Patience

[Stormchild]

Hi Sela

Ugh, this is going to be messy, I am sorry in advance.

You may actually want to tell the person who PM'd me to go boil their head, too.

I looked back at the PMs I received, and on second reading I suddenly realized that one of them contained some statements that - it was implied - came from PMs between this person and yourself.

These were things said in confidence, things said in pain, things that I understand completely in context, things that I do not hold against anyone, but that I really should never have seen. Things - it was implied in the PM - that were PM'd by you, to this person, regarding me.

In other words, if in fact these statements were taken from PMs you exchanged with someone else, then that person almost certainly violated your confidence in sending them to me.

I'm tiptoeing around here, because this is a mine field, and I'm really sorry. I went to bed, and couldn't sleep, kept thinking how I'd feel if someone lifted my private heart cries and mailed them to the person against whom I was crying out privately.

I have done my share of private crying out, in my lifetime. No harm, no foul, I understand, I understand!. No certainty on my part, really, that these statements were really made by you - or that they might not have been 'creatively enhanced' before being sent to me. But even if they were verbatim quotes, I understand, and there's no problem about them where I'm concerned.

But I kept tossing and turning tonight and realized - I have to let you know about this. Damn, damn and damn.

Because we're out in public here, I will not say who sent me the PMs. I'm sure you don't confide in huge swaths of people here, certainly not about something like this, so you probably can make an educated guess who to check in with.

I'm sure their intentions were good, but God, Sela, you need to be able to open your heart to someone and know that what you have shared will stay safely where you left it.

I am so sorry.

[Portia]

It was me.

I'm very sorry Storm to hear about your ulcer; I hope you can not worry or anything about what I have said or done and what it means. I'm here to tell the truth and I can do that. Okay? I'm sorry I put you in a position where you had to decide what to put on the board. Done now and that's okay with me. You did okay by me; I made mistakes. How are you doing?

Sela, I'm very sorry. I did send Storm some of your words on PM. I can't justify that. I won't try. That was just plain wrong and you're right, I need patience all right. And humility.

[Sela]

Oh Stormy:

 

What a position to put you in!!  I'm sorry for whatever I said, if I said it, to whoever, which I really don't remember, so that must have been another time, another mode and as you say......
privately crying out and who knows if I might have said the complete opposite after that, if I said anything, which I truly can't think of.    I've seen me say something derogatory about someone, in private, by pm, about someone, one day, and the next, or later, pm that I'm a complete idiot and where the heck do I get off thinking or saying such a thing.  I hope not a word went to your heart, Stormy.

it was implied - came from PMs between this person and yourself.

Maybe this is mistaken?  Maybe this could be clarrified?  Maybe not?  I don't know Stormy.  I should feel paranoid and as if my trust has been violated but to be honest....I hate to jump the gun based on

implied and

if in fact these statements were taken from PMs you exchanged with someone else,

So I'm not gonna panic, ok?

I have done my share of private crying out, in my lifetime. No harm, no foul, I understand, I understand!.

Thankyou Stormy.  Thankyou so much for this.

 Because we're out in public here, I will not say who sent me the PMs

Ofcourse, I understand and agree.  

I'm sure their intentions were good, but God, Sela, you need to be able to open your heart to someone and know that what you have shared will stay safely where you left it.

Absolutely.  I feel very disappointed that someone would forward actual stuff I wrote in private or otherwise pass on their version or some other.....about you......to you.

That is a very serious violation of my trust.

Thankyou for alerting me Stormy.

I am so sorry.

So am I.

I hope with all my heart the person will pm me themselves and fess up.  It takes courage but it will restore my faith in them, if they are honest about what they have done and are willing to face the consequences.

  Sela

[Sela]

That red warning came up telling me someone had posted ahead of me but I ignored it.

I figgered I could wait to read and not let whatever was said influence my post.

You P??

 

I did send Storm some of your words on PM. I can't justify that. I won't try.

It's honest and brave of you to admit this.

Why did you do it?  What motivated you?  What were you trying to achieve?

I need patience all right. And humility.

We all do.

I'm very sorry.

I believe you.

 

Sela

[Stormchild]

Portia, Sela -

This PM disclosure situation involved and affected me, but it isn't about me at this point. I just want to say to both of you, thank you and I mean it, for responding as you have - to my bit - I admire how you're talking to each other here  too, but it's not my place to say that, it's intruding if I say one more word about it.

What is my place is to forgive, and I have, I have, and Sela, does it help that as I sit here, I remember my own heart cries, and how I've thought first one thing and then the opposite about a person so many times myself? Does it help that I can't even bring to mind the words that were shared with me, now?

