Splitting [All-good? All-bad? Aww, Malarkey!]

[lightofheart]

Hi Portia,

You're welcome. For what it's worth, I always read your posts, all of them. Re. what I wrote, and your question about interpretation:

Hi Portia,
I really valued what you've written about free choice/free will and not wanting to impose your world view on others. I see loads of saved emotional energy for me when I can remember my own vision is just a tiny glimpse of the world, and there are so many other ideas to consider. I'm glad you put out that reminder,

Yes, interpreting what you’ve said (please correct me if I’m wrong): I think Storm is a fantastic asset to the board. Storm provides the board with oodles of great information and interpretation. Thank you Storm for doing this. I like reading your stuff and find it helpful.

[/color]

Thank you for asking, because that's not what I meant. I said what I did to you, Jac, and Storm directly, because I meant those words directly. I meant what I wrote to you as acknowledgment and a compliment about words from you that I found very helpful. What I had to say to Storm was said to her, not you. I'm sorry if writing all three of you in the same post confused the issue.

I said what I did Portia, trying to encourage you to voice your opinion. I think everybody's voice here is valuable.
 

You’re correct it’s “stirring things up” - but for me? Do I need to be strong to have an opinion? I don't think so. It’s continuing to stir up the unresolved situation between Storm and myself from the ‘Patience’ thread. Storm appears to be ignoring me and is trying now to get others here to ignore me. I don’t think that’s okay. Do you, or don't you see that happening here? I'm not asking for a reply, just posing the question, okay?

[/color]

Of course, you're right; a person doesn't need to be strong to have an opinion. But, imho (which is all I've got) a person does need to be strong to keep posting despite feeling persecuted and ignored, which you've said. If I felt that way, there's a pretty good chance I'd head for the hills rather than keep posting. I appreciate that about you, and meant it as a compliment, Portia. Really.

My interpretation of what's going on here, if that's your question, is that Storm is posting about recurring patterns she's seen here and that she didn't mention anyone by name for good reason. As to whether she's ignoring you, I wouldn't say that, because my guess would be that she reads your posts. My observation is that she is choosing not to engage. I have two thoughts about that. On one hand, I feel for you, because you seem hurt and I wish you weren't. On the other hand, Stormy was direct back on the Patience thread about her reluctance to 'speak' to you again and her reasons. (I haven't read any hint that she wants others to ignore you) So, speaking only for me, I'm puzzled as to why you keep addressing posts to someone who told you in a polite way, some time ago, that she was done talking, especially since you've voiced that feeling ignored is a trigger for you. Especially posts that question her sincerity and seem to make implications. From way over here, I see you feeding your own bad feeling, and I wince, because doesn't that hurt?

As far as what is and isn't okay goes, imho it's perfectly okay for anyone to stop talking to someone if they feel it's best for them. I think it's an important step in self-healing. For what it's worth, the reason I answered this post from you, Portia, and not your last is because now I get the sense that you're listening. We all have defenses, and one of mine is that I shut up when I don't feel heard.

Take good care,
LoH

[penelope]

hi LOH,

I think you've perfectly described a dynamic that I couldn't describe.

As far as what is and isn't okay goes, imho it's perfectly okay for anyone to stop talking to someone if they feel it's best for them.

Portia, you should try to respect this: when someone says, "I don't want to talk anymore" they're in essence saying it's too painful.  Something I've noticed is that I've PM'd you to tell you the same thing and you said "I think you should put this on the board, it's obvious you need support!"  Hey, I don't need support, I have myself Portia.  I am strong.  Stronger than you think.  I just want you to realize, you're not helping me at the moment.  I need some peace.  I told you that I don't want to engage with you, in essence.  Please don't read more into it than that.  I also explained my reason (I want to keep this as a healthy place for me). 

