How do we convince grandma?

[Debbie]

I have a 95-year-old grandmother who has a significant amount of money, oil rights, etc, to dole out upon her passing.  A few years ago my mother had a "friend" help her with selling grandma's house, placing her into a new resident, etc.  It's a long ugly story, but 2 years later he has a Lexus, near $100,000, has isolated her from all of us, just the typical brainwashing bit.  Of course, he trips over himself doing any and everything for her.  My mother has been her trustee for 20 years; that got changed. Then he was trying to get power of attorney.  We have been to an attorney, have notified all the agents responsible for her money, reported him in 2 counties, the State.  It sort of always comes down to that she can make her own decisions, but at least we have the radar on.  The other day my mother received a call from a bank regarding a joint bank account that she has beem on for 20 years with her.  They said "he" was in ordering them to remove my mother's name and put his on; for some reason.. well a very obvious reason, $300,000 just got transferred into that account. He could write a check and be history.  What a nightmare.  Any ideas about how to convince grandma he's scum?  I don't trust that he wouldn't help her death along if he gets things aligned where he wants.  I have personally thought of calling or sending him a letter, say hey pal, jig's up.  Nobody has confronted him yet, trying to keep peace for her.  Any ideas?

[mudpuppy]

Debbie,

The law is different in every state, but most states have an undue influence statute. In many cases the person need not have an unsound mind to be under someone's undue influence. The mere act of isolating her might be sufficient to bring suit. The peace you are attempting to keep for her is a phony one. Were she not being manipulated by this scum she would no doubt be furious with herself. Her true intentions and desires are being thwarted. Perhaps seeing him in handcuffs or having to pay her back would "deprogram" her and bring her some genuine peace.

mud

[Debbie]

OK. I just typed a reply and lost it.  Hope I'm not repeating myself.  We are wellllll aware of the undue influence laws.  I studied them for weeks, did my homework, called the police, found an attorney...expert in the undue laws.  The legal system drives me nuts.  So yes, the laws exist, they clearly speak to the difference between not mentally competent and being influenced.  We've called APS in 2 counties.  We've done a background check; loads of stuff, nothing exciting.  He fits about 90% of the criteria for a suspect.  How can we make something happen!! The lawyer basically told us our only option was to try to get guardianship.. which we probably wouldnt.  All those resources keep saying she willingly gave it to him, which is NOT THE POINT.

So does it appear the Attorney General and/or FBI would move on it .. even though these other authorities won't?  Maybe we didnt get a great attorney, but she's the head of the undue influence task force in the community.

What about an intervention?  A threatening letter to Mr. Manipulator? What I have read about narcissists is that they are pompous on the outside, terrifed on the inside, and if confronted he would skitter off like a scared mouse.  I think I have enough to scare him with. 

[Its_a_changin]

An intervention and a letter would be very good.  Be prepared for an unpleasant, probably name-calling, whatever tactics he will respond with to your letter.  As for the bank matter, ask your mother to change bank account numbers so he cannot have any access to them or perhaps explaining that to the bank.  Also change credit card numbers if applicable and any other financial matters with account numbers i.e. IRA, trust, 401(k), pin numbers, passwords, remove his address if he receives these documents, etc.  Get a safe for all grandma's financial documents and don't give combination to him and her.  If possible, don't mention in your letter that you're going to change account numbers, pins, etc. because he might do the same thing.  Just a thought.  There is also information on what else you can do for elder abuse:

http://www.elderabusecenter.org/default.cfm?p=statehotlines.cfm

Click on Financial Exploitation/Fraud
http://www.elderabusecenter.org/default.cfm?p=linksdirectories.cfm#5

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/elderabuse.html

I find the first paragraph of this page ridiculous:
http://www.canhr.org/abuse/abuse_index.html
Says on there that,"finding the right attorney to handle your case can be even more challenging. Many attorneys will not look at elder abuse cases. They assume incorrectly that because the client is old and in poor health, damages will be limited and, therefore, the case will not be worth the effort. Other attorneys may be experts in personal injury or medical malpractice laws, but know little or nothing about the Elder Abuse statutes."  You may have to do some searching for a new attorney or lawyer and see what options they offer, or Stormchild's idea of calling the State Attorney General Office.

[daylilyasguest]

Hello Debbie,

If you have, as you say, "enough to scare" your suspect, perhaps you owe it to your grandmother to share this information with her.  You, your mother, and any other genuinely concerned family members could sit down with your grandmother and try to present what you know about this guy, as well as your suspicion and your hurt that she has put so much trust in him over her family.  And if he is there, so much the better.

Obviously, I don't know how competent your grandmother is or isn't, but if it is unlikely that her family could obtain legal guardianship of her affairs, she needs to have all the information available to her so that she can make a truly informed decision.  Also, does this person have access to her medication?  Does he accompany her to the doctor?  Does he spend a lot of time with her when no one else is present?  Her financial advisors and bankers are not the only people who need to be aware that he may not have her best interests at heart.

