We teach people

[seasons]

delete

[movinon]

teartracks -

"We teach people how to treat us" is one of my signatures and I may have been one of the culprits mentioned in your post.

I taught my N that I wouldn't take his sh*t anymore!  I think that may be all you can teach some of them.

Even addicts or other people who are "sick".  I actually made a boundary w/ my alcoholic father (who No ONE EVER spoke back to) that there would be no alcohol in my home (he didn't have to know it applied to just him - we lived 4 hours away).  He didn't come over for 2 years, but he also didn't drink in MY house anymore (he became pretty bad when he drank).

Movinon

[ANewSheriff]

Seasons,

I was brought up by what I now believe is a narcissistic mother and an alcoholic father.  What I learned in that house was acceptance and tolerance of the unacceptable.  I learned voicelessness.  I learned to not consider my own thoughts and feelings.  I learned that someone else was always right and that I was "to be seen and not heard."  Essentially, I was a victim - a prisoner with no rights.  But, to me that was normal.  I knew no other way.   

As I got older I carried these core beliefs about myself into the world.  I entered into my work environments, my friendships, and my romantic relationships believing that I was there to serve and not ask or even expect anything in return.  I attracted mostly people who would honor this.  The ones who were kind and caring, I did not know how to respond to.  I believe that I sought out people who would validate those core beliefs I had about myself. 

I learned in my early twenties that there were errors in my ways, though.  I began to assimilate some self-esteem and build some good relationships and become emotionally and spiritually healthy.  God saw to it that I was surrounded with some wonderful role models for which I am eternally grateful. 

Still, I have to work hard to keep these tendencies at bay.  They are still alive and well in me.  It is like they hang out on the fringes of my existence - waiting for me to have a weak or blind moment.  I have to work everyday on character building, honesty with self, and spriritual awareness or somehow I slip back into those old thought patterns rather quickly and effortlessly.

I had a nightmare of an awakening a year ago that left me blindsided, deeply distressed, very frightened, and distrustful of most everyone.  Right away I realized it was no mistake that this most destructive of situations was brought to me. The person I had been duped by was not the lesson.  I was.   For a year I sought answers.  It has been a deeply painful and introspective year. 

Once again, I have come to the conclusion that this has to do with my self-esteem and how I think I have value in the world.  For myself, this still goes back to what I am putting out there as messages and cues for others.  I have worked on healthy boundaries over the years and I am leaps and bounds from where I once was.  But, there is still a lot of work to do. 

I do subscribe to the thought that we teach people how to treat us because I feel like when I do not say, "That is not okay" to someone who has crossed a boundary I have essentially communicated with them that I either do not care that they did so or it is okay to do so.  In my life, this sets the stage for more of the same and those patterns are hard to break for both parties. 

Ahhh.  We just keep living and learning, do we not?

ANewSheriff                     

[ANewSheriff]

A couple times, when I've stuck up for my boundaries I thought I was going to die, seriously.

This is a life skill.  It seems quite unnatural in the beginning, but as you make more and more attempts you will become more and more confident.  I do not imply "comfort" here.  It is always a risk when we choose to speak up for ourselves.  But, we have to weigh the risks.  I might choose not to speak and that leaves a "footprint" on my heart, soul and physical body - it is a lie, if you will.  If I do speak I risk rejection and invalidation. 

What I often see is that people are often very frightened of speaking up because they are afraid they will come across as bitchy or whiny.  But, being truly assertive does not have to entail this at all.  Being assertive is simply allowing yourself the freedom to have your own opinion and express it.  It does not necessarily mean you are looking for a fight. 

I think that the more we practice the better we get.  Very often still to this day I dialogue with myself (thankfully, I still have not heard any responses - giggle) when I am faced with a difficult encounter.  I imagine all the ways the encounter can go from a generous validation to an explosive and angry attack.  I envision each scenario and respond to them to the best of my ability.   

Life is unpredictable.  People can be very unpredictable.  I have been trained and practiced for many things in my life.  Why not for these kinds of social encounters? 

You just push your chin up with your finger if you have to and keep moving forward.  You can do it!  You are your best advocate!!!

