Can we ever love again?

[nqw]

Hi everyone, this is my first post though I have been reading many of the boards for a long time. On March 29, 2005 my NH walked out of our home and disappeared. Things had been tense for awhile at home (more than usual), the walking on eggshells had been going on for years. Of course everything was always my fault. I eventually tracked him down living at a local campground with OW. I was, and am, completely devastated.

This man was/is the love of my life. There was enough intermittent reinforcement to keep me hooked, and enough grain of truth in his blaming of me(I'm not perfect, obviously)for me to have taken it all on for a long time. I am a professional woman (a physician) and he had me full of self doubt and insecurity. Over the past 15 months I have been doing a mountain of reading about adultery, relationships, midlife crisis, verbal abuse, NPD etc. It has helped alot and I am much much better, but still in so much pain!!! I don't think my Nh is full blown NPD, but he does have strong narcissistic traits. I still love him with all of my heart, and feel that if I had been more aware of narcissism etc., that I wouldn't have taken so much of his behavior so personally and would have managed our relationship in a different way. I don't want to give up on my marriage. At this point I have not seen or spoken to my NH in over 3 months. It is as if I never existed. We were together for 12 years. He was absolutely wonderful at first, nursed me throuth breast cancer, we had a very passionate loving relationship. I have never thought about being with anyone else since I have been with him. The last 3 years or so, however, there was alot of arguing and hurt feelings (on my part). We made love about 5-6 times per year by then (always good, no deviancy there at all).
I am more confident now and know that it ALL was not MY fault, though I have my moments too. Of course I'm sure he can still push my buttons, but I don't even know because I have not seen him. Anyway, I know I am a good person, that I am loveable etc etc. My question is - will I be able to love that pasionately again? It was truly love at first sight and very special. I mean, are all "out of this world" passions like that always a result of narcissism and manipulation????? I want to have love like that again. I don't know if I am the type who can be satisfied with calm, cool and comfy, and I am really not a drama queen. I can't see myself married to my brother or even (just) a good friend, there has to be some "fire" to it. I hope somebody out there understands what I am asking? Thanks, nqw

[Certain Hope]

Hi nqw,

I think that I do understand what you're asking. "Making up" following drama within an intimate relationship can definitely inspire some passionate lovemaking and no doubt there are multiple opportunities to "make up" when involved with someone who has strong N'ish tendancies. But sheesh, what a cost there is! (Insert 3 paragraphs of ranting here...)

But to answer your question...  No, not all "out of this world" passions are a result of narcissism and manipulation, or even based in fantasy/drama. I wondered about that as well, after several years of experiencing the absolute draining effects of my marriage to N; but now I know that there can be a genuine fire between a man and woman who are also good friends, if the basis of the relationship is truth, honesty, and a genuine appreciation/acceptance for each other, inside and out. In my view, there's no healthier, more passionate relationship depicted anywhere than in the Song of Solomon. I'm remarried now and we aim toward that model.. not always succeeding, but definitely enjoying the learning process. It's not been easy, with me having to overcome all the kneejerk reactions former-N engrained into me. There has been plenty to un-learn, but one thing that's really spurred me on is the knowledge that above all, N wanted to spoil me for any other relationship and leave me like a heap of rubble in his wake. I am stubborn enough to deny him that satisfaction, and hopeful enough to trust that the law of reaping and sowing does still apply. N dis-illusioned me, for sure. But who wants to live under a bunch of illusions, when real life is so much better? You're going to make it, nqw, and although you may not be able to imagine it right now, it'll be so much better than you ever dreamt.... and it'll be real.
Hope

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hi nqw and welcome to the board.

Maybe a good thread for you to read if you haven't already is "what love is to you, really".  There is a lot there about recipocal love, and what we each believe love to be.