I know that it seems to you that I'm agreeing with someone else here, and that they've had some kind of influence over me, but it's really not like that Portia.  I came back from a week long hiatus, to a place I deeply feel is good and about healing, and found it had taken an ugly turn.  I decided not to follow, that's all. 


penelope

[lightofheart]

Right back at you, Jac:

Good for you!!!  I  also like your candor.  I have thoughts like this all the time about some of my "crazy" behavior.  I know myself.  I'm perfectly capable of going there again, that's why I have to avoid certain situations/people sometimes.

[/color]

And there is another mouthful, imho, the whole world would be better off accepting about themselves. 'Cause, I'm pretty old, and I have yet to meet a single person, starting with me, the rock-dropper, who isn't capable of some pretty demented stuff in a given moment. Personally, I feel luckier, and stronger, for whatever clarity I've scrambled to about the off-the-charts tendencies in my makeup.

 

best to you,
LoH

[Sela]

Hi Stormy,

You said you didn't want to talk with me any more and you blocked me from pm'ing you so I've tried to respect that and have not posted to you.....not even posted to any of your threads (I think?  Or maybe I did?  I know I'm trying not to).

However, if you're going to post about me and especially about what you've decided my intentions are/were then it almost seems like you're trying to communicate to me (not with me, mind you).

I like two sided games that allow both people in.  I think it's fairer that way.  One sided ones aren't fair at all.  I think that kind of making statements about how you've interpreted stuff, especially about another person's motives, intentions/what's in their heart....Stormy..........is not at all fair, when you also decide that only you are allowed to speak and that you won't respond to the one(s) you're speaking about.  I think complaining about being ignored and then ignoring others isn't fair either.  And talking "to" them rather than "with" them.......is childish and manipulative behaviour.  Sorry Storm, but that's what I think.  Not to harm you.  Not to make you the bad guy.  Only because you're making this big stink about others being jerked around while jerking people around and because I've behaved in messed up/screwed up ways myself, lot's of times and needed to just stop.

It's just weird to see you acting so unfair.  What's up Stormy?  What's going on?  

I'd rather discuss whatever issues peacefully with you Storm.  I'm not looking for "pretexts to take offense" at you and never have been.  Sorry you've decided that I am or have been.

Sela

[Portia]

LoH
Thanks for the compliment and for giving me the chance to see how I’d mis-read your post! Easy to misunderstand eh? I thought anyone talking to me on this thread would be ‘telling me off’ somehow! Easy to do, emotional thinking. Glad if I say anything that makes sense or resonates along the way. Sorry I am a bit involved here and likely to be prickly I guess, misinterpreting.

As far as what is and isn't okay goes, imho it's perfectly okay for anyone to stop talking to someone if they feel it's best for them.

I agree. But I don’t think it’s okay to then make derogatory remarks that directly target the person they’re not talking to. 

I think it's an important step in self-healing. For what it's worth, the reason I answered this post from you, Portia, and not your last is because now I get the sense that you're listening.

Gosh yes I’m listening. Always am. And thinking hard. Don’t always say so. Sometimes I say little here. Sometimes it’s very pointed, what I say. It’s always the truth, my truth, but I use the actual words fairly carefully most of the time I hope. Why did you think I wasn’t listening? Which post? The one where you wanted me to talk about why I said what I did to Storm? Things like "No you're not sorry Storm"? That was between Storm and me. Storm most likely knows what that meant. Okay? Your perception is yours. It wasn't meant for you. I'm sorry LoH but it wasn't meant for you and I didn't want to discuss it with you. That was a boundary. I listened and decided not to engage about my words to Storm with you. You still want me to? I will if you want. It will be for you, not Storm, not me. You decide okay? I'm willing. I know what I said and I know why. I don't feel the need to defend it but I will explain it if you want me to.

We all have defenses, and one of mine is that I shut up when I don't feel heard.

I might shut up. Or I might yak away terribly. Or maybe I don’t care if I’m not heard? Maybe I care about equality, fairness, honesty. And compassion too. But compassion at the price of my integrity? No. That’s just how I am.

