Is it ok to say: "I hate you."?

[lighter]

Peace,

I will say this......

I prefer to connect instead of conflict.

When it appears there must be conflict..... I prefer it sans nasty.

All you said about the record player and nudging.... is very on target.  

I'm going to think about it for a while....

Thanks for sharing all those thoughts: )

How those cool furry boots fittin?: )



 

[cats paw]

Lighter,

   Love my bronze cat headbands and bracelets, and of course my boots. Yes, matching kitties on my boots.  Not booties, just because they have matching kitties, but some kick-a boots.

   I do so appreciate your saying you didn't want me to feel mocked, even for a minute.  The reason I wrote it was to let you know my own inner process.  As far as when you said to serpentine, I knew what you meant as far as the verb, but no, I didn't know what your reference was.

   Once I was at a seminar, and in one of the sessions, the speaker was talking about the movie "Big" with Tom Hanks. He was asking everyone what one of their all time favorite scenes in the movie was.  Well, I took him literally, and one came to my mind.  He was trying to get somone to say the one scenes he had in mind, but no one was speaking up.  He kept asking for us to say a little something about one of the favorite scenes.  Mind you, this session was about adult play.  So, I piped up and went "Aaaaack!" and coughed a couple of times like I had a hairball.

   He looked at me, knew I was referring to something, but he hadn't a clue, so he asked if I was ok.  I replied that I was, and then said "Caviar. The scene when he tried caviar at the party."  

   Well, everyone lost it then!  He went on to say that he was trying to get someone to mention the scene when he played on the
giant floor piano, and then went on to explain that in reference to his session.

    I wasn't trying to mock him at all, or cut into his gig.  In retrospect, I'll bet he choose to alter that part of his presentation a bit, for those members of his audience who might take his question literally without further clues.

    No finger-wagging here, Lighter, as Carolyn said.  I just used this as an opportunity to try a bit of writing and telling a story.
  
    You must have been in an extemely difficult place last October, if you, of all people could not recognize humor.

    Have you ever been on the receiving end of anyone using humor as a weapon?  My mother did that, and has only very recently stopped with her " I was only kidding."  I think the reason she has stopped is because she has been called on it.

    Again, no comparison, or finger-wagging.  I'm just truly curious the points you have raised about humor, and the nuances.

    Of course, please disregard anything you don't want to discuss.

OK-  Need to go polish my bronze and some other things round ye old dwelling.

cats paw      

          

[Sela]

Why won't Stormy just leave me alone?






What compells her to keep poking....prodding.....(which feels like bullying)?






Well she can't get away with posting garbage about people!!

She doesn't have the decency to address me directly (but instead, continues to talk----about---- me, like one might about any object).....Will she mind if I do the same then?



Hey ya'll!!

If you feel like it.......read her post and substitute your own name, instead of mine and see what you feel.  Just for the heck of it (it's back on page 3).  I'm curious to know if anyone else felt like I did?

I feel like I read and computed the message being promoted.  Does it bother anyone else when she assumes to know your feelings?
Did you notice her insinuating that you are hateful and dishonest? (when you substitute your name, in her post, where my name is).


I read, awhile back, a thread in which everyone was talking about what they would do....usually do.....etc when they see someone being bullied.  Where did all those people go?  Awww but this is so insidious......might not be noticed so easily.


Oh oh!  Nevermind.  Who wants to get accused of starting a conflict?  Better to just ......let it go eh?

Usually, I choose to do that but not today.



Thankyou Hops for speaking up.  I appreciate your consideration and courage!




I notice no one else agreed with you or supported what you said.  I guess a lot of people are all talk and no action, when it comes to letting bullies poke and prod.  Saying that someone denies their feelings and taking whatever information one can gain about a person, their relationships, their experiences and then using that info to create some kind of new nasty story, in the guise of pretending to be helpful, is not only hypocritcal but mean......like an experienced bully acts.

I hate it when Stormy tries to make me out to be something I am not or when she proclaims I feel something I do not and when she finishes a story that she has no clue about the end of........and she does so with such superiority.  I think she's trying to project her own hate....onto me....for some screwed up reason.

Whatever.

No thanks.  Not interested.  I don't hate Stormy.  I pray for her and all who have such needs.



