NPD Antisocial PD and love

[WRITE]

I have thought a lot about love all my life, and have often become a perfectionist in how I chose to demonstrate it and how I judged other people's ability to give it; but I have come to the conclusion that human love is an imperfect thing, and we are all doing our best with what we have.

As some of you know I have been involved with my ex for over 25 years, he has NPD, though his current psychiatrist feels it isn't a useful label for a patient & doesn't use it.

Does he love me?
Yes, I have no doubt, and I know that within his capacity he would do anything to help me.

The big things about being involved with him are he does not change much and he takes an amazing amount of energy out of the relationship. Other people learn about you and respond to you and don't make the same errors over and over if they want to stay in a relationship with you. They give to you, and there's an ebb and flow of reciprocal emotions and actions between you.

He can't do this, and has patterns of relating which have remained the same since he was a teen, so it is too frustrating to have him as a husband and keep going around and around the cycle.

I do hope we will always be good friends though, and where we do love each other it is a precious thing to me and I have forgiven him any hurt he has caused me, as I hope he has forgiven me.

***

When we are still hurting and angry it is almost impossible to believe that things are so different than how we wanted them to be, that so much life and energy has been wasted.
It's only later I realised that nothing is really wasted- and I wouldn't have been in a relationship with my ex if I had better boundaries, stronger self-esteem, and the ability to let go.

I also picked up some of his N behaviours ( alongside my own faults like stubborness ) and together we turned our life into a battleground that 20 years' experience later I would not do.

***

For people who have been involved with a psycopath, someone who has had no insight or compassion or remorse or integrity, I think you can only turn away from that person, have the least possible to do with them, hopefully within a legal framework.

I think a psycopath definition is someone who respects NO boundaries ( even societal and legal ones ) and therefore cannot love. Psycopath is a word which has fallen from common useage except in horror stories, Antisocial Personality I guess it's called now.

The red flags are different for Antisocial PD and NPD- Ns tend to be successful and more capable in social settings, to know what impresses people, better all-round play-actors. Psycopaths have a long history of violence and criminality, and their initial boasting would make us more uncomfortable. Some people find tough-guy behaviour attractive I suppose, but it is more obviously abusive or potentially abusive.

Saying that- if you're like me and prone to switching off your red flag detector....and feeling sorry for people and listening to hard luck stories....trusting people after they broke your trust....making excuses for them and seeing their viewpoint instead of your own. Well, you get the picture...

I am just venturing tentatively out into the real world again, but I ask a lot of questions and try not to tune out the answers! I want to know how a guy treats the waitress who spills his drink over him, his mother, his cat...what he says if I disagree with him, how he handles being embarrassed, if he calls as often as I do, if he's prepared to make half the effort, does he listen and really hear?

Enough rambling, time to go attack some sugar ants who invaded my kitchen last night. They definitely don't respect my boundaries....

[WRITE]

Are you sleeping OK?

yes, I'm doing pretty good. You?

[Hopalong]

Bravo, Moon mom!

Hops

[pennyplant]

Well I got that other girl's phone number and called her mom. Also this same girl left phone messages on our phone that were mean.So any way I feel good about stopping this kid.So that was what my energy was spent on last 2 days and my tiny 13 year
old is safe.I picked her up from the mall and she did not have one wet hair on her head.

Moon, this is wonderful.  Your daughter will always remember what you did for her.  Sometimes it is just as simple as someone telling the bully to stop.  I'm so glad you called her mother.  PP

[WRITE]

good for you Moonlight!

[Brigid]

Write,
My exnh was never mean, angry or bullying.  In fact, quite the opposite.  He was very afraid of confrontation, spent a lot of time being self-deprecating and was, I believe, a passive-aggressive personality in addition to being n.  Where his n behaviors come in, are his compulsive lying (quite often to avoid confrontation or anger), lack of empathy (which really only became apparent when he decided he wanted to end the marriage), inability to be intimate, and addiction to pornography and masturbation.  He hid all those behaviors behind a mask of being a really great guy, who is very funny, but always likes to be the center of attention.

Now that we have been apart for nearly 3 years, and I have moved on with my life and happy in a new relationship, he wants to be my friend.  He acts like nothing happened between us that was extremely devastating to me at the time, and I should accept him back in my life as more than just the father of our children.  The fact that he thinks that I could so easily put all that pain aside and welcome him back in my life with open arms I guess, is testament to his true lack of empathy.  He truly doesn't get it.

I have no interest in being his friend or having him in my life as any more than the father of my children.  In fact when I do have to be in his presence, I find him extremely annoying and childlike and wonder how I ever put up with it for 22 years and then was so devastated when it ended. 

