Is it ok to say: "I hate you."?

[Certain Hope]

Sela,

I want to apologize to you for carrying out the finalization of my own loose ends in the midst of your boundary-setting here.
The thought of beginning another separate thread left me feeling naked and overwhelmed. Thank you for your patience and tolerance in allowing me to finish this here. I'm done, thank God.

Your last post here to Stormchild is just exactly how I feel about this stuff that's been weighing on me.

I don't have any grudge against anyone, but I do see these things and finally am beginning to recognize which ones are out of my league to handle. I am not making much sense right now, I know, but just wanted you to know that I feel what you wrote.

I feel it from two directions, Sela...
this part:

It's as if you cannot hear or see or feel anything but what directly comes from your own head.
Intention counts but you're not stating that it was your intention.  You're stating that it is factual and it isn't (it was in support...no it didn't come across that way....it didn't feel that way to me......your words are hurtful and you don't even seem to see it or take repsonsibility for it or consider fixing it). 

This is how I was when I didn't know where my feelings were hiding or what they even were.
It was all I could do.
The transition from that state to where I am now has been like an earthquake, followed by aftershocks.
It is absolutely eerie to me to read you describe what I used to sense within myself and in others.
When I try to reason out what it was exactly which brought me out of that condition, I can only guess that it was lonliness?
It is deathly quiet up in that ivory tower.
I am nowhere near as adept with vocabulary and sentence structure as others here, but I gave a pretty good shot at it for awhile there, last year when I was on this board. Gave it a re-charge when I first came back this year and talked with you, Sela... and again, I'm sorry.
That wasn't me. I was still partially in that old mental cocoon.

I am glad you're where you are and who you are, Sela. I remember telling you once that I didn't really think I needed to trust you in order to talk with you. How ignorant of me! What a load of hot air.
Well, now I do trust you.
Thank God things change... and so can people, if they're willing.

With love,
Carolyn

[Sela]

Oh Carolyn,

Your post brought tears to my eyes.  I just want to hug you ((((((((((((Carolyn)))))))))))

Funniest of all.....I tried to pm you, a little while ago, to tell you what a great job you did in your previous to this post....of my admiration for how well you express yourself (and I wrote that I often feel like my words tumble out like laundry out of the dryer.....all clean but all muddled up).....but the pm wouldn't go through ........and I wanted to say how sorry I am for all of the pain you endured here, which I was totally unaware of, and how unfair that is because this is supposed to be a place to grow and no one should have to spend their energy warding off abusers here (however......the world is not a perfect place and so who am I to expect so much??).  I'm glad a person can cry out for help when they need it and that Dr. G is here to answer those cries, if necessary.

 Thankyou Dr. G.

No worries, Carolyn.  Finish up whatever you need to here.  I'm not in charge of any thread. 

I do want to say that my sense was and stilll is that you have never not seemed to be trying to be honest and straightforward, nor have you tried or (obviously) intentionally used hurtful words and then shirked your responsibility.

(That's one way to express hate isn't it?---intentionally and in a twisted way using hurtful words and then doing your best to shift or defy responsibility?  Maybe?).

I also want to say, Quivering: 

I just hope that God in his goodness will allow you (and all others who post here) to be able to see that all that you describe about yourself, I'm sure Authentic felt as well.  I hope that God in his goodness will allow you (and all others who post here) to see her as a human being, also, full of flaws and sinful -- like you are, so that you can let go of the past and allow yourself to move past that place.

I hope that God is not offended by your attempt to place the responsibility for peoples vision at His feet.

We all have our own view.  Why does God have to be dragged into it?

Maybe what you're talking about is compassion?  Are you trying to say:  "Please let's have compassion for eachother"?


Yes, good!  I like that idea!  Wonnerful!



Maybe we can start by cleaning the wax out of our ears?  If someone says:  "Leave me alone!!", let's all hear that and respect it.  Let's have compassion enough to accept their wish and not question or belittle or do anything to try to change it.

Let's not challenge their reasons or feelings or experiences or opinions or try to help them see anything or ask God to help them see anything or anything else.  Let's just have compassion for them and let them be.

K?



Sela

[Sela]

And this deserves a post of it's own:

Well, now I do trust you..

Thankyou for your trust, Carolyn.  Thankyou so much for saying that.

Thank God things change... and so can people, if they're willing.

And Thank God for giving people the free will to decide and the strength to choose.

Sela

[reallyME]

Carolyn:  What your comparison tells me about you is that, although you claim to validate and hear my pain, you really don't think my pain is all that significant.
It's as though... I should buck up and hush, but it's okay for the person you're advocating to lash out at will, repeatedly, at anyone in her path.
That is wrong, Guest Q. Very, very wrong.

It is very frustrating to not be heard or to be heard but invalidated.

Carolyn:

So now, because of what I'm feeling about your last post, I've decided that I'm drawing a boundary with you, as well, Guest Quivering... in both your guest mode and under your regular screen name.
That boundary is = I will not share my feelings with you any further, or expose myself to your opinions any further... not because we disagree on this issue, but because I both hear and feel you invalidating my experience and trying to guilt and shame me into a return to voicelessness. I won't post to you, or regurgitate any of this, or remind you of it, or attack your character before others, or imply that you're a bad person. I simply won't engage you in discussion.