I agree with Stormchild that a PI may not be worth whatever it costs.

best,
daylily

[mudpuppy]

How can we make something happen!!

Well, the heirs of her estate can sue him for undue influence right now. He's either going to run for the hills or he's going to have to face going into court and explaining how she just likes him so much that she has all of a sudden disowned her family and wants him to have everything. A good lawyer in front of a jury (not a judge!) should be able to make mince meat out of him. Its no small decision, going to court; just depends on how ticked off you are at his antics and what effect it would have on your grandma. As it stands, it sounds like you have the worst of both worlds. He's stealing her assets AND depriving you of her presence as well.

What bugs me in these cases is not where the money ends up, its the disrespect of the elder's real wishes, whether its while they're still alive or after they've passed on and wills and trusts get altered or disappear.

My all purpose motto: You don't know anyone's true character until they become a potential heir.

mud

[Debbie]

Hey y'all,
Thanks for the input. Keep 'em coming!  Yea, unfortunately, you see..Mr. Manipulator has made his way into grandma's heart.  She sort of fancy's him as her personal caretaker, and to be honest, I think she sorta fancies him like a significant other.  Yuk.  People keep asking if we think he is being sexual with her...ay yi yi.  So she's all for the bank account changes cuz she thinks he's all that. So mom has no position to do all that acct number changing.  Right now she's buying time to not sign the other one off...  The bank, however, is tuned in, and they DID indeed call my mom.. but it's odd, it's like the bankers, the lawyers, the county, the State, the police.. it's sorta like, "yea, we'll keep our eye on it."  Then when he makes another move, they sorta go, "oh well, it's her choice." What are they watching out for?  So those elderabuse websites, I know them inside and out...practically did the work for the lawyer, made a timeline of all inappropriateness going on, how much $$ and stuff he has acquired, his lies, his lack of never having a job the 20 years we've known him, relatives of his saying he has done this before..tons of stuff...found some work on objectively profiling his manipulative behaviors, but it appears unless GRANDMA decides she doesn't want to play anymore, nothing to be done, and we cannot speak for her.  He'd be so easy to uncover in court. It's almost like lawyers wont shut the youknowhatup long enough to really GET IT. They start telling you why you can't do something before you have the whole story out..and this guy's tricky, so there's lots to tell.  Had my mom conned for 20 years! That comment about that page being ridiculous, well that was exactly my experience, and we had the attorney in the county who was the chairman of the Vulnerable Adult Task Force. The biggest thing she did was tell us we did the right thing, and write a letter to grandma's atty/accountants giving them a heads up..so they can all keep watching. what's up with that?  she told me not to lose my passion. great.

So, at this point, it doesn't appear that we can count on any help from the legal system cuz they want the element present that grandma doesn't like him anymore.  She would defend him.  She thinks he's God, and we are apparently in no position to stand for her, becuz she's "of sound mind." Nuts.

I started looking around online for folks like you to see if I could get some input about how to get after this personality.  Me thinks a nastygram telling him all the laws he's violating will do the trick. Hey, HE doesnt know we cant get help!! If you just read the laws..he's screwed.  Obtaining the money he has under false pretenses, which he has done, is a felony-I for starters. Seems a con artist would shy from the legal system.  I feel confident that if I roll out enough of his b.s. and expose it that he'd find another playground. Tell him to come up with a one final lie to tell her about how he suddenly needs to move to NY to pursue one of his businesses that he's lied about. This is a hot find for him, however! lol  Hard to find a rich 95-year-old with a passive daughter who hates confrontation.  Nice breeding ground for him.

My deepest fantasy is that vision of handcuffs, but hell if I can figure out how to make that happen, I would in a New York minute. It's not like we're attached to it all being peachy for grandma, we just don't want to make a big mess that gets us nowhere.  I saw another resource that said just sue him.. for anything.. to get him in court to get heard.  But again, s'not my financial loss, so what could I sue him for?

I don't care about recouping anything. I just want him GONE..yesterday.  ok i'm babbling.

Ooops.. new reply.  My brother and I went to talk to her.  Hardly got 2 words out.. She screamed horrifically... had a chest pain attack, had to call the nurse.  A big scene.  The first replier here is likely right on..don't try to deprogram grandma.  I think it's beyond our scope.  The guy is a MASTER. She said he is wonderful.  He does EVERYthing for her.  He does.  She told my brother to get me out of there and mind my own business. My brother told her that we are very concerned that he is taking advantage of her.  She was having a FIT, crying, yelling at me, "See what you've done to me!!"  Yes he has access to everything.  He has taken over everything.  He takes her to the doctor.  He does everything.  She only has one other relative in town, a cousin...the rest are in California.  (We're in Oregon-she's in Washington-across the river from us. Yes, everyone everywhere knows the story... the care home.. doctors, the works.  Everyone always says something like.. face scrunched up...who IS that guy? There's something about him that is just odd.. suspicous.. weird antisocial skills.  Just more people "watching." This idiot ALWAYS makes a new move when she is going into the hospital...always.  She told my mother to go away and never come back.  Recently she did call and ask to see her.. and did even ask her to come this next week to stay w/her after eye surgery.  She is angry at my mother because "she made her go blind," and that's why nutcase is so wonderful.  HE follows UP on things!!  My mother didn't follow-up on a medication that had the wrong dose.  Ridiculousness.