In answer to your question, can we ever love again?  Definitely.  From your post I felt that you are going through if I did this, I could make it work, if I responded differently I could make it work, if I didn't take things as personally, I could make it work.  But it's a partnership, a marriage, and IMHO "I" doesn't work unless "I" is totally at fault... which you can see clearly that you are not.

I won't pretend the road ahead is easy, whichever path you decide to take... sometimes it's easier to go back, go back to what we know than face the changes ahead, but through bad times the sun is always shining at the end of that path.... it's up to us to get there.

Take care

H&H xx

[Hopalong]

Welcome NQW,

What a painful, honest post. I am very sorry for what you are going through. It must an emotional wound the equivalent of your bout with cancer.

You will survive this too.

Since a breakup with my last N man I no longer yearn for "out of this world" passion, as you say. I'm now hoping one day to find compassion, compatibility and chemistry (in that order).

Have you considered finding a good therapist, for support as you work through what has happened?

I recommend a certain book a lot, forgive the repeat: Escape from Intimacy, by Anne Wilson Schaef. She has a superb list of characteristics that lead to "pseudo" relationships. The 3rd and 4th pages of Chapter 4 are eye-openers, imo, and I think they'd help you.

Glad you found the board, and I hope you'll find much support and wisdom here. You are not alone.

Best,
Hopalong

[nqw]

Thank you Hope, H&H and Hopalong, for answering my post. I am overwhelmed with the understanding and caring that I already feel here. Although I have alot of support and many great friends, it is still a lonely road. It is hard to describe to others what this is all about. Even with well chosen words it is not possible to articulate exactly the essence of what happened, and when speaking outloud it all seems so obvious (abuse etc.) when it really isn't. Anyway, I do feel a measure of hope when reading your replies. It has been a long 15 months, I am in limbo since he refusues to talk to me. We have no property settlement, no divorce, no contact, no nothing. I still have these feelings of wanting to work on my marriage or move on, but really cannot do either at this point. I sent all of my info over to his lawyer last fall (interogatories etc.), he has never sent anything to me. I think he is depressed and is either in lala land or is acting out the ultimate in passive/aggressive ploys. He does have an underactive thyroid and I think he has been undermedicated for years (partly his own fault). I heard through the grapevine that he finally is getting this adjusted and has had 3 medication adjustments in the last 2 to 3 months. I think this may have alot to do with his irritability, but i also don't want to give him any easy, convenient excusues. nqw

[mum]

nqw: so sorry you are in pain right now. But considering your story, it's inevitable. And considering your story, from my perspective (years of trying to make it work with the wrong man...an N, but that's not the whole point)....I think you are in for years and years of pain IF you focus on this guy, and how to get that back (that whatever it was...mostly bad as of late, it sounds).
You sound like a wonderful person, you know you are, so give it time. Give yourself some time. Find out what this pain is trying to tell you about yourself, your life. It's not something to fix or get out of (the pain) it's just there...for a reason.

I used to think it "must be LOVE" if it hurts so bad"... and that's just the kind of up and down adreniline rushes that kept me STUCK in a marriage with an absolute emotional vampire. It wasn't love, I just didn't value myself enoguh to want better than that for my life. He had brainwashed me (or did I do that myself with the help of the movies...?) into thinking the big hormone rushes were actually love.
I promise....the gut wrenching adrenelin (sp??) rush is NOT love. Can you get that again? And again? With regularity? SURE, if you want to do serial dating forever, OR stay with a big baby of a man who does that "bad boy" thing for you.
Hope I am not being too familiar, I've just been there...so this is my past talking, hoping you can glean what you need from it.

IF you spend some time on getting to know yourself (sounds finky, but that's what could probably help the most), you may just find the kind of love that flips not only your stomache, but that involves every single cell of your physical being AND your soul.... The stomache flips and rushes DO come with that, surprisingly enough, but not in the scary, "oh my gosh this is so DANGEROUS to kind of hate/love someone like this" way.
It's more the "oh my gosh, I never thought I could feel this way about someone I trust with my very life"!