That sounds like very reasonable, self-protection

just hope that God in his goodness will allow you (and all others who post here) to be able to see that all that you describe about yourself, I'm sure Authentic felt as well.  I hope that God in his goodness will allow you (and all others who post here) to see her as a human being, also, full of flaws and sinful -- like you are, so that you can let go of the past and allow yourself to move past that place.

God, in His not only goodness, but JUST nature, will decide what is what since HE alone knows the hearts of the people involved in this.  Even God referred to people as "hippocrites" in His Bible, as well as describing the behaviors of those people as WRONG and CRUEL.  If you do want to "drag" God into it, just realize that two of the main sides of God, are Goodness AND JUSTICE...JUSTICE will prevail because "your sin will find you out" and "the things hidden in the darkness will be revealed."  That goes for ANYONE on this board, including me.

~Laura

[Sela]

If you do want to "drag" God into it, just realize that two of the main sides of God, are Goodness AND JUSTICE

Who died and gave you orders to tell anyone what to realize? (and who gave you the great knowledge of what anyone realizes or doesn't realize?).

I don't see the point of your saying this, other than to belittle.

Sela

PS:  Maybe I'm totally misunderstanding?  If so, I do apologize.

[reallyME]

Actually, my orders come from God, but that was not why I posted what I did.  I was trying to let all of you know that He is both just and caring and that He alone knows all of your hearts and the hearts of all of us, and He will sort through all of this.

If you want to be angry with me, that is your choice, but I do hear from God and I do know a lot about His nature.

~Laura

[Sela]

Uh uh uh!

I'm not angry with you.  Please don't decide that for me.  I simply asked a couple of questions to explain how your post sounded to me.

Thankyou for your explanation of why you posted it etc.

Sela

[Bella_French]

Dear Carolyn,

Hugs to you!
I am so sorry to hear about your pain; I had no idea about the past between you and authentic, or that you even had these major conflicts with her.

After reading your posts, I realize that i probably trod on your toes a few times, with my open praise of authentic, and it may have seemed that I was invalidating your feelings. I think thats how I would feel, anyway. I really am so sorry for that...I had no idea that this was the case, and i hope i have not hurt you.

Love to you,

X bella

PS. Quivvering guest, I'm sorry you feel the need to hide your name. Authentic made a good impression on me as a newcomer too, so I know how you feel.

[reallyME]

I am sorry, Sela.  I really was not telling you that you were angry.  I was stating that you seemed that way and that if you were, that was your choice to be.

I'm glad you are not and I am glad you might understand why I posted what I did.

~Laura

[Sela]

Not to worry Laura.

I'd rather ask a million stupid questions than make a stupid mistake.

(stupid mistake  being a misjudgement on my part).

Nope.  Not mad at all.  Apology accepted and thanks again.

Sela

PS:  On edit...Once more, sorry I misunderstood.

[Certain Hope]

Thank you, Sela... for all you've written to me here. (((((((((((Sela)))))))))))))  I feel so much better!
Calm and centered and integrated.
This place really is extraordinary... and so are you!

About the messaging... I have had some pm's blocked for many months (yours was one).
With my level of fear of conflict, that was the only way I felt safe.
At this point, I would prefer to keep all discussion, with everyone, on the main board.
It's better for me that way... partly to hold myself accountable and prevent myself from engaging in gossip
and partly because I've recognized that I have always been very susceptible to and quite easily influenced by the feelings and opinions of others. I consider it a disability of sorts and that's not something which I can just *snap* overcome... so I need to really guard against an overabundance of input.

Aside from all that, I hope it's okay to just share something with you, Sela... in general... because I'm just struck again at how very different you and I are from each other.

And Hi to Laura ... I am about to mention your name and wanted to acknowledge you and thank you for your comments here... I understand what you were saying about God being love and justice... and I agree... those two qualities do not conflict.

okay, here's my little story...
I could never play sports involving a ball, for instance... because I'd see that thing zooming toward me, wince, close my eyes, and duck. Didn't matter how much confidence I had in the person throwing the object my way... that was my reflex.
I don't know what it's called, but it really does feel a bit crippling... and I'm still that way to a great extent.
So when I read or hear someone with great forcefulness of emotion and directness of speech (without the...ermm... foo foo stuff), I tend to shy away. It is in no way a judgment of the other person, or anything personal whatsoever... just the way I am.
Like when I read what you posted to Laura about her reference to God, Sela...
stuff like that makes me squirm. Your PS softened the tone of it... but first I squirmed.

