Author Topic: openness/honesty in friendships  (Read 9165 times)

write

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openness/honesty in friendships
« on: February 17, 2006, 08:56:08 PM »
I think I told you about my friend who turned on me because I said something negative about America, and I felt that the friendship could only be superficial on my part if I cannot speak my mind and she can not see beyond her over-sensitised patriotism....we have maintained the friendship on that level.

I also told you about the friend who is marrying the guy who gave me the whacking slap in the face email a while back, she accepts I am not going to their wedding and when we met recently I was attentive and supportive and made no negative comments about him or the marriage; it is an area I think people have to work out for themselves, their love life.

But now my closest friend ( the one with the big family I have grown very attached to ) has made a series of bad financial decisions and is about to lose her home.
She got her tax refund today and probably has about enough to go get a place and I really would like her to go look at an apartment or something before they have to move. She has I guess had emotions around this, and issues with her husband, and I feel like I've been pushing her to be more practical for a while.
Today I took over boxes for packing up the house and she was shampooing carpets!
Then tonight one of her daughters- who is early 20s and living independently- asked again could mom help fund a new laptop computer and my friend didn't say no/explain the situation.
I can't believe she will use what spare money is left on this- I know it's plain denial, and she says it's her duty to help her kids.
But she has 6 kids still at home, and a laptop is hardly an essential.
I have helped them all I can financially- they have helped me other ways, but in my world even with the bipolar and npd craziness we manage our lives, pay our bills and have some security.

I can back off and let them get on with it, but she often asks what I think or what my advice is.
Do I tell her?
Or is it like in the previous two friendship situations it's pointless being totally honest.

mum

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Re: openness/honesty in friendships
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2006, 10:28:07 PM »
I'm sorry your friend is in financial trouble, Write. And sorry that the "why" of it all is obvious to you, but not her.

I have a sister who is the kindest and most generous person in the world. She is in horrible debt because she lives beyond her means, her husband does not work nearly as much as she does (she teaches full time and tutors at night, he teaches two college courses, that's all). Her grown children are very dependent upon her for financial help....she is still paying their college bills. She just bought a brand new car and another expensive used one, and she has taken some expensive vacations to see her children and to fly them to see her.
I love her dearly, and I understand her struggle, as I have dealt with debt before (and am again, after much legal trouble).
The difference, perhaps, is that I still have a balance of equity in my property, and she currently has none.

BUT, as much as I may see how she puts everything, her children's expectations, appearances, her husband's laziness, before her own needs and practicality, it is ultimately NONE OF MY BUSINESS. She is a grown up, and I will sympathize when she calls in concern about it, etc., but I see that I will not help her one bit to focus on what she already knows. Instead I say, " I know it's tough. But you are smart and you will figure this out."  If her own debt is the nasty by product of great generosity, then who am I to be her judge? 

But I noticed you said your friend asks you for advice. Wow. I don't know too many people who do that on something like this. If my sister asked me, I would still stay out of it, and make suggestions that are positive (like is you h having success on the job hunt, etc?) I would also say something to the effect of the above: It's thier life, their business, and put the responsibility back on them: " what I think doesn't matter, really. It's what you think that matters. WHAT DO YOU THINK?" I think that is the problem: they are not really thinking about it...just reacting out of habit. So I won't let them off the hook by getting me to have an opinion on something I shouldn't be involved in.

I understand some people may feel it is a diservice to not tell people things that they may be doing that hurt themselves....but I don't feel comfortable doing that. It's their path, their lives. They own it. For example, I doubt telling my other sister that I thought her teenager was headed for substance abuse and worse, would have changed the course of her daughter's path at all.  She was in serious denial, and not a whole lot would get through anyway. And I have NO idea how it is to have such a fragile child....so I cannot be her adviser, just her loving sister.
Her daughter is now in recovery (again) in her mid twenties.  I know it would have been unwelcome "advice" and not taken well at all... I know people tried to advise, but things just had to follow the course they did.

Plus, I have enough of my own issues and trouble to ever spend time telling someone else where they are screwing up. It's not my place to become attached to their pain....

Thus, I leave it in my in debt sister's hands, maintain her dignity, and although I am not telling her what I see, she sees it. She is not dumb and I have heard her defend it...as her right, and she is correct. It's her decision. There are certain family members she will not discuss it with, and I don't blame her.  Heck, it's probably way worse than I even know.  But who the hell am I to tell her she is wrong to live her way? She is not causing harm, really, except some financial headaches for herself.

