NPD Antisocial PD and love

[Hopalong]

Hi Axa,
I hope you find some of that energy and strength here.

When I was going through the same thing, I joined a weekly women's support group which was tremendously empowering and at the same time did therapy and joined a non-creedal church. I got very busy creating support for myself.

I still had to go through the pain, but not alone. It made all the difference.

Are any of those options for you?

Hopalong

[WRITE]

This is why it was so foreign to me when my first recent counselor said:  ya know, you can set boundaries with your mom, you don't have to stop talking to her.  Then, he met her...and shortly after that I got a new counselor.  I'm not sure he realized how difficult she really is, even after she ranted to him about her (6 adult, with families of their own) children, and how they were doing this or that "wrong."

it's one problem with therapy- so many therapists have not lived the lives we have, everything they know is from text books and lectures...it's so frustrating to be told do A then B then C and that's how it must work.

Plus most stuff on the internet about Personality Disorder is goal-orientated- when the truth is you are going to be in a whirlwind of confusion being pulled in many directions if you are involved with someone with a PD.I believe the most extreme 'psycopathic' people fit a total profile- not that you'll be alive to testify if you nang around & try and fathom them for too long- but for everyone else it's a mostly individual thing, some people will have issues in one area, some people in others.

The one big thing anyone involved in a PD person's life will have in bucketloads- frustration.
Forget your needs, these are people with BIG problems, and no easy solutions ( maybe no solutions at all )

But don't be surprised either if your search for help and healing solutions is just as crazy.

[Portia]

Write

Amen to your last three sentences above. Reading you I feel less alone and somehow more content with my place amongst my fellow humans. Rolling around in this mess and trying to make some sense of it. best to you (((((Write)))))), P

[reallyME]

WRITE,

I agree with what you said about how some therapists just can't relate to personality disorders.  The shocking thing to me, is that I actually know more about such topics than many of the therapists do, at my local mental health center!

When I tried to talk to my daughter's former counselor about NPD and BPD, she just sort of looked at me with a blank stare and said "wow, reallllllllllllllllllllllly?  I never heard of that.  Can you get me some more information about it?"  I was flabbergasted!

[penelope]

when the truth is you are going to be in a whirlwind of confusion being pulled in many directions if you are involved with someone with a PD

thank you write, it just feels validating that you understand this so well.  And..the frustration.

hugs,
pb

[lightofheart]

Hi Penelope,

This is one of the best borderline personality disorder sites I've found:

http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.borderline.html

Looking at the the DSM-IV criteria for both BPD and NPD, I think many if not most folks who struggle with BPD would also approach or meet the criteria for NPD. My best guess is my MIL and the spouse of one of my closest friends could both be diagnosed with BPD if they chose treatment, and both of them would also meet the criteria for NPD as a secondary diagnosis.

One incredibly helpful book on BPD = Stop Walking on Eggshells: Coping When Someone you Care About has Borderline Personality Disorder. It's more practical than diagnostic, really explained the 'looping', imho, it's easy to get caught up in around BPD issues. I've read several research studies that suggest it's common for many folks with BPD to experience a lessening of the disorder with age. There are results from at least one major follow-up study at the link above. I haven't seen that with the two people in my life, but I think that may have a lot to do with the fact that neither is being treated and both were older than 30 when I met them. 

Best to you, Penelope, and Everyone
LoH

PS (on edit) - Does anyone else experience this? I often feel uneasy after saying almost anything at all about a personality disorder(s). Not quite this harsh, but something on the lines of 'Easy for you to say/What do you know about it?' After this post I picked up my novel again. One character is a psychologist, who immediately said she believed "Every person in therapy has a love disorder." Sounded much kinder than 'personality disorder'. Know I'm word-obsessed, but I think, on an emotional level, I object to that term, like there's some implication that who someone is, their own unique self, is just wrong. Has some echo of absolute judgment to me.

[pennyplant]

After this post I picked up my novel again. One character is a psychologist, who immediately said she believed "Every person in therapy has a love disorder." Sounded much kinder than 'personality disorder'. Know I'm word-obsessed, but I think, on an emotional level, I object to that term, like there's some implication that who someone is, their own unique self, is just wrong. Has some echo of absolute judgment to me.