I'm not saying this to critique your style, Sela... honestly. I am so glad that we're not all the same! How dull that would be!!
 Only saying... I maybe couldn't have received what came after that post, if you and I hadn't just had an excellent communication between us, full of understanding. And I needed to hear what came after,
because when Laura said, "If you want to be angry with me, that is your choice..."     -  that is exactly how I felt. 
I didn't know that was wrong communication... because I thought you seemed angry in your reply to her, too.
Alright, so I am starting to understand, how not to read too much into the words on the page/screen... how not to assume... and I hope that we can talk about this more, elsewhere maybe... because I would really like to get over my own kneejerk reactions to what I hear of peoples' tones... even in print.
It all wound up with a sigh of relief for me, anyhow, because it sounds like Laura understood what you were saying and everything wrapped up okay... but I could easily have gone into hiding immediately after phase 1. So thanks to both of you for setting the example that you have on this. I thought it was really good and helpful.

Love to you both,
Carolyn

Thank you, Bella... hugs accepted : ) 
((((((((Bella))))))))  There was no way for you or anyone else who wasn't there at the time to know... and no expectations on my part for anyone in that position to understand.
I thought that I was doing a good, mature thing by maintaining silence when the person I knew as JacMac returned to the board this last time. I was wrong.
I should have confronted the issues immediately and straightforwardly, on the open board. I simply couldn't face the confrontation and all of the backlash which I knew would ensue. Now I can and I know that it's as with anything... anticipation is always so much worse than the actual event.

So no, Bella, I do not feel invalidated by you.... exactly the opposite, in fact.
To me, you are a gentle, kind, caring person and I can surely understand your appreciation for the poster you knew as "authentic". There was a time when I shared your view... until I had cause to disagree with her view of other board members here. Then I realized that no difference of opinion whatsoever was allowed and I found that level of control absolutely unacceptable. For me, it was just a repeat of what I endured from abusers throughout my life and I felt helpless to stop it. If I wouldn't capitulate 100%, I was unacceptable... so I left.
This time, I would not leave... or engage. That was not acceptable either, so this time I was to be punished again. Enough.

I think it takes alot of guts to step forward and say what you've said here, Bella.
Guts and honor and dignity and integrity and all that goes together to make one exceptional human being. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.

With love,
Carolyn

[reallyME]

Carolyn:

okay, here's my little story...
I could never play sports involving a ball, for instance... because I'd see that thing zooming toward me, wince, close my eyes, and duck. Didn't matter how much confidence I had in the person throwing the object my way... that was my reflex.
I don't know what it's called, but it really does feel a bit crippling... and I'm still that way to a great extent.

I'd call it, "i'm afraid of that thing flyin at my face at 80 mph and so I'm going to get out of its way!!!

[Sela]

Thanks to you too Carolyn, for the hug and for all of your patience.

Re messaging:  No worries.  I just didn't remember ever pm'ing you and was surprised to be blocked.  I guess I was wracking my brain trying to remember what I did wrong but then I kind of wondered if maybe that was from a long time ago as a precaution, so I didn't panic.  I don't like gossip either but I sure have appreciated the times people have pm'd me and offered support when I felt all alone or confused and I've asked for support by pm too, sometimes, which was usually a big help to me.  I do understand where you are coming from though and I certainly respect you choice.


As to tone........I'm sorry my tone sounded angry.  Not what I felt posting there.  It's not the first time someone has said this too......so seriously I need to figger something better out.  I don't like the thoughts of people squirming reading my words.  I wish I were better at communicating.

Sorry again Laura and now you too Carolyn.

Sela

[Hopalong]

Hi, all:

I'm not holding a grudge. I have just said, No.

I won't be hauling out old posts/threads to prove anything, but bear in mind that noone else can ascribe emotions to me or speak for me.

A long time back, I set a boundary with someone I cannot engage with constructively.
That's it.

Do I need to add that I am not hating anyone? Hope not.

Hops

[Certain Hope]

Sela,

Thank you... for making such a huge effort to have such constructive dialogue here... and for everything you've said.
After reading back through these posts, I just have to tell you... I talk like you write. I mean, it used to be that I could barely speak to someone I didn't know well, but if I did talk to more familiar people, it would come out like you write. So I can relate.
Especially now, I can relate, because I'm trying so hard to write like I talk, all the formality drops out and it really gets tangled up.

And I am still thinking of some of the idiotic things I've said to you in the past... things I've written when I was in my head and not acknowledging feelings, because of fear... I was determined not to carry about your impressions, because of misunderstandings of my own, thinking that I was hearing anger and ducking. Emotionally ducking.
Just recalled telling you once (not all that long ago) that it didn't bother me a bit when I didn't get a speedy response from you to one post I'd made. You said how if it'd been you, you'd have been watching and waiting for a reply... and me? Oh no, not I... far too mature for all that... sheesh... it is humbling to see what a jerk I can be. Again, I am so sorry... and thank you for your patience with me.

It is wonderful to feel that fear dissolving and to just be an ordinary human being for once.

Laura, I just want to tell you that I think you've set some awesome examples here on the board and I've learned a great deal from you through all this. About that ball flyin into my face fear... lol.. I was hopin for a slightly shorter name for it, but okay : )
Thing is, words flying at me have the same effect as small round objects... but maybe not so much anymore. Thanks.

With love,
Carolyn