So until I become an expert at financial planning (hahaha) and get  paid, for my opinion, I will keep it to myself.
I sort of have this policy of not giving unsolicited advice. I think it can be boundary violating, as I know I feel that way when it's given to me.....

In a way, it's like my kids. I am entrusted to teach them, tell them things, but at a certain point, and with certain things, they OWN their path. If my son doesn't do his homework, he will get bad grades and not get into college. It is a logical sequence of natural circumstances and he owns it. But I am his mother, and part of parenting is to help them see that sequence, support the best choices, but I CAN'T DO HIS HOMEWORK FOR HIM (nor would he want me to, I suck at math! :lol:)
Luckily, he has been accepted already to his choice of college...whew! But he still has to pass high school (but I digress).
The point is, even PARENTS can't DO life for their kids, and friends cannot do the thinking for friends.

SOOOOO, now the disclaimer. I hope I haven't given advice that was not solicited. I thought it was, and am simply giving my experience as an example of how I have dealt with a similar loved one.

Hopalong

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Re: openness/honesty in friendships
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2006, 11:52:15 PM »
Mum,
Thanks for this reminder:
Quote
I sort of have this policy of not giving unsolicited advice. I think it can be boundary violating, as I know I feel that way when it's given to me.....

I think I sometimes get all caught up in thinking I'm perceptive. Sometimes I might be. But other times I'm not.

It does take real discipline to know the difference between a comment or a gentle question and pushy advice.

I think your sisters are very lucky to have you in their lives.
I've always yearned for a sister.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

mum

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Re: openness/honesty in friendships
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2006, 12:09:06 AM »
Hops, I am very fortunate. I have five sisiters and three brothers and they are all unique, wonderful human beings. I am blessed. Anyway, you can borrow a sister at any time (we are all very friendly....I can't wait to live closer again....) I'm sure they would welcome any friend of mine!!!

I don't know if it's wisdom or just plain being afraid to insult someone....(this thing about not giving advice when not asked).
Sometimes I think it is fear driven, and yet, when it matters, it isn't a matter of "advice", it's simply doing what I need to, I guess.
Relationships in general are so hard (and that's why if it clicks, it's so rewarding).

mum

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Re: openness/honesty in friendships
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2006, 12:59:57 PM »
Hi, Bean.
Quote
I'm open to being wrong here, I kinda hope I am in fact, since it sounds so depressing what I've written--so anyone can jump in and disect this, I don't mind--

Why does anyone need to be right or wrong about this?  I might be totally 'wrong" in someone else's eyes, but what does that matter? How important is being judged "right" by someone else? Not much. Does that make me N? I don't think so, because I also don't care if someone else thinks they are right and I am wrong, as long as it does not truly "hurt" me or my loved ones and I come from a place of universal love and harmless intention with my actions. "HURT" is also subjective, but I believe how much we care about something and choose to hurt about it is up to each of us.
I am learning to value my own thoughts and takes on things.
Everyone has an opinion, and no opinion is more or less valuable than any others. It's just opinion.

I also see it as not depressing (but I get what you are saying...) but rather freeing. Our own opinion matters, and if we are not close with others because trying to share it or disseminate it is draining, then we don't have to do it, if we don't want to.
It's okay as it is. Letting it be, letting it sit, being still when we think we know better for someone else....not reacting or jumping in to "fix" and save...allowing others to have their path and their learning....all as valuable as any other decision, I think.

But I appreciate what you wrote, because I think you got to the heart of things for me. Although there are some people who I would share my innermost thoughts with....on various topics, that varies, ultimately, I am not sure I would get much "bang for my buck" time wise, energy wise, if I were to be "honest" with some or most people in a way that challenges them to think like me, or adopt my opinion, or even think about my opinion on them or what they are doing.

If I do anything useful, I think it would be to ask them to think for themselves. It is just my comfort level. I would not want that kind of "closeness" with most people. My husband and I have that, but he is the only one, really. And do I practice what I preach? Well, I try...(ask him after I have a fit about something rather insignificant). HE will forgive, forget, trusts me as himself and visa versa, so I can act out different approaches to things with him.  and yet, I still have to be careful, because I care for him sooo much, that I have to give him the same space and respect I give those I am not as comfortable with. It's why marriages are both difficult and rewarding.
My siblings are some of my favorite people, but just because we are blood relatives, does not necessarily mean we have an unbreakable bond. 