When he suggested last week that maybe he could sit with my b/f and I at our D's graduation (my b/f also had a son in that class) because our son wanted to sit with me and he would be all alone, I was stunned.  First of all, our D did not want to see us sitting together--thought that would be very awkward and secondly, it would be just plain weird and uncomfortable.  It was bad enough having to deal with the after-ceremony greetings between all the ex's, children, etc.  Anyway, I ended up asking our son to sit with him so he wouldn't be alone since gee, I guess the still-married girlfriend wouldn't want to be making that kind of public appearance.

I guess my point is (if I even have one  ), there are many different personality types among the world of n's.  How we choose to deal with them, if we must, is so dependant on those personalities.  Also recognizing the games they can play, lies they can tell and manipulation techniques they use, is also key to not being drawn into their web again.   

Write, it sounds like you are using some very wise determining factors for moving forward.  How someone treats the people who serve them, imo, is so reflective of how they treat their loved ones.  Also, certainly, how they are with their children, pets, parents, etc., is also key.  There's lots more to it, but that is a very good starting point.

Moon,
Good job with your little D.  The mother bear certainly showed up that day.

Brigid

[WRITE]

there are many different personality types among the world of n's.  How we choose to deal with them, if we must, is so dependant on those personalities.

absolutely.

And I recognise those childlike qualities too.
My ex is 'a good man but' and the but is too big (! ) and unchanging.
I waited for ages whilst he tried to change but even though he is a little changed it's too slow and I've had to move on.

I guess the still-married girlfriend wouldn't want to be making that kind of public appearance
probably for the best!

[WRITE]

one annoying thing ( funny how I can never think of many yet there are loads really ) just happened again:
he leaves whilst I am on the phone dealing with something else!
It happenes so often it can't be coincidence, but a conversation he can overhear between me and someone else seems to make him feel rejected, years ago it made him angry and he's even pressed the receiver button and cut me off when we were young and he wanted my attention.

He wasn't in a hurry or anything, and it was obvious from what I was saying I wasn't going to be talking long...

[WRITE]

a lot of Ns seem to be 'helping people' but especially doctors- that combination of life-or-death responsibility & G_dlike status plus the need to develop a tough professional veneer seem to cause emotional dissociation.

I had an article about it once, but I can't find it now

[Hopalong]

What an amazing thing to read this father's day.
thank you for sharing this, Mooon.
You sound clear, and calm....

hugs,
Hops

[penelope]

hey moon,

I just realized that you type BP to mean BiPolar.  I've used BPD to mean Borderline Personality Disorder (a form of N disturbance, I read somewhere).  This is what i think my Mom has - Borderline Personality Disorder.  I hope you didn't think I meant bipolar when I typed BPD? 

Does anyone have more info on Borderline Personality Disorder and whether it is truly a form of N disturbance or not?

thanks,

penelope

[Certain Hope]

Hi Penelope,

When I first began to suspect that my ex-husband was something more than just eccentric, I researched mental illness online and thought I'd found the answer in Borderline Personality Disorder. Although I don't recall ever reading that it's a form of "N disturbance", I definitely think it could be called an identity disturbance. The main reason I thought the Borderline disorder fit him was that he seemed to require loads of attention and was capable of pitching a fit when he didn't get it.... very histrionic. It's funny... he and I even discussed the ins and outs of BPD at that time and I remember printing out a load of info on the topic, some of which he perused. He actually seemed to like the idea that this was his "problem" and for a while, his behavior improved. Anyhow, it soon became quite apparent that there was far more to it, not that BPD isn't difficult enough to deal with... since that time I've had several encounters with borderline folks, one of whom remains a friend... whew, lots of rage there. In summary ~ to me, BPD is to a loose cannon as NPD is to an ICBM.

Hope

[WRITE]

a personality disorder is a faulty pattern of behaviour which does not change with time and experience unlike other people's lives where we make mistakes and learn and change. There are several named personality disorders: paranoid, schizoid, schizotypal, histrionic, narcissistic, borderline, avoidant, dependent, obsessive-compulsive and antisocial ( there are probably a couple more )

There is dispute amongst psychiatrists about whether personality disorders respond to treatment, some doctors believe they are not treatable. Others have had various degress of success depending on the severity of the behaviours and the responsiveness of the person.

My father I would say has Borderline, and it is with him I learned that setting boundaries is pointless, he will push and push and sulk and tantrum and you're either the best or the worst to him, never in between. He has 'mellowed' as he got older and less in the arena of competitiveness eg with relationships/ work. I don't have a great deal of contact, though I write letters I find it doesn't take much for him to go back to his old patterns.
He's very frustrating because he can be very charming and pleasant, but he will react like a small child when he doesn't get his own way and in particular when life goes wrong ( unlike my Narcissist ex who is excellent at organising things and dealing with a crisis. Interestingly- I married my husband because he seemed so sensible and grown up and capable, which he is in public! )
That was the worst thing growing up with my father- we had to be the adults because any trauma and he would go on a drinking binge or take to his bed or throw a tantrum, and my early years were marred with having to handle things the adults should have taken care of not a child.