Having had the former and now am enjoying the latter, I can assure you, door number 2 is much happier!

[penelope]

hi nqw,

welcome

Can I ask you a question?  What is it about your NH that you think you love? 

Sometimes, when we realize we need to let go of an N, we resist - we're not quite sure.  I know, I have two N parents, and I recently did finally let them go.    But this man walked out of your life.  Can I ask, do you have children? 

You are a breast cancer survivor nqw, is it possible this plays on your decision to stay with him?  Are there any other factors weighing in on the decision that have less to do with love (the act of loving someone involves being there for them, which he certainly isn't there for you at this time, is there a question of getting him back when he's left?)  Is it more logistical, or a feeling of "what am I going to do without him?"  rather than the practical, "he was really a great guy for me"

just some questions to ponder.  I know this is terribly hard for you.  Please try to give yourself some of the basic things that are nurturing and kind.  If you were your own mother, how would you treat yourself right now, in other words?  It is a terrible loss for you at this time and its very important that you treat yourself with utter kindness and delicacy.  You can do the best you can for yourself, ya know?

pen

[nqw61]

Hi Pen...I've tried really hard to figure that out. Do I miss him? Am I just lonely? Am I co-dependent? Addicted? It's quite hard to figure out.

I know I am supposed to judge the relationship for what it is, not for what it could be.  And it was a very dysfunctional relationship. I have no doubt about his narcissistic traits, and that I was emotionally abused, and continue to be. But I do think he would like to be a better man than he has been lately, that he (and I) have been unhappy and have blamed each other, and that perhaps this separation could serve as a turning point, and that with counseling and newfound knowledge and understanding that things could be better than ever. I mean, if things could be better with this man that I already have 12 years of history with, we watched our children grow (he has 3, I have one, none together) then I would prefer to spend my energy there than starting a whole new relationship. Obviously there are no guarantees, and if things strted repeating themselves, then I would hope I would recognize that and then definitely leave. How do I know if I don't give it a try? Of course none of this really matters unless he wants to give it another try, and so far that doesn't seem to be the case. I wonder if this is a midlfe crisis (he is 54) and if I should give it time......as you can see, I drive myself crazy!! I'm ok with biding my time, I'm not in any rush, in the meantime I gather information and visit with friends, go out etc. But the question of ever feeling "madly in love" again was weighing on my mind and I really wanted to find others that had found true love and joy after being emotionally devastated by an N. Thanks, nqw

[Certain Hope]

Dear nqw,

No need to respond to this if you're spent on this topic for now. I know how emotionally exhausting it can be to even attempt to verbalize the substance of the quandry in which N leaves his target. You said something that really struck me here:

   "Even with well chosen words it is not possible to articulate exactly the essence of what happened, and when speaking outloud it all seems so obvious (abuse etc.) when it really isn't. "

I well remember how hazy and obscure it all appeared when I was in the midst of N's warp. Nothing is clear and obvious then. But I just wanted to offer a slight shift in perspective to you here.... if speaking outloud makes it all seem so obvious, then maybe that's because it really is obvious, once you've stepped outside the fog into the more cognitive, rational arena of speech.  I know this seems like a very minor point, but I recall how easy it is to get stuck within the realm of all N's subtleties and miss the forest for the trees. N's smoke and mirrors routine had me all befuddled for a good long while before his more blatant abuse smacked me in the head like a 2X4.

I hear you asking for closure, for one more chance to be better, to do better, to fix what's broken. But you didn't break it in the first place, did you? And if he's N, nothing you can do will ever be enough. Hugs, nqw.  I know what it's like to feel so deeply invested in someone, so responsible, so...  attached to the outcome. I also know that N's thrive on limbo, which is exactly where they'll try to keep their targets just in case they ever have use of them again. Regardless of what he decides to do, you don't have to remain in that limbo if you choose to stop allowing your future to hinge on his next move. You may not be able to get to that place right now, but it will come as you gain a better foothold on who you are just all by yourself, without anyone else directing or influencing you, and that sense of desperation simply melts away. That's my prayer for you.
Hope

[WRITE]

Hi nqw

my ex has NPD and we tried for years- or more probably I tried & he eventually capitulated.