Take care too LoH. Thanks for talking. I appreciate it. I'm serious about the other thing. No worries either way.

[Portia]

Penelope, i

if you don’t want to talk to me, don’t talk to me. Okay?

Portia, you should try to respect this: when someone says, "I don't want to talk anymore" they're in essence saying it's too painful.

How do you know what someone else means? I should try to respect. I almost swore then. I should try to respect. Give me strength. I’m tired now. I do respect. It don’t do me no good it seems!

If you don’t want to talk to me, don’t talk to me. Your choice. Don’t make it my responsibility. You came to me on PM, I didn’t come to you. Facts.

Please don’t talk about me either. That’s rude. Not saying you would, just making a general comment. Thanks.

Come on, have a heart eh? - this - little pile of doo-dah:

I came back from a week long hiatus, to a place I deeply feel is good and about healing, and found it had taken an ugly turn.

Because of what or who Penelope? Who are you blaming or shaming here for your board not being as you want it on your return?

Someone tell me to sod off now please. I’m running out of politeness and simple consideration for other people’s states of minds. I have a mind too and it’s weary. Better go. Take care all.

[Healing&Hopeful]

Can I request a time out folks? I get the impression there's a lot of feelings running high here and maybe we could all benefit from a bit of time out?

[Portia]

H&H thanks for that. I'm away for the day. Tired now. Too much. Thanks!

[lightofheart]

Hi Portia,

You're welcome for the compliment. Thanks for asking for clarification, 'cause it is so easy to misunderstand and take things personally once prickliness sets in. Me too, there (no wonder most critters avoid a catcus). No worries, I didn't take it personally, and, imho, it's big of you to apologize while feeling prickly, I appreciate it.

Gosh yes I’m listening. Always am. And thinking hard. Don’t always say so. Sometimes I say little here. Sometimes it’s very pointed, what I say. It’s always the truth, my truth, but I use the actual words fairly carefully most of the time I hope. Why did you think I wasn’t listening? Which post? The one where you wanted me to talk about why I said what I did to Storm? Things like "No you're not sorry Storm"?

[/color]

Yes, that post, though not 'cause of what you said about your words to Storm. I appreciate that you set that boundary and applaud you for that, for what it's worth. And respect it. I think you've already explained your POV on that issue with care and thoroughness.

This is the part that suggested to me that you didn't 'hear' what I'd written.
 

I've been thinking about your post. I wonder if you want me to reply, or you wanted to make your views known and a reply from me isn't necessary? I don't mind either way. I feel you're ....disappointed maybe? Confused? Not sure how you feel about this.

[/color]

I try to be careful with my language, too. Professional affliction. From my POV, subjective as it is, I thought my post/questions to you were straightforward. I said I was "curious about your goal", "I would really like to understand," and said I was puzzled. The fact that you responded by questioning whether I really wanted a reply and questioned what I was feeling, to me, indicated several possibilities. Maybe you didn't understand my post, or didn't believe me, or were in a place, in your own thinking, of reading so far between the lines here that you couldn't process plainspoken words for what they were? Bottom line, I didn't think you'd heard me, and I couldn't think of a simpler way to express what I said. I saw your post as a genuine expression of where you were coming from and appreciated it. Conversationally, though, it felt like a dead end. My sense was that you were upset, and I saw a minefield of ways I could trip on your feelings. So I didn't go there. I did think long and hard about it, because you've admitted that feeling ignored is a trigger for you, but I hoped there was compassion in my silence. I'm really glad you've given me this chance to explain why, though.

Thanks for talking yourself, Portia. I really hope you keep at it. imho, you have much to share.

Best,
LoH

[Portia]

LoH almost gone, can’t resist this because it’s so honest

I didn't think you'd heard me, and I couldn't think of a simpler way to express what I said.