I've read a lot of old newspapers and in the past, a hundred years ago or more, when they reported personal news such as someone going to the insane asylum, sometimes the diagnosis was actually "disappointed in love."  In those days, people would be sent to these places and, even if they received not much in the way of "treatment", the condition often resolved itself in about two years.  It is thought that the patients gave support to each other with all that they probably had in common, and that this support is what healed the emotional conditions the people had been hospitalized for.

Pennyplant

[reallyME]

LOH,

The most uneasy I have felt talking about Personality Disorders, has been on this very message board.  As I've said, I suspect there are a few people who have pd's here, and they get very touchy when it's uncovered.

~RM

[penelope]

reallyme,

Do you believe I have a personality disorder?

penelope bean

[WRITE]

The most uneasy I have felt talking about Personality Disorders, has been on this very message board.  As I've said, I suspect there are a few people who have pd's here, and they get very touchy when it's uncovered.

people get uneasy about lots of things, in lots of situations.
I have only had one foot in the Board since someone's post implied I am not unlike the worst N they had known. Not because I feel I am N or because I am particularly sensitive to what people think.
It's a Bipolar thing: we have tremendous energy and it runs away with us; we have to learn to hold off and say- am I robbing this situation? Am I too much here? Over the years I have learned as a tool for Bipolar- back off, see what is going on, be more sensitive ( because otherwise I might be totally insensitive )

When I first saw your religious postings here Laura, especially the demonology ones I was very uncomfortable and didn't see it as healthy.
Now you've been around a while, I do see a pattern to your posting which leans on the religious when you are upset maybe?  Sometimes you post a lot of religious quotes and stuff, I am never quite sure if there's a hidden message.
But mostly you are trying to share a strong Christian religious message, I see that.

Some people might see that as evangelising, and not like it, others will read it as uplifting.
A hindu or Muslim might not respond to it at all.

Is it important to you to give a spiritual message even if you are asking for support and help for yourself?


Posting and Personality Disorder:
I haven't seen any patterns here but I expect the main personality disorders ( borderline and narcissistic ) have common traits in that the person  must win an argument, will tantrum and sulk if unanswered, but mostly I would guess- shift ground/ opinions constantly in order to be in the right.

One of the hardest things to live with a PD person is there's no stationary goalpoast: blink and the rules have changed, for no apparent reason. And develop as much sensitivity as you like, it won't matter, you'll miss the barely perceptible inexplicable mood changes anyway.

With a borderline you're the greatest alive or the biggest letdown...with an N you're possibly hesitantly fantastic if it advances the N- position, but with big reservations & mostly you're going to be disappointed if you so much as try to experience ( let alone relive ) a happy moment without the N subsequently bursting your bubble and drawing important matters back to them...

I discussed PD with my psychiatric teacher friend yesterday, and she agreed- NPD is unlikely to make it to the hospital, Borderline is very common there because of suicide attempts and more willingness to 'get help' ( even if it's only on the BPD personality person's terms & not real help )

Psycopath is more likely to be in prison ( beginning with juvenile ) though she says there are a few youngsters who are still attention-seeking, haven't resorted to total destruct. Though they are mega-destructive.

disappointed in love

I guess around the turn of the previous century post-Victorian reformation started to happen in the UK; by 1985 it was a complete reversal of institutions to 'care in the community' in small designated environments supervised by caring wardens with access to doctors and therapy where required.
Nice idea, but a long way short of fulfilling the needs of people who had been institutionalised for years, often for antisocial behaviours, but sometimes just for being demonised by their families: masturbation/ lesbianism and homosexuality/ even unmarried mothers have fallen under this 'protective legislation' over the years.
All over the UK were little stories from doctors and psychiatric nurses about trying to restore to their 'communities' people who had lived their whole lives in institutions. I was always fascinated, but no one seems to want to hear hard-luck stories any more, not unless they are sensationalist or profitable.

Sometimes I wish I'd paid more attention, for there was a whole way of life passing- thankfully.
But I guess it's all history too.

[Hopalong]

Write, that is fascinating.
Bravo to you for noticing and caring about those imprisoned people.

thanks for this post.