ANewSheriff       

[pennyplant]

You did fine, Bean.  Maybe she was in such a tizzy because of what was going on with her health that day.  Frantically trying to ignore it and distracting herself from her symptoms and worry by going overboard with her messages.  You took care of the task, it was fine for you to use your solution since you were the one given the responsibility, you didn't go crazy with sending defensive messages back.  You did good.

By the time she gets back to work, lots of other tasks will have come along and been solved and this one will be water under the bridge.  Plus, maybe she will have her perspective back.  Her health was far more important than the task and maybe now she realizes it.  Maybe she will just have let it go by the time she returns.  You can let it go by then too and focus on the other tasks that come along.  The less you concentrate on what happened and switch your attention to other equally important duties, the easier it will be for you to let go of it.  Hopefully, when she gets back, just seeing her won't trigger your feelings again.  But if so, try to redirect your thoughts immediately to something else.  For example, welcoming her back and inquiring as to how she is doing.  Getting her caught up on the jobs she missed this week.  Things like that which can take priority over something that will be long since over with by then.

It is bound to be okay by this time next week.   

PP

[movinon]

teartracks -

I'm taking things on a day to day basis, but when I feel like becoming the victim, I HAVE to look at my part.  What is making those people TREAT me like a victim.  It isn't always easy and sometimes I don't want to look at it.  

Life is going really well with my family of origin.  I am finally taking my rightful place!  I am no longer content with playing the role that they assigned to me (baby, scapegoat, the angry one, the black sheep).  I show up how I want to be treated these days.  It wasn't easy b/c dysfunctional families do NOT like change.  They fought it at first, and it took a couple of years to sink in.  My dad passed away in Jan., so I guess the family was looking for someone to step up - anyway, it was a good time for change.

Now I'm looking at a situation w/ the parents of my son's sports team.  I am feeling like an outsider (which is a HUGE shadow for me).  In this case, I am not married (all the rest are), don't have the money they do, and seem to have different values altogether.  They are civil to me, but we are not friends.  And what I'm looking at is, "That's okay."  I have friends.  Why would I want to be friends w/ people whom I have nothing in common with?

These are the same people that will go to the school to pick up their sons and some other players, but not my son even though I offered to do the drop offs.  I guess I'm thinking right now that pretending that this is all okay with me would be teaching them that I am okay with their behavior.  Nope, not okay, but I can be civil.

Also in the same atmosphere, the woman who used to pick up my son has a boy that picks on my son.  Now my son is very laid back and easy-going and figures he'll just ignore it.  Well, I've watched this crap escalate and almost ran onto the field yesterday when this little turd was screaming his head off at JUST MY SON and calling him and idiot.  I called mom last night to discuss it, and I know why the poor boy is like her is.  (Denial is NOT a river in Egypt).

I don't know if I'm not teaching my son that we teach others how to treat us, or that's just his nature and mine is a little more agressive.  I'll be looking at that.  I know I can't always be there to protect him, but I will when it's right in front of me and while he's going through the pains of the divorce and being the "new kid" in school.

Bean - I'm so sorry that happened.  YOu were assertive and gentle - VERY difficult for me.  In my dealings with women's empowerment it VERY, VERY common for women to be afraid to assert themselves and afraid of confrontation...that's why we devote so much time to teaching it and practicing the techniques.

Movinon

[ANewSheriff]

Bean:

That is what I'm working on with myself.  I'm working on having my own opinions, stating them (with fear of rejection, anxiety, trepidation and everything else), getting past those uncomfortable feelings, with the end result to feel better about myself.

Yes!  Yes!  Yes!  That saying, "Feeling the fear and doing it anyway" applies here, don't you think?  I am SO PROUD of you.  Your are so courageous. 

As for the work situation --- well, it is very sad that this woman experienced this trauma.  However, it is not your fault.  I will tell you something here.  My grandmother (my N mom's mother) passed away a couple of years ago.  My bets were hinged on my mother using this as a platform for her histrionics.  I was not wrong.  The whole funeral and the events leading to it were an embarrassing sham.

I was so apprehensive about attending the services because I did not want to be unkind to my mother or be disrespectful to my grandmother's memory, yet I was not about to start enabling and feeding into my mother's sick behaviors which I suspected would be at an all time high (which they were). 

