Author Topic: Introduction and trying to stay on course with divorce  (Read 5830 times)

pavelle

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Introduction and trying to stay on course with divorce
« on: June 21, 2006, 07:43:00 PM »
Hello to all out there.

I have been reading for quite some time and found this group filled with such balanced souls and opinions, truly refreshing for me at this juncture. I'm pretty lonely right now and sad about my life, though also knowing that I need to keep staying on course and go the distance with divorcing my N husband-for both our sakes. This is difficult because my decision has caused some pretty severe injury to him as I'm a main source of NS for him, if not the only adult source at this juncture and he is pretty discombobulated and nutty at this time and seemingly desperate and intensely needy, so he is "trying" very hard to avoid my divorcing him and acting very childlike and sad. He is also living with his N mother and broken father and pretty isolated other than his work, which is, frighteningly, as a therapist to troubled teenage boys, whom he spends most of his time flattering to extract Ns from and is pretty much a "peer" to/with, so they like him. He lives a life of a 17 yr old basically right now, its rather frightening. He spends money on gadgets which he shows them, plays the same videogames, is late on his paperwork and has a pretty shallow ability and grasp of the healing process or even good DSM diagnostic capacity. As of yet, his supervisor (he has yet to get his license since he just got his MA) seems to not have caught onto his serious limitations, though he has already borrowed cash advances and other poor boundary issues, but is flying along with his flattery, excuses and charm, she is also a bit, well greedy and he is a good attractor of clientele, presents well etc.
I deal with a great deal of guilt about all this. I too was charmed into many things, I have a good background in psychology, though no formal degree. I wrote many of his grad school papers (is this classic or what?) supported him financially through his grad work and basically made the big mistake that now has credentials. In return, he married me, though to be honest I wasn't that desperate for marriage, having been married before and not really needing to be married to validate me. I think I just went nuts, actually I don't think I went nuts, I think now I was nuts. Like all the oxygen was removed from part of my brain and still hasn't all returned properly. Thing is, I know he believes this is all "normal" like it is ok to have your gf write your papers, or your client evals or whatever, he focused always on the outcome of everything, which should have sent huge warning signs to me, but I was pretty blinded, in a suspension of belief of my instincts always, which is just bizarre as I am no stranger to Narcissisism, not one bit...but that is also the problem, or is the problem too. I am totally adapted to it.
My father is a classic N,diagnosed as one long ago in the 70's, my mother is strongly a potential one as well, she would never dare let us in on a diagnosis, though would tout my fathers like a victory march. My sister and I used to joke that our parents divorce had a custody battle about who would take the children, not who wanted them. "not my weekend" was pretty standard fare for them. My father is a successful Art Director, my mother a private practice psychotherapist herself. Dealing with self centred folk is pretty much standard fare for my life, or not dealing. My parents are a management deal, not a nurturing one. I'm the "bad kid" my sister is the "successful kid", I'm the "pretty thin one" she is the "fat one", I'm the "slut" (got pregnant and married young then divorced), she's the "sensible one" oh the list goes on and on. I've been in therapy and lived away from my parents for 25 yrs now with varied levels of contact, depending upon the craziness of both myself and them (and the treatment I'm receiving). I've watched both my parents unravell their lives and relationships, go to heights of success and kill it and have drama and then some. My mom likes interpersonal family and friend drama and keeps it smaller, but cannot have a relationship. My dad likes big schemes and money craziness, big travel and then a big crash and mess with lawyers and bankruptcy and phoenix from ashes acts. He finally found a nice source of Ns that he seems to be able to stay with and treats her reasonably well as he has gotten old, seemingly since she has no kids or life besides him and seems to have little "neediness" as a person, rather a self contained unit of a woman, which I guess works, so god bless him, plus she seems to have gotten him to turn over all finances to her, which hey is about all that she had for a need...where am I going it's all such a weird life I lead.
So in this long opus of a post is me, really lonely right now. I'm sad and angry at myself, like I cannot believe I did this thing with all this background. I fell like a tanker for this man. Emeshed right into some wacko land of my childhood into all the attention and flattery without a damn piece of self protection and insight from my lifetime. Didn't see a thing, just acted like a big robot falling into pattern of desperation to please, and I'm strong..really strong. I'm needy too, and compassionate. So to get out of this I had to make sure he was ok, or at least in some sort of structure that I could let go and feel some sort of things were somewhat in place to undo what had been done. I started to fight him, which really made me suffer a great deal, because I had to prove to myself that he really was what I thought he might be, which he was, without empathy, but just because he doesn't have that ability. I know he is in a good place, he finally has a psychiatrist, a good one and he goes. His learning curve is very small, miniscule.  He was able to sustain with the Dr. even when I filed for Divorce and continue, we had a brief re connection recently and it seems the Dr knows what is up, this heartens me, plus he is getting good support there, encouragement there..so he may stay-it's all he has. It's hard for me now. I feel dreadfully drained and grown up, I am grown up, I'm 40, finalncially poor again, I have a small daughter (not his) and depressed. I luckily have some friends, a good therapist, but god life is just so intense and weird and this whole thing has been so isolating. I have been through so much, one doesn't want to burden too many with it all, people just look at you like you have been just a freakshow if you really let them know the levels of exploiting that one went down to. There is all this shame.
I guess it is a bit too long..so enough.
Thanks,
Pavelle