Hops

[reallyME]

Penelope,

There are certain characteristics that I notice in the people I felt had a personality disorder.  As of this time, I have not seen anything problematic being presented by you.  I'm not a doctor, so I can't diagnose, but I can give my view of the traits I've seen in people regarding PD.

here is what Borderline is:

Borderline Personality Disorder
What is Borderline Personality Disorder?
Quick Summary:
Borderline personality disorder is characterized by mood instability and poor self-image. People with this disorder are prone to constant mood swings and bouts of anger. Often, they will take their anger out on themselves, causing injury to their own body. Suicidal threats and actions are not uncommon. Borderlines think in very black and white terms and often form intense, conflict-ridden relationships. They are quick to anger when their expectations are not met.

Self-injury or attempted suicide
Strong feelings of anger, anxiety, or depression that last for several hours
Impulsive behavior
Drug or alcohol abuse
Feelings of low self-worth
Unstable relationships with friends, family, and boyfriends/girlfriends
Additional Information:
Borderline personality disorder was so-named because it was originally thought to be at the "borderline" of psychosis. The disorder is relatively common, affecting 2% of adults. Women are much more likely to suffer borderline than men. Nearly 20% of psychiatric hospitalizations are due to borderline. With treatment, patients are often able to see their symptoms improve.

Treatment involves therapy in which the patient learns to talk through his or her feelings rather than unleashing them in destructive and self-defeating ways. Medication may be helpful, and treatment of any alcohol or substance abuse issues is required. Brief hospitalization is sometimes required, especially in cases involving psychotic episodes or suicide threats or attempts.
Books on Borderline Personality Disorder
 Get Me Out of Here : My Recovery from Borderline Personality Disorder
"As the 29-year old accountant, wife, and mother of young children would soon discover, it was the diagnosis that finally explained her explosive anger, manipulative behaviors, and self-destructive episodes- including bouts of anorexia, substance abuse, and sexual promiscuity."

 Stop Walking on Eggshells; Coping When Someone You Care about Has Borderline Personality Disorder
"A self-help guide that helps the family members and friends of individuals with borderline personality disorder (BPD) understand this self-destructive disorder and learn what they can do to cope with it and take care of themselves."

 Borderline Personality Disorder Demystified: An Essential Guide to Understanding and Living With BPD
"Dr. Robert Friedel, a leading expert on the disorder and a pioneer in its treatment, turns his vast personal experience into a useful and supportive guide for everyone living with and seeking to understand this condition."

 I Hate You, Don't Leave Me : Understanding the Borderline Personality
"Dr. Jerold J. Kreisman and health writer Hal Straus offer much-needed professional advice, helping victims and their families to understand and cope with this troubling, shockingly widespread affliction."

 The Angry Heart: Overcoming Borderline and Addictive Disorders : An Interactive Self-Help Guide
"Self-study is sometimes the best route for the BPD who is serious about getting better."

 Sometimes I Act Crazy : Living with Borderline Personality Disorder
"Do you experience frightening, often violent mood swings that make you fear for your sanity? Are you often depressed? Do you engage in self-destructive behaviors such as drug or alcohol abuse, anorexia, compulsive eating, self-cutting, and hair pulling? Do you feel empty inside, or as if you don’t know who you are?"

 Girl, Interrupted (DVD)
"Winona Ryder conveys the confusion and chaos that signified Kaysen's life during nearly 18 months of voluntary institutionalization beginning in 1967."


Symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder and then, Narcissistic Personality Disorder...each person can compare for themselves:

At least five of the following are necessary with NPD for a diagnosis:

has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by other special or high-status people (or institutions)
requires excessive admiration
has a strong sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
is often envious or believes others are envious of him or her
has arrogant affect, haughty behaviors or attitudes


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Borderlines:  Poor self-image                                  NPD- grandiose sense of self-importance

mood swings                                                               has arrogant affect, haughty behaviors or attitudes

bouts of anger                                                            sense of entitlement "I deserve this cause I"m so wonderful"

feelings of low self-worth                                              lacking empathy "putting self in another's shoes"

sees others as all good/all bad                                       envious of others/believes others envy her too

clings for fear o abandonment                                       takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

threatens suicide                                                         requires excessive admiration

self-destructive behavior                            is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

[penelope]

hi pavelle,

thanks for demystifying that this is a simple thing that someone on a message board can diagnose about us.  I totally agree.  As a child of two PD's (I believe), a lot of what we respond to is learned behavoir and "normal" reactions to projections - trying to hide or diminish our pain with alcohol, for example - to real abuse.

hugs pavelle - I see in you an incredible capacity to change because you seem to recognize yourself.  And that is the most important and healthy thing we can do for ourselves.  We are a lot alike pavelle.

pb

[Portia]

Hi Pavelle

I’m sure I exhibited Borderline symptoms in my late teens and early 20s, but I’m not PD. And I drank a fair bit (and add ‘etc’ to that). I’m now 44 and can see that if I’d have known what therapy was, if I’d had access to it, if I’d talked to anyone about what my head was like, just maybe I could have had help earlier. I don’t know. I had to reach rock bottom, I had to find that my world was completely and utterly out of control before I would address my head (“Dear head, I think we have a problem”).