I understand you love him, I love my ex, and maybe if I was meeting him for the first time now without all the years of eggshells/ abuse/ difficulties I would think differently, give him a chance?

But the truth is there's only so much anyone can give to another unreciprocated, and a limit to how long an unhealthy relationship can last.

That's not to say you won't have this ambivalence & pain as you leave it...or miss aspects of the relationship, however irritating the rest of it.

Sometimes I look at my ex and think 'what if'.
But I know that it is simply wishful thinking, and nothing I do will ever get him to stick with self-care, medication or therapy. He doesn't change with me- he gets worse quite often, in his mind I have taken up some of the responsibility his parents dropped.

In fact- I am noticing as I withdraw further and more from his life he is changing because of that.
Whether that is healthy growth and change or because he doesn't want to be alone, I can't know.
But it does show me how enmeshed our lives had become.

And I do breathe so many big sighs of relief now:

I can have a puppy! ( the jealousy of my ex is amazing, even though when no one is looking he adores this loving little dog! )
Peaceful evenings! ( no blaring tv. Candles. My music. Silence if I like! )
No feelings of daily rejection! ( big things like intimacy/sex to little things like he hates my cooking/ singing which everyone else loves )
I am not responsible for him! ( and especially his big depressions which outrivalled any of my bipolar swings....in fact he used to say I made up my illness 'to get at him' )

You don't need an abusive relationship nqw, you need a period of freedom and regrouping, heling time, maybe some good therapy and a deep-seated good self-esteem position which says 'I love myself too much to compromise by loving you'. And a total self-care regime from diet to relaxation to finding a new interest and career.

If you can't let go of him yet, permit yourself to take a time out. You seem to know you need one.

[penelope]

But the question of ever feeling "madly in love" again was weighing on my mind and I really wanted to find others that had found true love and joy after being emotionally devastated by an N.

Oh that.  sure.  I can tell you that after being devasted by my exN b/f (who is also an alcoholic), it woke me up and it was the first time in my life I was receptive to and actually found someone good for me.  I'm with this person now.  It's wonderful.  So yes it does happen, don't worry about that.   

pen

[Brigid]

nqw,

Welcome.  I have walked a similar path as you, but my xnh left me after 22 years of marriage and 2 children.  I also wanted to save the marriage, but he wouldn't have anything to do with me.  It took a lot of therapy to get me past the point of wanting him back.

You indicated that your relationship was passionate, but you only had sex 5-6 times per year.  Toward the end, we probably didn't even have it that often, but that was entirely my exh's doing, as I would have been willing much more often.  I found out after he left that he had been more interested in having sex with himself while watching porn than being intimate with me for a good part of our marriage.  He also chose to have an affair (still is 3 years later) with a married woman.  Both behaviors are typically n as they do not have to engage in true intimacy and the partners are unavailable.

Like you, I consider myself a bright, strong woman, but somehow was sucked into thinking my relationship was OK and happy.  When the separation started to occur, I wanted to blame it on him having a midlife crisis, but months later realized there was much more to it.  Thankfully, my therapist was able to explain that my h was n and I started studying and learning what that means.  Essentially, I learned that I would be much better off in the long run without him in my life.

But the question of ever feeling "madly in love" again was weighing on my mind and I really wanted to find others that had found true love and joy after being emotionally devastated by an N

I will respond to this with a resounding YES.  I am in a relationship now with a wonderful man with whom I am madly in love, who loves me just as much and I have more passion and intimacy than I know what to do with.  It is sooooooo much better than my marriage ever was and just keeps getting better.  It can happen, but you must work through your current situation and heal from that before pursuing any new interests.  I hope you can get to the point where you realize that you deserve more than what you were getting.