I hope it does, because it's true, and Portia, I hope that is a relief to you too. I do understand you were acting from caring, and you didn't know why I was away for so long, and you wanted to do whatever it took to get things resolved because your friend was in pain.

Wishing you both only goodness, only light, with all of my heart.

[Portia]

Thank you Storm, yes it does help.

Sela, I’m sorry.

Why did you do it?  
I made lots of assumptions about what was ‘really’ going on. I made up a story in my head that didn’t fit ‘reality’ at all. And I acted on that story. I’m not saying I know what ‘reality’ is now either. I don’t know.

What motivated you? 
Solving problems as I perceived them, as I assumed them to be.

What were you trying to achieve?
I wanted Storm to see how you were affected by her post to you. I wanted to tell her those things to help her respond to you. I assumed I knew what others felt and their motivations. I know none of those things.

Hope that makes sense.

[Sela]

Hi Storm:

Thanks to you too.  You have a big heart, I think. 

does it help that as I sit here, I remember my own heart cries, and how I've thought first one thing and then the opposite about a person so many times myself? Does it help that I can't even bring to mind the words that were shared with me, now?

Yes it helps.  It reminds me that we're all human and that we all make mistakes and that none of us is up on some high horse.....surely not me.  I've done my share of sinning and I'm not proud of it.  I cry out too, lot's of times, with toxic crap.  It needs to come out.  So do fears and weird thoughts and strange feelings and all kinds of stuff that gets churned around and around and might drive us nuts......if we don't just ......bleed........sometimes.

((((((((((((((((Portia)))))))))))))))))))

Your reasons matter to me.   Your goals sound like they were not meant to hurt but to help.   How can I possibly not forgive you?  I'd have to be an idiot.

I'm not. Hahahaha!  I can be dense.  I've done stupid things too.  I make mistakes.  I make bad choices.  I've said things I regret.  Acted in ways that were downright wrong.  And I'm still here.... ....and lived through it.

I forgive you and I still trust you.

My first thought, as I was reading Storm's post (the one exposing this information), was that if it was you....you would come clean.  You would own up.  You would take responsibility.  You would be honest.

You have and you are and I believe you meant well.  No worries.

Ok?

I have to go now.  Not sure if I'll get back on here today or not.   Or tomorrow either.  I might.  I can't tell.  It depends how much I get done around here.  Pulling weeds.  Shovelling dirt.  Planting.  While it isn't raining.  My garden beckons.

Hope you're ok.  I really hope you're ok.

I am.  Truly.

  Sela

 

[Sela]

Whew!  I don't know how much more weeding I can do today.  My back is killing me.

Hi again Stormy:

I hope you're still reading here.

Something is really bugging me so I'm going to put it here and see if I can gain a better idea of what happened.

I'm having a harder time understanding your motives for tattling on Portia, than I am with her motvies for passing on bits of a private message to you.  So I'm going to ask a bunch of questions and you can answer as you see fit, if you would please?

The way I see it.......I was feeling pretty good last night when I exited from here.  You and I had worked things out and I felt good about that.  Happy. 

This morning I found your post above and it was very upsetting.

What was your motive for telling me this, after we had already worked out our disagreement?
Did you think it would help me to know what P did?
Did you think it was important to let the whole board know?
You said yourself you were pretty sure she did what she did with good intentions.
So why was it necessary to expose her sin like that, in public?

What did you think would happen?
What reaction were you expecting from me?

I don't mean to upset you or hurt you in any way here.  I'm just trying to understand what went on.  It just isn't sitting right.   Maybe I'm missing something?

No rush getting back to me either.  I understand about your personal stuff/health and we all have stuff to get done.  I'm off to grocery shop.  It's much cooler and easier on the back.

I hope you're feeling better Storm.  Again, I'm just confused Storm.

  Sela

[Stormchild]

Sela, I was placed in a no win situation.

Had I not told you, I would have been essentially colluding with someone who violated your confidence. Someone you trusted. Someone you did not realize had done this.

I did not want to be in that position. It was not right for someone to put me there.

Telling you, I risked provoking an anger reaction, sooner or later. My telling was a form of whistle-blowing. I told you knowing that. Whistle-blowers are seldom thanked. They rock the boat.

I've also seen that PMs have been misused a lot recently. People threaten to disclose their contents on the board. I myself have been openly libeled on the board, by someone who totally fabricated that I was PMing them on a topic and for reasons that I considered defamatory. In that case, I reported the post to Richard [who deleted it]. I had, in fact, blocked that person from PMing me from the moment I reinstated my account here - for excellent reasons, it turns out. Who knows why they posted what they did?

But the whole PM thing seems to have become problematic, and I don't think it used to be.