I think I get you now. I think I reacted negatively to that post, thinking you were ‘telling me off’ maybe? The last line I think (I’m remembering, not looking) from you? Think I thought: you sound annoyed at me. That was my baseline if you like ‘LoH sounds annoyed at me, what’s the best thing to say’ kind of thing. I won’t go back now if that’s okay, I must go for today. But I wanted to say I appreciate your reply and your persistence to be understood and to understand. That is so valuable to me. gone now! best to you

[lightofheart]

Hi H& H,

Can I request a time out folks? I get the impression there's a lot of feelings running high here and maybe we could all benefit from a bit of time out?

[/color]

I'm sorry, didn't mean to step on this well-intentioned request. You and I and Portia all cross-posted. I was in the midst of pulling my reply when Portia responded to me, so I left it.

Am sending deep breaths and trickles of calm to anyone who's feeling_____(anything they don't want to).   Amazing how air-conditioned this guy looks? Pretty cool for someone who's always getting his button pushed. Oww, that was terrible. Excuse me.

Best to all,
LoH

[penelope]

I feel fine actually.  Quite calm, thanks LOH.  You do have sort of a calming influence on peeps.   

pen

[Hopalong]

I agree with you, Jac.
Nobody can compel anything here, save Doc G if he asks a poster to remove something for policy reasons.

I do think it's good to remember that this is sort of an online support group (as I think of it anyway) and a set of behaviors has evolved that mostly, as I see it, includes a lot of sensitivity and effort to understand another's POV. For the great majority of the time and in the great majority of members.

So while nobody can silence or make anyone else voiceless, I think it's a good idea if someone has refused to speak to you, but talks about you, if it hurts, to say how painful that is.

I think if it were me, I would feel pain, humiliation, and ostracization. It would probably inflame wounds I still carry from childhood, when being shunned and disliked was so hurtful I can't even verbalize it.

Maybe they had good reason. Maybe I was an idiot. Maybe I did such terrible things that I should be shunned, or serve some terrible penance, and even then never know if I would be accepted into the fold. I do remember feeling out of step, and wanting to die from the hurt, as it went on nonstop until late high school.

Anyway, that's what all this can remind me of, so that's why I yearn for compassion in all directions, with the hope that we can remember that to be offended means a choice to take offense...rather than a larger view...

Damn hard though. (On my own topic...off the thread, I was just thinking about my brother coming and I glanced at my dog, and said, you're good dog, do me a favor and tear his throat out.) 

So THIS is how well I've completely hahaha recovered from the Nabuse from him in my childhood. Add in the playground bullies? God, I'll be in therapy when I'm 97. And I'll be deaf, so everytime the T says, and tell me how does that make you feel.....I'll be going WHAAAAT? WHAAAAAAAAAT? like NMom the whole hour.

Oy. Hope you're not sick of me blabbing but I just don't want to stop. I could talk a fountain.

(((((((((((Jac)))))))))))

Hops

[penelope]

I third the suggestion for a timeout..but will just add this   

sometimes people don't want to talk to someone else because it's painful to them, I imagine.  It's what I think, not a fact, but I can imagine this.  It really has nothing to do with the other person.  They can choose to internalize it, but that's their choice.

Sometimes, sigh, it's not all about the other person - actually, this is something a counselor once told me.  He said 9 times out of 10, people are thinking about themselves and their needs (to be left alone in this case), they're not trying to hurt the other person.

pen

[Certain Hope]

Well, since I'm chiming, may as well add something here, too...  I can relate to the desire to stop (or at least pause) communication with a person with whom I find my equilibrium disturbed. Occasions of this are fewer and farther between these days, but still, once in awhile, I can tell that overload is approaching and it's time to step away from the dialogue. It's more of a reflex than a well thought-out decision and as Pen said, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other person. One of ex-N's more obnoxious traits was to refuse to allow a moment's peace, including keeping me up all hours of the night with his incessant monologue re: HIS feelings, HIS needs, etc, etc. If I'd escape into the bathroom for a bit, he'd be waiting immediately outside the door for me when I came out, and pick up right where he'd left off... never again.
Hope