I had to rigorously separate and compartmentalize.  I prioritized my goals:  pay my last respects, offer assistance to my grandfather, offer condolences to my mother.  I had clear lines in my mind.  That is what I went to do and I was not going to be distracted and sidetracked and sucked into any more by my mother. 

You know what?  It worked.  It was a big test and I was not sure how it would go.  But, hey!  It actually worked.  My point is that we can be respectful and supportive of those in crisis without subjecting ourselves.  We can mentally make a decision as to how we will interract and where we will draw lines.     

PennyPlant:You took care of the task, it was fine for you to use your solution since you were the one given the responsibility, you didn't go crazy with sending defensive messages back.  You did good.

Right on!         

Movinon:

These are the same people that will go to the school to pick up their sons and some other players, but not my son even though I offered to do the drop offs.  I guess I'm thinking right now that pretending that this is all okay with me would be teaching them that I am okay with their behavior.  Nope, not okay, but I can be civil.

   

That is right.  You can be civil.  One thought that came to mind as I was reading your post is how we compare our insides to other people's outsides.  On the surface these people may seem to have it together, be good friends, etc.  But, my guess is that as you get to know them better you will find that there are spats (this one doesn't talk to that one or so and so never offers to drive so we do all of her work). 

A therapist had gone to a workshop for an entire weekend concerning our interpretations of events.  We take a lot of things personally that simply are not intended that way (admittedly, some are).  The therapist said that the attendees were asked to think of situations in which they got their feathers ruffled because they took comments or actions personally.  They had group members within their small groups who began to brainstorm about other reasons the individuals may have behaved the way they did.

I am a person who is guilty of iinternalizing things like this.  Thinking about this in these ways, though, really has helped me.  Sometimes I forget that I am not the only one who is confused or sad or frustrated.  Even though I know better, I still tend to go around and think everyone else is okay.  This is just not true. 

Anyway, being new is intimidating.  Keep your chin up and know that you have support, you have friends, and you do not need these people's approval.  My guess is that you will find some friends and commonalities in this group - it is just new. 

ANewSheriff             

[ANewSheriff]

reallyME:

I will never understand how someone who was abused by an N, gives a RIP about not wanting to be unkind to them.

I started laughing when I read your response.  Truthfully, I do not "give a rip", but I was trying to take the higher road in this case because it was a sensitive issue.  The fact is that I know my mother so well, I suspected that her histrionics would have little to do wiht her own mother's death as they would be a means for her to be the center of attention.  Sad, but true.

I feel validated and justified in my thoughts on this because my usually silent siblings spoke up about their own reservations as we all drove together for some eight odd hours.  To this, I did not respond except to say that I was already on record about these issues.  But, I cannot express the relief and validation I felt when I heard my brother speak up for the first time ever about my mother.  To hear this from my siblings at a time when we should all have been so concerned for our grieving mother shouted volumes for me.

I do giggle at your response and so appreciate your courageous honesty.  Still, in my case I wanted very much to rise above and "act as if".  I did not want to be punishing or cruel.   Believe me when I tell you that I offered absolutely no more than my verbal condolences, in spite of her continuous efforts to engage me in her drama. 

ANewSheriff

[write]

I have zilch pity on any N or psychotic creature, who chooses not to see their problem and get the help they need.

I'm the opposite, I always feel more pity for people who have severe problems and cannot face reality. That's all it is really- not being able to face it; Ns know deep down they have big problems, the sad thing is they will not, or more cannot, let anyone get close enough to help. When they do get help there's quite a good prognosis with anti-depressants and long-term therapy. Their shame and the cycle of acting out keeps them trapped in their dramatic half-life.
Plus there's too much of the 'incurable' label gets thrown at personality disordered people, with too little stress on behaviour modification and treating underlying chronic depression.

Psychosis? Depends on the degree or even definition. Sometimes people who know their thoughts are somewhat strange don't want to face all that either- going down the road of diagnosis, treatment etc.

There is a lot of prejudice and misinformation about mental illness. People are afraid they'll be locked away/ drugged up/ become a social outcast.

With good reason too.