There’s a lot to be said I think for being the right age for analysis and reflection. Those who aren’t P disordered, who can think and reflect and go through the cycle of shock, anger, denial, grief, acceptance….will do it. I honestly think if your brain wants to do it – for basic survival reasons – then it will happen. With NPD, some brain functions – ability to self-reflect in particular – aren’t there it seems: they’re not present. No wonder they do don’t well in therapy, with NPD it seems an impossibility that they could?

It's not going to be that simple if he even stays past this crash of Ns loss (of me)

What do they do when supply is withdrawn? They find it elsewhere. Of course he’ll get over the crash, that’s how they function. There is no alternative.

This is where I get compassion. I also know, in my truth it is a lone journey, not unlike that of an alcoholic. No one can do it for them.

Pavelle, I doubt that he even knows a journey exists and even if kind of 'gets it', he’s not boarding that train. He doesn’t have the first clue about what it’s really about. Everything is supply. The ‘journey’ is supply (hey lets talk about me, great!). That’s as far as it goes. It ain’t gonna happen. And it has nothing to do with you, does it?  

[Portia]

Hi Write

Re: UK, 'care in the community'. I don’t have direct experience, only what I read in the papers, listen to on Radio 4 and see with my own eyes. Yes, community care is a huge improvement on those grisly inhuman institutions. But.

I think the idea of community care is being used to cut down the number of people who would benefit from being in hospital. Many NHS hospitals are closing (my local one has gone and the nearest A&E is now maybe 10 miles away, which is okay, but this town had a big hospital until the last few years). So folks who are suicidal are ending up in ‘care homes’, walking out of them and jumping off railway bridges.

Another factor is that our prisons are at bursting point: we’re at the maximum of the prison population (can’t remember if it’s 70,000 or 90,000). Maybe it’s coincidence but offenders, instead of being given prison sentences, are given ‘community service’ jobs. And those that are in prison, 70%-90% have some form of mental disturbance (from mild depression through to psychopathy).

There’s a discussion happening here right now about the length of sentences that child sex offenders receive. A man sent for ‘life’ is up for parole and could end up serving something like 5 years, and the victim’s family have mounted a campaign to stop this happening. But, prisons are at breaking point. How many people are on the much sensationalised sex-offenders register? 70,000. And some campaign groups want a Megan’s law introduced so that we know when we have a sex offender living next to a school. A man caught urinating in public can be on that register (indecent exposure) – so the register itself is questionable. And as for Megan’s Law (I hope I’ve got this correct, I’m talking from memory), well people who want to offend don’t have to do it on their doorstep. I find all this media chat about the issue hugely frustrating and worrying. Today’s Independent paper carries the front page headline “Prozac for paedophiles” (100 in prison will be tested with Prozac to see if it reduces the desire to offend). I don’t know. I have a little knowledge about all this and others have even less. It worries me that these are issues being debated publicly (risk of vigilantism) by folks who want to … do their stuff.

Back to care in the community – it saves money and takes the burden off hospitals but I see people in my town wandering about, not being ‘cared’ for. A few times I’ve called the police because I’ve seen someone walking unsteadily along the middle of a very busy dual carriageway (where nobody usually walks). It isn’t working perfectly, but then, what does I guess.

Hey. I guess I feel strongly about all this!

Sensitive and interesting book out recently ‘Stuart, a life backwards’ by Alexander Masters about a man from Cambridge, in and out of prison and care. “When Masters met Stuart, he was lying on a sidewalk in Cambridge, England. In this moving—and occasionally very funny—portrait, Masters follows his friend back in time to discover how a gregarious boy turned into a homeless drunk” Long excerpt here: http://www.bordersstores.com/features/feature.jsp?file=stuart