[Debbie]

Exactly Mud!  My mother is the most significant heir, also why she was so hesitant for so long to speak up.. didn't want to look like the greedy heir.. another thing he could read and take advantage of...  While it would be certainly a dissapointment for her to not receive that.... you are right.  For us, the $$ is very secondary.  I am sad that my mother isn't over there fixing her hair and painting her fingernails.. instead that SOB is bringing her weird sweaters from garage sales.  He's a freak.

[debbie]

but.. excuse my legal system ignorance.. how can we SUE if we can't get the ear of an atty to help us navigate the very crazy court system?

[Debbie]

And another thing.  Since the guy is a psychopath.. who says he won't do something to her.  So aside from everything else.. sometimes we just .. screw it and let the chips fall... but then i think, dang, what if he does something to her.  We can't sit her and let her be in the care of a psychopath..... or is that not so much a typical trait of narcissism.. ok wait, ted bundy.

Well heck.  I do medical transcription.  I need to knock some out.. be back later to check in.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!

[mudpuppy]

but.. excuse my legal system ignorance.. how can we SUE if we can't get the ear of an atty to help us navigate the very crazy court system?

Get another lawyer. In my experience there are very few good lawyers, but they are out there. More importantly I don't think you even need a particularly good one, just an aggressive one. This guy sounds like he has stuck his head in a noose. I have to say it would be a first if you were not able to find a lawyer to sue somebody. 
The only person with standing to sue would be an heir.
You cannot count on her accountants or the banks to do anything in this matter. Its up to you and your mother it sounds like. I suspect that he would shrivel up like a salted snail with the prospect of a suit, but more importantly even if he doesn't it sounds like a clear cut case not only of undue influence but fraud if he is deceiving her.

Now the aftermath of a lawsuit would of course possibly be a mess. If grandma is still of a sound mind, you might get rid of this creep but have her disown you guys because of his departure. It might be worth amassing as much evidence prior to suing to confront him with and have him do as you suggest and give her some cock and bull story about better prospects somewhere else. That way she's not alienated and has a little peace and you guys save a bundle and still have a relationship with her.
Guys like this count on it being too much trouble for others to take them on. And the longer he is there the deeper his hooks sink in.

mud

[Debbie]

Hey Mud-
Yea, me? I'm just really the research person, and the tenacious pit bull.  Nothin' I'm getting. I just have some sort of intense distaste for cheaters and the like, and I lay in bed at night and picture this idiot runinng his deal with her... known her 2 years.  Boils my blood.  To be specific, this is my mother's STEP-mother, and she actually divorced by grandfather about 35 years ago.  My gfather had nothing.. but she remarried twice since then (brother-in-laws) with oil.  And voila!  She has been in our lives for 50 years.  My mother has been the most significant person in her life, always really. She never had children.  She has been a widow ..Again...For 15 years I'd guess.  My mom is single, and they have done things together long time.  I think it is significant that 15 or so years after my grandfather was long gone... she STILL maintained a relationship with my mom.  It sorta seems an additional statement on their relationship, cuz there was certainly no "have-to" involved.  So there you have it.  We have known her 50 years...with little money, middle money, lots of money.  This knucklehead shows up at 93.  It was weird.  He helped my mom, and then within days/weeks he was going to visit her on his own.  We thought he was so helpful.

But.. how can anybody sue for an inheritence that hasnt been executed yet?  My mom does have a lawyer friend that said if he makes off with something .. then when she DIES... he would represent her in a lawsuit..But now. I just want him GONE. He could drain that 300K and be who knows where in a heartbeat.  Can't imagine just standing by and letting him pull that off..there is also another money market account with a similar amount that he has been up to something with.. we could sue him later, if we can find him.  His background check.. p.o. boxes galore... maybe only 1 or 2 street addresses on the whole report.  Many p.o. boxes within the same zipcode.

Seems a plan could be.. send him the C-YA letter.  Put some conditions in it that will have him not tell her, and excuse himself nicely, or he has something to deal with.. if he goes, great.  If he doesn't, we find a professional to accompany us to a surprise party .. and tell him in the letter that will be the next fun event. On a few sites about N-people... there were many suggestions to play their game, be evasive, manipulative, threatening, do whatever possible to take their control away, and to expose all his secrets and lies... I was thinking of an anoymous letter that implies it is from many of her people, yet be evasive... let him know all these people he has been reported to... so he does not know where to look.... I like that idea.. it seems it would certainly strip his control.  What I read was this is the thing they can't live without. Their control; it's what they are all about.   Do you agree with that "tactic?"  Havent been much in the biz of writing nasty, manipulative, letters, but there's certainly an attaction to it here.  I personally can't imagine him defying it, but then I don't think like a kook either.  If none of that moves his mug outta the way.... my mom sues him after grandma dies.