Blessings,

Brigid 

[nqw61]

Brigid,

Thanks so much for your post. I went to therapy a few times awhile back, but I think I will go back as I still fight this "urge" to want him back, but it is amazing how just these few answers to my post have helped, as well as reading throughout this board. But I have to read every day to "rephresh" and recharge, gather strenghth and courage, or else I find myself slipping back into the "maybe it's mlc or just bad communication and if he snaps out of it or could just see what he is losing and we both work at it, we can start over and have a great marriage, because we were SOOO in love etc., etc." It's amazing the hold they have on us. I am coming to understand, however, that it is also a reflection of how normal and good WE are, to have such deep feelings and goodwill that they cannot be so easily wrenched out of us and discarded.

The sex 5-6 times a year was only the last 2 to 3 years, and that like you was entirely my husbands doing. In the 12 years we were together I never denied his advances, never had a headache, was always eager and pleased. There is nothing I enjoyed more than making love to my husband.

Your post and Penelope's (thanks Pen!), and Hope, Hopalong, H&H, mum and Jacmac, and many others on this board as I have been reading, have really been key in giving me a so much needed sense of peace, hope and relief. I am so thankful to all of you.

nqw

[Brigid]

nqw,
I would really recommend that you give therapy another try right now if you can.  It is important to find someone with whom you can connect and then stay with it until you work through all the internal damage and pain you are suffering.  I was in weekly therapy for 2 years, then went to bi-weekly and finally monthly until my therapist told me I was too happy to be in therapy after 28 months.  It took a full year with my therapist before I could stop focusing on my xnh and venture back to my childhood.  It was a very painful and arduous process, but I am now so glad that I saw it all the way through.

I know much of my wanting him back stemmed from my great fear of abandonment and like you, the fear that I would never again have love and passion in my life.  What I couldn't see at the time, was that I didn't have love and passion in my life--I had a male family member, who came home from work, sat around and played his guitar, watched TV, never talked to me and slept on the other side of my bed while rarely ever touching me in any fashion.  I was so focused on raising the kids and taking care of the household, because he couldn't manage anything but his job, that I didn't see or have the time to examine how meaningless our relationship was.  What I imagined or fantasized as a great family and marriage, was not the reality.  We did have fun as a family, but neither the kids and I, nor any of our friends or other family members, had any idea that my xh was having an affair, keeping lots of secrets, or getting ready to flee the marriage.

But I try not to beat myself up about being so blind to that anymore (what would be the point?), and accept that it was part of my plan of life, I have 2 wonderful children as a memory of what was good about the marriage, the separation forced me into therapy which I had needed for many years, and when that door finally closed, another one opened and I am now happier than I can ever remember being (other than with my children). 

But there were many, many months of unhappiness, pain, sadness, lonliness and desperation.  Thank God I had my children to keep me focused and moving forward.  I was commited to getting them through the divorce with as little scarring as possible.  I am proud of myself for the effort I made on their behalf and I believe I am being rewarded for that effort now.

Be kind to yourself and look for small successes as you slog through the abyss.  There will always be setbacks, but if you keep your eye on the light at the end of the tunnel, you will get there.

Hugs,

Brigid

[nqw61]

Thanks Brigid,

I will take your advice and restart my therapy. I know I will need it also because my husband has basically been living as if I/us never existed and I do have to get this divorce done as part of my moving on. The financial side will be a nightmare as I have more assets than he does but I know he is going to try to get as much as he can, he feels he is entitled to it, for all the "trouble" I put him through. Never mind that I paid for 90% of everything, planned all the trips, etc. Like your husband, all he could apparently manage was his work. He even had the nerve to call me useless and worthless. And I took it all on!! Well, no more. Thanks again,

nqw