***

I think the big issue for me on 'we teach people' is some people aren't going to be taught, no matter what we do, so at what point do you walk away.

Not just from big relationships like marriages either- from a familiar store where you get bad service; from a job where you're taken for granted; from an acquaintence who tramples your feelings...the way we're treated every day contributes to our overall self-esteem and wellbeing.

Little changes- a new dry cleaners or hairdresser or fitness facility; dropping the lunch dates who seem to sap the rest of the day's energy; dropping the hobby which has become more of a chore than enjoyable- can make a big difference.

[ANewSheriff]

Write:

Not just from big relationships like marriages either- from a familiar store where you get bad service; from a job where you're taken for granted; from an acquaintence who tramples your feelings...the way we're treated every day contributes to our overall self-esteem and wellbeing.

I hear you loud and clear.  There are times to turn around and walk quickly the other way.  I have made this decision a few times in my life.  Well, several... 

One thing I have always made great efforts not to do is abandon relationships at the first sign of trouble, however.  I have generally hung around and stuck it out far too long in many of these relationships.  Finally, when there is no hope whatsoever I jump ship.  This has been my pattern.

Today, I am still stinging from the effects of these relationships so I am more cautious than I have ever been in my life.  I was thinking about this the other day and wondered if I had become untrusting.  Nah, it is more a reactive reflex to what happened. 

Same thing with the "grey area".  I used to love the "grey area".  The "grey area" was where I made all my excuses for people's bad behaviors ("Well, maybe he's an ass because he  is under a lot of stress.".  "She is moody because she had a bad childhood."  "I know they only call when they need something, but...") 

The "grey area" was my large arena full of "Yeah, buts".  Today, I am much more black and white, which is new.  I can listen. I can assist if necessary.  I can empathize until the cows come home, but I am not making any excuses for bad behavior because that requires me to move my personal boundaries to make someone else okay.

We just ain't goin' there today.

ANewSheriff       

[Hopalong]

Hi Really, Hi Sherrif:
Boy does this chat ring some bells for me. My mother is not full-tilt NPD (like an insanely corrupt Enron exec's entitlement, for example, or a violent abusive Nparent's)...but she's way up there.

Nonetheless, I have found living with her and caring for her the last 8 years to be the biggest test of my principles I've ever lived through (and on a few occasions I've failed the test big-time). Basically, it has been a gradual process of:

dicovering she's highly narcissistic
freaking out about it
being relieved I know
learning about boundaries
setting them and failing to hold them
setting them and meaning it
making peace with the reality
forgiving her
forgiving myself
grieving for the mother she wasn't
noticing the rare gestures she makes that are truly motherly

I think the biggest challenge has been to my belief system, which says to me that all human beings, without exception, deserve compassion. IOW, some may have to be locked in a cell for 50 years because they are monsters, but that doesn't get me off the hook of needing to "hold them in the light."

When it's your mom, who is supposed to be your safe cradle, and she betrays your trust, it's very very hard. I think I could more easily sustain compassion for some stray sociopath (especially once s/he's safely locked up and can't hurt me). However, that's the homework.

And with various other Ns I have known and even loved, though it was crucial to my well-being to get away from them and get over them...in hindsight, it's a benchmark for me that I can detach, forgive, and see them with compassion. I know that Ns are human. They do feel pain, they suffer, they bleed.
(So do rattlesnakes, I know...I'm not saying one should be vulnerable to them.) But the compassion I'm after is not about being weak and vulnerable. It's the stance of strength.

It's like being able to say NO to an N, and in the same moment, hold an inner stance of compassion toward their wounds and their distortion. Most of them, I feel, can't help it. Even if a person is so N as to be evil, I am not sure that is a true choice either. Maybe one day we will understand even complete lack of conscience as a brain defect. I don't know.

Meanwhile, compassion is the only companion that makes sense on the journey.

So, I believe in protecting yourself, setting boundaries, saying No, keeping a safe distance, and still...having compassion for Ns. When you can. (Sometimes I am sure it has to come later, or after much healing. I sure didn't have it automatically with my mother. It took 50+ years to feel this way.)