gratitude28

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Re: Introduction and trying to stay on course with divorce
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2006, 07:58:41 PM »
Welcome and than you for sharing your story!!!
I sound like a broken record sometimes, but now is a great time to put your focus on your daughter who needs you! Move on and make her your priority.
Good came come from shame... As long as you remember what happened and decide to make a difference now. You sound like a smart and good person. I truly believe that in caring for your daughter and making her into a strong and healthy individual, you can make a difference that goes beyond what has happened so far.
Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

Certain Hope

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Re: Introduction and trying to stay on course with divorce
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2006, 08:15:46 PM »
Welcome to the board, Pavelle.

I don't think there's any shame deeper than that which N pours out onto his targets. I second Beth's suggestion to focus on building a life now for your child and yourself, looking forward and not back.

Hope

adrift

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Re: Introduction and trying to stay on course with divorce
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2006, 09:27:29 PM »
Hey Pavelle, and welcome.  I'm new here too.  From your post you obviously have a very good "knowledge" grasp of the situation which is good.  Don't be so hard on yourself.  You're human. You're trying to fix things and that is good.  You're moving forward.  Don't feel so responsible for your soon to be ex.  He's grown and has to learn to walk on his own two feet.

Adrift

gratitude28

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Re: Introduction and trying to stay on course with divorce
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2006, 09:36:33 PM »
His own Neanderthal feet, that is  :lol:
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

Hopalong

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Re: Introduction and trying to stay on course with divorce
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2006, 11:33:53 PM »
Quote
one doesn't want to burden too many with it all

Lay it down here, Pavelle, just lay it down.
Tell all you want to tell, take all the time you need, and you will find
arms lifting you up when you are low, hearts hearing your hurting,
and many people who will not judge you as roughly as you are
judging yourself.

I sometimes think of the board as kind school. I'm off to kind school.

And don't beat yourself up for having had the instinct to survive and
grow, which you've discovered, can include some detours into old
familiar stuff you've adapted to.

Now, and with support here...you can start to look at yourself with
more compassion, then start to LIKE looking at yourself with more
compassion, then start to LIVE looking at yourself with mre compassion.

I think that's the curriculum. Glad you're here, you have a load to lay down,
and so much wisdom of your own. It's eased my loneliness so much, I
am blown away by this healing space. These healing people.

WELCOME!
Hopalong
« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 11:43:53 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

moonlight52

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Re: Introduction and trying to stay on course with divorce
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2006, 03:50:01 AM »
Hi Pavelle, The kindness ,wisdom and real solutions from these most hurtful troubles of our souls are to be found right here .I am grateful to this website and all the members also the wit and humor is sublime.
Love and Light
MoonLight  :D WELCOME
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 04:39:05 AM by moonlight52 »

pavelle

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Re: Introduction and trying to stay on course with divorce
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2006, 11:18:36 AM »
Everyone has had some really great feedback. Hopalong pretty much summed up what I couldn't in what I have been seeking, or have sought to find, hoped to find here:

Quote
I sometimes think of the board as kind school. I'm off to kind school.

I really like this perspective and the below I'm working on trying to digest past the logical "well of course I shouldn't beat myself up" to the heartfelt, emotional acceptance piece, which is harder for me to authenticate, believe.

