn to love, forgive, heal, integrate myself and grow more whole. In fits and starts but in the right direction, I feel it happening.

I would trust that you can do this too. Start with your first question: where did you learn it, whichever N-ish thing you're facing in yourself? Who acted like that?

Hopalong

[Brigid]

Welcome declarlib,

If it looks like a naracissist, walks like a narcissist, talks like a narcissist ... is it one? Or is it just a victim, awkwardly struggling to recover?

Reading the lists of narcissistic traits and seeing ourselves in those traits and then leaping to the conclusion that.. OH MY GOD... I must be a narc, is a common problem among those of us raised by or in any other way associated with n's.  I sometimes think we should post a disclaimer on the first page of the website saying that if you are here and trying to learn and understand the pain you are having, then you are NOT a narc.

Having some n traits is truly a good thing and where we develop our self-esteem, will to survive, strength to move on despite adversity, and desire to reach our potential.  When we have lived as children with damaging n personalities, some of that is bound to rub off on us and just out of necessity to survive the experience, we develop some of those negative traits.  But if we were truly n's, we would never question the negative impact that could or does have on our lives, or how it affects those around us.  It would never be about anyone but us.

You obviously care about how this is impacting your life.  I guarantee there is hope and help for you to work through this and turn what you view as negative into the positive.  I would recommend that you start your own thread and share your experience so that folks here can comment more directly to your situation.  Only when you are ready--but you won't be ignored and will definitely be supported and find many who have been where you are.

Blessings,

Brigid

[Marta]

It was a call for special people Marta.  An attempt to rally a group who would be secret.

No..................................................................................................................

It was a call for people who are at a specific stage in their recovery. I see voicemaking process as having two components. In the beginning, it is necessary to confront others in order to find our voice. In the second stage, it is necessary to confront ourselves and our own shortcomings. In the end, my life changed only when I changed myself. This is not to say that the process is clearly divided as such, but this is how it more or less goes, in my opinion of course. Somehow it does not feel safe to me to talk about these things here on this board. Judging from how few stories or delicate moments of epiphany from those who confronted themselves and their own shortcomings I read on this board, I felt that may be there are some others who felt a similar need too. I think there is a wealth of stories and experiences in our lives to be mined and shared there that can help and uplift others.

I often feel that when a discussion gets deeper, it gets riskier, and so it is stopped in the tracks by someone feeling offended or judging what was being said (I myself am guilty of doing of doing both.) It was simply an expression of a craving for sharing at a deeper and more personal level, which I think may be facillitated if there were some simple rules of engagement for those who can accept and abide by them.

I did not grow up in the US nor have I faced issues of exclusion where I grew up. My high school was a nice, homogenous environment where people gravitated towards each other and formed groups, yet we all belonged to one big umbrella.

It did not help to use google jargon like invite and unlisted, clearly associated with exclusivity, to communicate that it would be a safe place where your spouse can't come and read what you write, for that is one big fear for many, certainly myself, in getting more personal in my disclosures.

You are right of course. I should have been a lot more sensitive and responsible in the way I went about it. I am not starting any other forum.

Marta