When I had my son he was very angry because I would not leave the newborn baby and go help him with a family crisis. He is very selfish but not malicious more attention-seeking and capricious, will talk in a baby voice or joke or flirt to get his own way.

He was abandonned as a child, by his father's severe alcoholism and disappearance, and his mother's neglect and susequent death. If someone says somethign like, 'I had a bad childhood experience' he cannot listen but immediately goes off about his own, even if it's insensitive.

[penelope]

hmmm, that's interesting write.  I do see the parallels to my mother.

  There is dispute amongst psychiatrists about whether personality disorders respond to treatment, some doctors believe they are not treatable.

This is the strange thing I can't figure out about my Mom.  She was in therapy (until her therapist retired) for several years, and was starting to uncover lots of stuff from her childhood.  The most significant thing she uncovered was that her alcoholic father molested her.  But unlike some people, who'd take this information and seek healing, the only way I ever saw my Mom use this information was as an excuse for her inappropriate behavior.  When she'd get angry and it was obvious she was acting 'nuts' (throwing things, yelling, being verbally abusive), she'd often break down crying (I called em alligator tears) and say "I'm the reason I am the way I am because my father molested me."  I was always confused at this point and upset, as it sounded to me like I should excuse her behavior and maybe even soothe her at this point.  That's a lot of responsibility to put on a kid.  Later as an adult, it did work eventually - I started soothing her and feeling bad for her (empathizing) when this happened.

Others have had various degress of success depending on the severity of the behaviors and the responsiveness of the person.

I really wish I could talk to my Mom's therapist, to get his take on whether the years - 3? 5? of therapy had any impact, in his opinion..  But of course, this would be unethical.  I'd also ask what he thought about my Dad, who told me once "Yeah, your mother and I go in to see Dr. R a couple times a year to ya know, get an adjustment.  It's sort of like what you have to do to maintain your car."  This blew me away, when I understood the goals of therapy myself.  I thought, does he really believe that therapy is about impressing the Therapist, and getting Mom to think he's acting alright? (Dad is NPD, likely).

My father I would say has Borderline, and it is with him I learned that setting boundaries is pointless, he will push and push and sulk and tantrum and you're either the best or the worst to him, never in between. He has 'mellowed' as he got older and less in the arena of competitiveness eg with relationships/ work. I don't have a great deal of contact, though I write letters I find it doesn't take much for him to go back to his old patterns.

I'm sorry write.  I know it's difficult.  Superficial.  And icky.

He's very frustrating because he can be very charming and pleasant, but he will react like a small child when he doesn't get his own way and in particular when life goes wrong ( unlike my Narcissist ex who is excellent at organizing things and dealing with a crisis. Interestingly- I married my husband because he seemed so sensible and grown up and capable, which he is in public!

That is interesting.

When I had my son he was very angry because I would not leave the newborn baby and go help him with a family crisis. He is very selfish but not malicious more attention-seeking and capricious, will talk in a baby voice or joke or flirt to get his own way.

Now this sounds like my mother.  Very borderline, I think.  If I understand the disorder correctly.  They simply don't understand how their request could be considered 1) selfish 2) rude 3) childish or 4) unreasonable.  It is pointless arguing with them, they just feel they're entitled.  When I was still talking to Mom, I found the easiest thing to do was to just lie to her.  I'd tell her things like: oh, my car isn't running right now, so I can't come visit.  It was just easier than saying no (actually, I never considered that option, my Mom would never accept it). The strange thing is, I hate lying, but I lied perpetually to my parents since the time I was a teenager. This is why it was so foreign to me when my first recent counselor said:  ya know, you can set boundaries with your mom, you don't have to stop talking to her.  Then, he met her...and shortly after that I got a new counselor.  I'm not sure he realized how difficult she really is, even after she ranted to him about her (6 adult, with families of their own) children, and how they were doing this or that "wrong."

He was abandoned as a child, by his father's severe alcoholism and disappearance, and his mother's neglect and subsequent death. If someone says something like, 'I had a bad childhood experience' he cannot listen but immediately goes off about his own, even if it's insensitive.

This is also where I can see the parallels to my mom and her alcoholic father.

pen

[axa]

Hi,

Just found this site today and am feeling very low.  I have been aware for some time that my partner is a narcissist and just letting in the information that he is not going to change.  I have been reading posts here and they ring extremely loud bells for me.

The lack of empathy is what I find really scary.  I know that I will have to end the relationship because he will not......too much supply from me.........but giving up on the relationship, which I know can never be real, is so very painful right now.

Like so many of you I invested so much in this and realise that it was all some sort of "game".  I feel terribly abused and used and as time goes on, despite his protestations of love, I realise that I mean nothing other than supply to him.  I feel so terribly sad and am wondering where I am going to find the energy and strenght to get out. 

axa