I guess it's up to everyone to determine for themselves. If my friends need someone more forceful or critical to "tell it like it is" when giving their opinion, well I am sure they can find someone else to fit that need. It will probably not be me. I will speak my truth to them, but I do not know theirs.

Portia guest

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Re: openness/honesty in friendships
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2006, 01:23:14 PM »
Hiya Write, so....what do you think? (thanks Mum, I like that)

Hiya Jacmac, warning! Uninvited comments coming up. I'm curious about your superficial friend :( (vs. superficial friendship, sorry):

She went on happily to tell me how abusive boyfriend bought her a  pair of boots and a card, in which he wrote " I love you".  There was a pregnant pause at the end of the announcment, and I know she wanted me to comment.

I thought, Wow, she really wants me to pretend with her that this relationship is healthy and okay.
I cannot do that.


I wanted to ask....lots...like: was she showing off? Does she want your approval of her 'happiness'? Is she trying to make you envious?? I mean....what does she want there? I would tend to say er...nothing? wait to see what she said next? Okay that would be a bit tough. Maybe "uh-huh, that's nice, so how is x (totally unrelated subject)'. This is child-like stuff imo. Narcissistic too. She didn't call to ask about you I bet. What do you think? (I like that question a lot :D)

gotta scoot again....H wants the PC again...anyone got one going cheap? I need another...  P


Hopalong

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Re: openness/honesty in friendships
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2006, 02:40:37 PM »
Hey all,
I think that if someone directly asks for advice, then you've got a green light to offer it if you want to...

Maybe a good idea to say first: well I can offer you what I would want to do in your situation, but only you can decide whether this would be right for you. And if I offer advice, I'm not expecting you to take it. There may be other factors that make it the wrong choice for you.

(I know that's a lot of preamble, but it might reduce the strain on a friendship if the advice is not followed, or if it is followed and backfires in some way...)

And sometimes friends do give good advice and people take it and it helps.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

darky

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Re: openness/honesty in friendships
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2006, 03:19:02 PM »
i agree with hops on this one.

if your freind asks for advice, ask her if shes prepared for what you may have to say. a good freind is one that asks for advice and trusts you to be honest. if they cant take what you have to say, then the freindship is not worth a dime.

i had a freind similar to yours once, she would ask me for advice, i would just go along with her and she knew it. it was like she needed confirmation from me the whole time and she knew i would always stick up for her. i think it was lowself esteem on her part. after 20yrs i finaly stood upto her and told her what i really thought, and gave her more advice than she bargained for, and guess what??? she told me to go to hell.
20 yrs of "freindship" gone, but i dont see it like that now, it was 20 yrs of me being a faithful lap dog but when i told her something she didnt want to hear that was it in a flash all gone. but deep down i always knew it would be like that if i was honest and told her what i really thought.
she was never a freind in the first place i always knew that, but felt like i needed her as much as she needed me at the time, how wrong was i!

write

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Re: openness/honesty in friendships
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2006, 09:02:03 PM »
Well thanks for all the suggestions, she came over for a few drinks last night and I was rather more outspoken than I meant to be ( ie. a bit drunk  :shock: )

I didn't criticise but I did tell her I am concerned that she is in denial about the situation and not making any plans.

She is one of my closest friends and has seen me through my worst illness and stood by me through all that crazy time- which many friends I had known for years didn't- and I certainly would not see her homeless, which she knows. But also I do not want her default decision to be just come live here with no concrete plans. Our families are pretty close so I wouldn't have a problem if she wanted to come for a few weeks whilst getting more money together etc. But I guess what was underpinning my concerns is that I have seen each financial problem met passively, until it builds into a greater one, and I am not like that at all. And as my ex pointed out this week: if we're helping her and she still wastes money then she's wasting our money...

( It's quite funny my subconscious response to my friend's situation, I have actually spent less on just about everything in recent months, budgeted more carefully and put more money into savings!
I have always religiously paid my bills as they come in; thank goodness, because it's one good habit stayed with me when I was really sick and it can be a terrible problem for bipolar people, debt incurred during manic episodes )

Entirely unsolicited advice is probably a bad idea- though frankly I have found many people play that ( Eric Berne ) 'game' of yes, but... by telling you all their problems then coming up with an objection to every solution you suggest. I won't do those conversations any more, my father was a master at this and frustrated me so much!

I think by posting an issue on a message board it is taken as understood you are welcoming comments and advice from others, and I don't get too upset any more if I don't hear what I wanted to hear!
That was therapy- I am so much stronger for it, if someone says something I don't like I can ignore it.