I was gonna just ignor this junk but I changed my mind.  I was gonna ask Dr. G to remove Stormy's post because I find it offensive but naw......I think I better at least try to deal with this myself, first:


So Stormy:

GET OFF MY ASS AND LEAVE ME ALONE!!

Is that straightforward enough for you?

Sela

[Certain Hope]

Dear Sela,

I just want you to know that I did not read any of the previous posts on this thread, although I knew it was an old one.

When I saw Hops point out that it was not current, I thought that she was being her usual tidy self and had no idea there was something else going on.

I still don't know what's going on, because I still haven't read back... but in light of my own recent experiences, it was important to me to let say immediately that I was clueless... and why.
And I didn't want to hesitate a moment before saying, I am so sorry you were hurt by this... and I hope you're okay.

Hugs to you, Sela... like I said, I don't yet know the story, but I SO can relate to the feelings you're expressing and I know how badly it hurts.

With love,
Hope/Carolyn

on edit:  ((((((((Sela)))))))))
I do see. I hadn't read that pg 3 post before.
It may be mainly because I know a bit of the history that I'm able to understand your reaction now.
Because I've run into the fact that other folks have not understood my own reactions to some stuff/other people, because they weren't there when it began and don't have the full picture, I just don't know how likely it is that anyone can really comprehend... and I don't think that even matters.
At least for myself, that's the conclusion I've come to... if something hurts, I don't have to prove to anyone how much! Good enough to cry, "foul!" and put a stop to the pain.

All I can say is... you've stated your boundary quite clearly here, and that's the best thing any of us can do, I think.
The business of determining whether or not a meeting of the minds could occur is entirely up to the parties involved
and not open to anyone else's opinion or  interference, imo.  And personally, athough I've only had a bit of practice, I plan to follow suit with laying out such boundaries when I feel that I've been seriously disrespected, because it's far superior to risking a stroke.
I wish you well, Sela.

Love,
Carolyn

[lighter]

::going back to look at page 3::

Sorry, Sela.....

Didn't mean to hurt you.

[lighter]

Ahhh... I think I did put my name in place of yours, Sela, as I read that post  

I found it more of a statement on society with Storm using your example as a jumping off point for discussion, than a direct attack on you.

Not sure what the history is between you two, once again.... sorry.

[cats paw]

Sela,

   I can only ask for myself, and very specifically to you- do you mind if your threads bcome springboards for tangents and offshoots
of topics?  I am trying to navigate my way, and can only ask for learning purposes for myself.

   I do not want to dilute or distract from your communication with others; I am trying to learn people's general preferences, and I don't think I'll be able to do it perfectly, but I can get a general feel for individuals.

   Again, I'm not talking about what you just communicated to another person, I strictly mean tangents on topics of threads you started, whether this one, or others.

   I always wonder if people are still out there reading, especially those I remember from my very first lurking days.
 
   I do want to apologize for any part of the hurt that is my responsibility.


cats paw  

[BonesMS]

This question brings to mind a commercial I have been seeing on TV lately.  The commercial opens with a little girl asking her Daddy for a puppy and he says "Okay".  Then it shows the daughter, (a little older), asking her Daddy to stay up for ten miore minutes before bedtime and Dad says:  "Okay, ten more minutes".  The next scene shows Dad and daughter shopping for party dresses and she's holding two dresses, in the exact same style but different colors and she's saying "Ple-e-e-a-s-e?"  This leads up to Dad and teenage daughter, standing at the kitchen sink, doing the dishes together when this (underage) teenager asks her father to buy her and her friends some alcohol so they can drink it at the house.  Needless to say, Dad replies with:  "Absolutely NOT!"  Kid's response?  "I HATE you!  You NEVER let me do ANYTHING!"  She throws down the dishtowel and stomps out of the room while Dad rolls his eyes.  (I can empathize with the Dad knowing that alcohol poisoning can kill youngsters along with a lot of other damage.)  In that instance, the daughter's angry reaction  ("I hate  you") was expected because it seemed to be the very first time Dad had ever said the word "No" to her.

Bones

[sally]

Dear Sela,

I’m so sorry for your pain.  ((((((((((Sela))))))))))))).
How is your relationship with your daughter these days?