Quote
And don't beat yourself up for having had the instinct to survive and
grow, which you've discovered, can include some detours into old
familiar stuff you've adapted to.

Which is why I'm here, I suppose, to find the support in this movement towards acceptance, learn how to accelerate the process or bear the waiting or pain of not knowing ..if that makes sense- a shoulder to share to feel less isolated?

Quote
Now, and with support here...you can start to look at yourself with
more compassion, then start to LIKE looking at yourself with more
compassion, then start to LIVE looking at yourself with mre compassion.

I think that's the curriculum. Glad you're here, you have a load to lay down,
and so much wisdom of your own. It's eased my loneliness so much, I
am blown away by this healing space. These healing people.

WELCOME!
Hopalong

Thanks to all of you
Pavelle

portia guest

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Re: Introduction and trying to stay on course with divorce
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2006, 01:50:30 PM »
Welcome Pavelle, just read your intro.

shame, guilt, seeing 'freakshow' in others' eyes - yes, me too. Beating myself up for knowing better and not knowing better; self doubt and all that re-cycling (no, not the empty bottles in the boxes, recycling through shock, anger, denial....etc).

Welcome, you're in no way alone and self-acceptance is what I want too. Whatever is, it is and it always changes!

You've obviously got a big conscience, helping your ex to some situation you think he can function in (but he'll function anyway right? one way or another). Course it's sad and messy and horrible.

How are you looking after you these days? take care and bye for now, Portia

mum

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Re: Introduction and trying to stay on course with divorce
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2006, 02:06:18 PM »
Welcome, Pavelle, to a very big club.  I think your heartfelt )and not at all too long, considering) post resonates with most of us.
Of course you feel awful. And you might for some time. And when you are done with feeling awful...learned from it, or get sick of it, whatever happens, you will feel ok again.
My only advice on the "right now" you are in, is to try and stay in it...the "right now" part. You hurt. But most of the pain is about the past, I imagine, or about wanting something different (who wouldn't?). Staying still within the pain is so difficult, but that one bit of advice I got during my divorce really made sense. You can't change anything, you can't fix anything. Not now. Just wait it out. Acknowledging you feel like crap is one very giant step in the direction of what YOU want for your life. Give yourself some compassion for being fallible. Your only "fault" was loving someone who didn't really deserve your love. And that makes you an instant member of this club.
Sending strength and peace.
Mum

Brigid

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Re: Introduction and trying to stay on course with divorce
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2006, 02:42:46 PM »
Welcome Pavelle,
Your statement about feeling isolated resonated so strongly with me.  Once we figure out what we are dealing with--be it in a marriage, parents, siblings, children--it is hard to explain to others who have not lived with that kind of individual, nor have they studied all the hallmarks of the disorder.  They look at you like you're from another planet and/or they think you're nuts for having stayed in a relationship with that person for so long.

Fortunately, at this site, most of us do understand what you are saying and how you feel.  We have travelled different paths--some are mostly healed, many still have further to go on the journey, but we try to support each other and provide help and encouragement along the route.

My story is similar to yours, with an n father, enabling mother (both now dead), 2 n husbands and now divorced from n #2, with two young adult children from #2.  Therapy was my deliverence and savior and I am now among the mostly healed and starting on a new, much happier, journey. 

It will be HELL for awhile, but walk through it, not around it or try to avoid it, find your healing and you will come out on the other side with most of your pieces intact.  You have an opportunity now to have a better, happier life, but you won't see that until you get through all the crap.  Hang in there and I promise it does get better.