More often than not now I listen to my inner voice, and part of that is why is that bothering me so much...
If something offends or upsets me and it's not someone acting out or being mean, I know it's something unresolved in me.

Thanks y'all.
One of the things which is solidifying in my mind after thinking about all this is that friendships are on different levels and at different times.
I have always had a problem letting go of relationships, even bad ones, but as I get older I am seeing that even the most solid relationships can melt away as people change or grow.
When I was most sick I saw friends turn against me who I always thought we would be friends for life. I wasn't the person they expected me to be.
Even your success can ruin a friendship if the other person is jealous.

I think my friend will be ok about my telling her what she probably doesn't want to hear and in my opinion needs to- in some ways I wish I had been more forceful a year or two ago when her situation started to get out of control.
Even though I got angry at the time, there have been times my friends have insisted I go to the doctor when I was sick and didn't see it.



Hopalong

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Re: openness/honesty in friendships
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2006, 09:50:47 AM »
Hey Write,
I think you are an amazing friend.
I also really admire your practicality...your budgetary sense.
That is a huge accomplishment in this culture when even people "without problems" can't contol money. I love to think of your thrift and good sense.

(You've inspired a thread.)

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

write

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Re: openness/honesty in friendships
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2006, 01:53:34 PM »
write - one thing I was worried about was the idea that friends can live together--especially friends with families and kids.  In my experience it's just not possible to do this and remain friends.  I have seen this happen many times.  I think it's because you become too close to the other's problems, in effect, they become your own?

I think this is what I am working out, because close as we all are I don't do that any more- take responsibility for other people.

I also think in my heart of hearts that unless someone takes their financial responsibilities seriously they will have problems over and over again, all their life maybe; it just isn't optional is it, paying your bills...

Bones

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Re: openness/honesty in friendships
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2006, 09:57:07 AM »
I just found out this morning that my boyfriend told me a lie when it would have been just as easy to tell me the truth.  It was over something as mundane as e-mail accounts.  I've sent him an e-mail explaining that if a boyfriend-girlfriend can't discuss little things like this openly and honestly, then what is our relationship based on?  I don't like being lied to about anything.  My Nmom lived her whole life telling one lie after another, destroying family ties in the process and has other family members convinced that I am nothing more than a mentally-retarded whore.  On the one hand, I know what I am experiencing is transference/countertransference and at the same time I am PISSED about being lied to, about anything, by my boyfriend.  It makes me wonder what else he has lied about?

Bones

Hopalong

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Re: openness/honesty in friendships
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2006, 10:28:51 AM »
My sympathies, Bones.
Trust is a precious precious thing, and can be very fragile.
My exN2 was a pathological liar and, when found out, he always looked bewildered by what damage it had done, in my view. He just never "got it"...how honesty is everything.

(Don't get me going on the imperfection in everyone that normally produces SOME kind of lies.)

But a basic engagement with the world with an honest gaze and open heart goes a long way.

You deserve that, Bones.

I think sometimes people act furtive and sneaky when they feel invaded, others just either don't know or don't care about the effects of lying. To my ex, it was as natural as breathing. I've had several bfs in my life who lied a lot, gratuitously.

I think it was my overactive imagination...men who "spun stories" were compelling to me. Once.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Bones

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Re: openness/honesty in friendships
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2006, 08:47:34 PM »
My sympathies, Bones.
Trust is a precious precious thing, and can be very fragile.
My exN2 was a pathological liar and, when found out, he always looked bewildered by what damage it had done, in my view. He just never "got it"...how honesty is everything.

(Don't get me going on the imperfection in everyone that normally produces SOME kind of lies.)

But a basic engagement with the world with an honest gaze and open heart goes a long way.

You deserve that, Bones.

I think sometimes people act furtive and sneaky when they feel invaded, others just either don't know or don't care about the effects of lying. To my ex, it was as natural as breathing. I've had several bfs in my life who lied a lot, gratuitously.

I think it was my overactive imagination...men who "spun stories" were compelling to me. Once.

Hops

I don't think he "gets" a lot of things.  I often get that "deer in the headlights" look when I have to explain the obvious to him.

Bones

Bones

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Re: openness/honesty in friendships
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2006, 07:29:01 PM »
BTW, is it just me or am I really noticing some strange messages, with HTML coding, that seem to be promoting the sale of stuff?   :shock:

Bones