Please give me credit for something: instead of telling you the way I did, and shielding both Portia's identity, which I did, and the details of the PM, which I also did, I could have chosen to put the PMs out here on the board. That, to me, would have been very wrong. I made a deliberate decision not to do that. Portia chose to disclose her actions out here. She could have PM'd you, easily, to settle this.

Not blaming, just pointing out that I have shown great restraint. Last night and today, anyway... and I'm still sorry about my lack of restraint earlier.

I didn't ask Portia to PM me. I didn't ask her to tell me what you told her in confidence. I wasn't going to be forced into taking ownership of it, by denying it had happened.

I didn't feel that I could PM you about this. Light is the best disinfectant. But as I said above, I was careful to protect the identity of the PMer and the content of the PMs. That was out of consideration for both of you.

I understand your need to follow up now. I'm afraid that we're all going to be left with a little residual discomfort about this, until enough time passes that we've all had a chance to show goodwill when other sets of chips are down.

I hope this helps. If it doesn't, and you continue to have concerns, perhaps we could discuss the matter with Richard. I'd be willing to hear what he has to think. I think I've done the best I could here under the circumstances.

[mudpuppy]

I just want to make a general point without at first referring to anyone in particular.

The overriding issue for me is trust.
Can I trust that what I say in private will be held in confidence? If I can't then how can meaningful private communication occur? That is one of, perhaps, the most important reasons PMs exist isn't it?
If that trust is breached to a third party then I absolutely think the first party has a right to know their private conversation is not so private. Otherwise they may continue to reveal things they do not want disseminated far and wide, that are. Seems like a no-brainer to me, but that's just me ( a no brainer ).

Now as to Portia in particular, I think she is a good egg who just made a mistake because she thought she was solving a problem that wasn't getting solved. I know I have gotten myself in hot water by trying to solve other's problems. I hope its not what I'm doing right now. Anyway, Portia admitted she put her foot in it and has apologized.
Stormy did not reveal her name and none of us had any way of knowing who she was talking about. And by airing it here on the board Portia was given the opportunity to stand up and if anything seem pretty darn honest and responsible by publically admitting it was her when she didn't have to.

I don't think Stormy had any good alternatives but I do think she took the least bad one.

mud

[Portia]

I have a question. I want the truth out. This is part of the truth.

Storm

Why did you post that post to Sela on Jacmac’s empathy thread? The one that I privately described to Sela as ‘vicious’?

The one that finishes:
I've parsed this one as an example to the student. We'll consider it a public service. Have a nice day.

When you posted that, I thought, given our previous two PMs, that I was the ‘student’ you referred to. I could be wrong. I’m happy for those PMs to be public by the way, but not for Sela’s words to be public. You can quote anything (anything) I’ve said, but not the PM sharing Sela’s words about her feelings.

So why did you post that frankly vicious and incredibly brutal post to Sela?

I want to know the truth. I am not into point-scoring or bullying or shaming. Just the truth.

[lightofheart]

Hi Stormy,

For what it's worth, gotta' agree with Mud here:

I don't think Stormy had any good alternatives but I do think she took the least bad one.

I think that took guts. You're right, no one thanks whistle-blowers; they usually get fired. imho, separate of this situation, you gave everyone an opportunity to discuss the issue of PMs in general and expectations around confidentiality. I was going to PM you this...but, seemed important to thank you publicly for kickstarting a conversation that needed to unfold. imho, you had the best of intentions.

Best to all,
LoH

[mudpuppy]

So why did you post that frankly vicious and incredibly brutal post to Sela?

I want to know the truth. I am not into point-scoring or bullying or shaming. Just the truth.

Oh for heaven's sake. Is everybody here going bonkers?

Portia I just got done defending you and then you turn around and try to reopen a can of worms that is strictly between Stormy and Sela  that they have already settled and that quite frankly you already made worse once by intervening. What is the point of that? Just to restart a fight that has already ended? The truth has already been told and they settled it.


Amazing.

mud

[Portia]

Mud, thank you for defending me. Are you defending 'me' or what you perceive to be the truth?

Does the truth need defence?

I believe that it is what I said to Storm on PM that caused Storm to post that post to Sela.

Her reference to 'the student' makes me think this. The implications of that are in our PMs.

I could be wrong. But in some way I feel responsible for that post to Sela, and for Sela's pain.

So, there is more to this than meets the eye perhaps.

I don't know Storm's motivations, so I'm asking: why?

If it was to 'teach' me, that Sela had to receive that pain, I want to know, and I want to know why.

Does that seem fair? That is rhetorical. At this point, I'm not sure I even need an answer. I know who I trust.

[mudpuppy]

Portia,

You seem to continually be seeking answers to things and asking questions to that end. Sometimes the best course is to just let it be and accept that you don't know and don't need to know, if only for the sake of others.

I'm taking a walk.

mud