Hops

[moonlight52]

Hi Everyone needs to do that which keeps them safe.I grew up in a rough situation as a kid.It was not that I did not want to face my problems I have had to face a lot.
Its so good that mental illness is spoken of in such kindness and understanding now and people get help.It is good that people understand there is a difference between depression and bipolar,panic attacks etc and people just do not roll them all up into one thing. The very thought of me hurting anyones feelings makes me think hard.As I dare say it would any one else if they thought they might have hurt some one else's feelings. I  examine my actions and do everything in my power to correct my mistakes.I have very little contact with my destructive father.
I am a person doing every thing in my power with the help of my doctor,hubby to improve every day it is a lot of work .It took a lot of courage to say I am bipolar .and in the middle of the struggle I have always kept love in my heart.I just get scared sometimes.
Just like Healme found herself in pain from what to do about her depression. I found my self in pain to find I am bipolar but as Write sez you got learn to live with it.But mental illness is something other people maybe could find more about before they rush to judgment about it.
I have a dear writer friend very talented writer he has breaks from reality he is married and is very dearly loved.I cannot tell you how cruel his father always was to him.And I love him dearly he is even more fragile
than I am .
Moonlight

[ANewSheriff]

Hopalong: 

It's like being able to say NO to an N, and in the same moment, hold an inner stance of compassion toward their wounds and their distortion.

I do believe, Hops, that this is the place we can say that we have achieved recovery.  I have often thought of the broken souls I have encountered in my life.  These are people that act out angrily, disrespectfully, and can at times be out and out mean.  In attempting to find  a place of compassion, I envisioned these people with terrible physical disabilities (sorry to be so graphic, but): head injuries, limb amputations, gaping wounds...

In doing this, I reminded myself that the mental and spiritual afflictions were no different than the imagined physical conditions.  They mental and spiritual afflictions were just as debilitating.  They were just hidden.  A person with a physical trauma will often yell at or even  strike out at those who are attempting to heal him.  Those who are suffering emotionally are no different. 

I know this.  I have been able to practice this in my life.  But, I am still very weary from my long journey the past year so I am not able to effectively "get there" at this time.  I am still angry, hurt, and somewhat traumatized.  However, I can finally see the place I am trying to get to and that gives me hope. 

You are a very enlightened individual.  You could have been hurt by this mother of yours and responded in anger and hostility.  Instead, you choose to learn and grow.  What character!

Moonlight: 

It took a lot of courage to say I am bipolar .

     

I have a friend who was recently diagnosed with bipolar disorder.  She is the sweetest, most caring lady you would want to know.  One day we were talking and she kept saying "I am bipolar.  I am bipolar.  I am bipolar."  I said, "YOU are perfect!  The bipolar is an experience you are having." 

I hope that you do not lose sight of your worthiness and beauty in the face of this diagnosis. 

ANewSheriff   

[moonlight52]

HI  ANewSheriff  The only person in my whole life I have ever met that told me over and over that he was perfect was my N father.And like Write sez I do not tell many that I am bipolar.Thats not what I was trying
to say .I just hope mental illness will be understood with more kindness .I do think we are on our way .100 years ago people with depression and bipolar or panic attacks would have been treated far differently.I hate to think of it.
It is good we have come out of the dark ages on this subject.You should keep your self safe from anyone that you feel unsafe with .I do, I do not have contact with my  N father .
 Who's perfect? What to do with all the anger, pain ,cruelty my father inflicted upon me I am working on it.Thats what we are all asking ourselves.But in different forms ones a father ,ones a mother ones a husband,ones a sister etc.I did not understand the paragraph about physical disabilities ???
I think we all should be as kind as possible to ourselves and each other.I see so much beauty in all of us I do.........................seeing the beauty and feeling the love thats always saved me
moonlight

[Hopalong]

Hi Sherrif,
Thanks very much for the kind words, but I have to tell you you missed my rampage of a few months ago when I yelled at my 95 y/o NMom until she shook in her slippers. (I saved it up for 55 years.) I feel really compassionate NOW...but it sure wasn't easy to get there.

Hi Moon,
Dark o' the moon, light o' the moon...all beautiful.
Makes me mad that you would ever be shamed for an illness You Can't Help.
You're a lovely person and you generate a lot of lovely light.

Hops