In your original post, you indicated that your mom really hurt you (naturally) when she said “I hate you” & then the psychologist said, in front of your daughter, that it’s ok for your daughter to tell you that she hates you.  Wow, that is so triggering and I imagine it made you feel very badly, very voiceless.  I think it may have also caused you to re-live your childhood wounds.  The psychologist gave your daughter a green light to tell you the very thing that wounded you so badly when your mother said it to you.  I’m so sorry for that.

I think you are wonderful for actively trying to improve your relationship with your daughter.  As we know, some mothers wouldn’t bother.

I personally think saying “I hate you” is verbal & emotional abuse and I disagree with the psychologist who said it was OK to say these words.  Perhaps you could challenge the person who says it’s ok to tell someone to their face “I hate you” by explaining that it’s emotionally & verbally abusive and it’s triggering. 

I think the real issue is why someone hates:  what is causing the “hate” and is it really “hate” or more like disappointment, fear or anger?  I think the word “hate” is a catch-all word that describes other emotions.

Also, I know what it’s like when we go to a psychologist for a family therapy session and the psychologist, who is not on the same page as us, says something which further damages the family relationships.

I read Storm’s post on page 3 and, with all respect to you, I don’t think Storm was bullying you.  I don’t see her saying you’re hateful or dishonest.  In fact, I think she raises a good point about the double bind, the dilemma:  What do we do (what should we do) when we feel a negative feeling (like hate): Should we express it or not (& then feel voiceless)? 

What are the consequences of expressing our true feelings (which may be negative) or not expressing them?  I suppose this question goes to the essence of voicelessness.

I personally think that it’s OK to express negative feelings towards another if we do so in a way that doesn’t seek to emotionally destroy the other person.  To do so, one must have foresight of the consequences of their words & perhaps a teenager lacks that foresight.  I think it’s best if we can express our negative feelings in a “gentle” way (that’s what my therapist taught me).  So, I think an aware and enlightened person wouldn't say "I hate you", but instead would say "I feel disappointed/sad/angry because you did/said X".

Also, I’ve learned that emotions swirl around in our head, flit back and forth in our brains and then evaporate and are then replaced by different emotions.  So, I try not to be ruled by my emotions because they are not always reliable or wise directors of my actions.

I think it takes a great deal of self reflection, self restraint & courage to figure out how to express our emotions (not repress them so that we feel voiceless) in such a way that we are true to ourselves but that we do not emotionally decimate the other person.  It’s a balancing act.

I hope things between you and your daughter are better now.

Love,
sally

[Hopalong]

Hi Sally,

I believe a bullying experience isn't necessarily intentional in the mind of the bully...particularly when that person is a cerebral type. Having others feel invaded by what one intends to present as edifying commentary may be an accidental side effect.

I think Sela is expressing a feeling of violation, at having an intimate, out-of-date and painful situation resurrected and used as an object of explication for relative newcomers. Particularly with the critical overtones.

I have been there, here, and had to draw the same boundary.

Hops

[finding peace]

Sela,

I wanted to add my apologies.  I am so sorry, I didn't mean to hurt you.

I didn't read back through the other posts either.

((((((Sela)))))))

Peace

[Stormchild]

Hi Sally,

I believe a bullying experience isn't necessarily intentional in the mind of the bully...particularly when that person is a cerebral type. Having others feel invaded by what one intends to present as edifying commentary may be an accidental side effect.

I think Sela is expressing a feeling of violation, at having an intimate, out-of-date and painful situation resurrected and used as an object of explication for relative newcomers. Particularly with the critical overtones.

I have been there, here, and had to draw the same boundary.

Hops

Hops, I certainly agreee that there are some unregenerate bullies here. I haven't seen that much cerebration among them, though.

The most 'successful' bullies here, in my observation, are, almost without exception, the stealthy kind; the snubbing kind; the kind who make a great public show of lovingkindness and lavish do-gooding, while at the same time making very, very certain that the targets of their dislike have their noses rubbed in that dislike daily.

Subtly, of course, so that the bullies continue to appear blameless, to anyone who isn't paying close attention.

Interestingly, those targets? Their chief sin? Usually, being good at something. Insightful. Articulate. Intelligent.

Now, this is nothing more than gaslighting, nothing other than abuse. It's exactly the same kind of thing that brings people here in the first place - something many people here are desperately seeking to escape. And it is no surprise, ultimately, that it would turn up here.

Wherever people go, they do what they learned to do at home, until they learn how to do something else. If we were raised with courtesy and dignity, we treat others with courtesy and dignity. If we were raised with subtle abuse, we're likely to be subtle abusers ourselves, until we learn another way.

FOO stuff, plain and simple.

Interestingly, although I was at first very puzzled and pained by the bullying that I experienced here - and I've been bullied by pros, for sure - I am reaching the point where I can be grateful to the bullies, because I finally understand what my childhood friends meant when they said... 'they're just jealous'. I never understood that before, but I do now, and it is because of what I've experienced here.

Even better, though, because this is cyberspace, I can look closely at the bullies' behavior and at my own actions,  and this gives me negative examples to guide my behaviors. Knowing how not to hurt people is much, much more valuable - to me - than knowing how to hurt them, subtly or otherwise.

But even more valuable than that, there are many things that I see through, now, when I see them being done, or hear them being said, by anyone to anyone. Ploys, maneuvers, hidden agendas just don't stay hidden anymore. It is amazing. It's like having learned another language. And it transfers almost 1 to 1 into realspace.

All in all, I could not have asked for a more useful set of teaching experiences than I have had in my dealings with bullies here. It has been an incredible, amazing gift, made all the more amazing by the fact that there was certainly no intention on the bullies' part to give me anything of value.

And that, I think, is what transcendence really means. What a gift. What a gift!

[Ami]

<sub>[q
Hops, I certainly agreee that there are some unregenerate bullies here. I haven't seen that much cerebration among them, though.

The most 'successful' bullies here, in my observation, are, almost without exception, the stealthy kind; the snubbing kind; the kind who make a great public show of lovingkindness and lavish do-gooding, while at the same time making very, very certain that the targets of their dislike have their noses rubbed in that dislike daily.

Subtly, of course, so that the bullies continue to appear blameless, to anyone who isn't paying close attention.

Interestingly, those targets? Their chief sin? Usually, being good at something. Insightful. Articulate. Intelligent.

Now, this is nothing more than gaslighting, nothing other than abuse. It's exactly the same kind of thing that brings people here in the first place - something many people here are desperately seeking to escape. And it is no surprise, ultimately, that it would turn up here.</sub>


OH Dear God,
 That is it exactly, Storm. That is how the bullying works.I agree that I got so much more strength from standing up to bullying than by 100 people telling me that I was great.
I found that I could be strong and THIS time --not be prey like I was to my mother.
That is why I want to tell people NOT to run away from "bullies"or any sort of conflict on the board ,but to face it(maybe for the first time in their lives) and to THRIVE.
   Thank you. Storm                                                           Love  Ami

[Hopalong]

[Oops. Sorry, Bean. You're right, I can't read your mind.]

I have nothing else to say here...it's just recycling.

See y'all on another thread.

Hops

[Hopalong]

Hi Bean,
I'm sorry, I'm being unclear.
That didn't have anything to do with you and I was being opaque on purpose.
I will stop that. I was trying to avoid a pointless, boring drama.

I told Storm way back when that I would no longer dialogue with her, so I was avoiding redrawing a boundary.

I'm not engaging or taking the bait this time (familliar suggestions that I am fake, not a kind person, not spiritual, all that...).
This pattern is what I see recycling:

An Explication of What Happened Here is presented, commenting discursively on the Object's painful situation.
(Same happened to me over anguish I had with my daughter as well, so it seems to be mother-daughter things that trigger it--if the mother's feeling very vulnerable, particularly, that seems to be the blood in the water). The Explication includes Mind-Reading (plus Bonus Fictionailized Motives!), and Ascribed Emotion.
An Intervenor notices potential hurt to the absent Object and attempts to divert that part of the dialogue from flowering among those who haven't experienced the pattern.
The Object arrives and herself also objects, and draws too firm a boundary to cross. So she's off-limits.
The Explicator comes back and slashes She Who Has Thwarted Me. (E.g., the Intervenor. Slash, bait; repeat.)

It's very subtle due to the intelligence and writing skill of the Explicator, but after a few years, it's easy to spot.

I do not engage with Storm for this reason. It goes nowhere. I find it abusive, too.

Sorry I was difficult to understand, there.
I just have nothing more to say, here.
Hope it makes sense now. But this is the best I can do.
(I'm usually softer in my approach. But I'm no-nonsense about this one.)

Hops