Blessings,

Brigid

pavelle

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Re: Introduction and trying to stay on course with divorce
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2006, 07:12:54 PM »
The difficulty I am running into with myself is this compulsive need to block out my *true* reality of him. Currently I am not communicating with him, it has been a week at this juncture. Within this process there have been a various lengths of silence, one lasting as long as 3 months. I disconnect any knowlege of him at all for these periods. The long silence was when he crashed, bottomed out and the mental abusive behaviour was put at bay. This took a great deal of strength on my part because I had to quell my hope with a sledgehammer to do this. Since this crash he is more receptive and seemingly weaker, which I guess is to be expected. It also makes it hard, since I am faced with this childlike man, broken and sad. My natural nurturing instincts run amok within me, I want to "help" like some crazywoman-which is really not helpful. I also have proven myself incapeable of being a good source of Ns-for anyone close to me. The invalidation of living with these N's drives me insane, it really kills my spirit and I start in with them, I inevitably get fighting for a self. I cannot avoid this truth. I did with my Family of origin too. Now I don't really bother and instead just live away and try to thwart conflict in place of more mature behavior on my part. I don't look to be validated by them and it works for me, if I slip up it just hurts with them and I take responsibility for my lack of "reality" of the capacity of my parents. I don't know how to do this with my husband. So I'll still try to push to be "seen", which is just pointless pain for me. Then I get some hairbrained notion (or big ego) that I can "handle this" that I can tolerate the slow learning curve of this man, usually masked as some sort of compulsive empathic gesture "oh god he sounds terrible" or "maybe I can take it" which is just nuttiness...I can't. All sorts of hope starts in me that he can change, which yeah maybe he can but man it's gonna be really really slow..like molassas stuck in mud and thats if he puts in the painful work, which if I'm around feeding him Ns he will inevitably get real lazy, that is just fact, it just isn't painful enough for him if I'm around handling it all for him, and man you gotta handle stuff when in his vortex, cause he sure doesn't and it's too painful to watch the wreckage around him. But I'll play shrink with him about around the clock, really it's a full time deal with me, it's a full time job to play shrink. Since it isn't my job really I'm counter productive, it's Ns masked as shrink time, I delude myself I'm speeding up the learning curve but in *reality* I'm slowing it down because I'm the one working on his stuff. This is counter intuitive. Then I get a clue and get disgusted with mainly myself when saying things like "what do you mean your mother was listening in your phone call with me?" I mean I'm talking to an adult last I checked? Really, this is just insanity..and then listening to his standard crazy N son about N mother relationship response of "Well I was being loud" as though this makes her behaviour normal. I usually just end up saying something "helpful" like "I don't want to know anymore about this delusional nutshow and if you cannot understand basic adult boundaries like mothers don't listen in on adult conversations and then throw hysterics about what they overhear for 2 days ...don't discuss this shit with me because you are pathetic" he of course will then become absolutely insanely abusive. Thing is, I know this. I mean how self-destructive am I? Sure I hang up on him and tell him I won't listen to this, but this unwell behaviour on my part, which I do secretly hoping he will "get a clue" which if I combat for about 5 hours he will..but man the cost of abuse to me is high and the learning curve slow and the lesson really only about this ONE issue, not the Big Picture. There are Millions of these pointless little moments. The real issue is me and my inability to accept that fact..no BIG PICTURE. That is *reality* but I sit here, on my computer and feel so sorry for myself, because I lost and it hurts. That damn brick wall again, that damn inexplicable brick wall that is another managment job when you thought it had some love in it for you. The work of it all and I have such a hard time giving in to it, addictive for me. I feel like the heartbreak is too much for me and I cannot fathom why my brain and heart are so broken up. I keep saying to myself "just be logical, just know it, accept accept, you know you cannot win here...it will do you in" I've never extricated myself from this unloveable self that I took from my Fof origin, and this snares me, that horrible "if only you could sublimate your self better, be more saintly, be more understanding, be absolutely needless...." god how horrid even typing that, scary to even write. I also know I'd fail, I failed that test all my life, and thank god really. But the guilt of that fighter in me, that cast off snare of being "bad" for that I still wear it. I still hold it I wish it would go away.

Hopalong

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Re: Introduction and trying to stay on course with divorce
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2006, 08:21:41 PM »
Hi Pavelle,

I believe you:

Quote
the cost of abuse to me is high and the learning curve slow and the lesson really only about this ONE issue, not the Big Picture. There are Millions of these pointless little moments.

These little moments = your life.

How much more of it do you want to spend in such pain?

You really can choose to start using your fighting spirit to fight your own way to your own happiness and your own new life. You reallly can.

You might need help with it, though. Have you given any thought to therapy?

Breeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaathe...

Hopalong

Hopalong
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

pennyplant

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Re: Introduction and trying to stay on course with divorce
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2006, 08:27:33 PM »
Welcome, Pavelle.

It's not logical you know.  It is a matter of the heart.  And it's all mixed up with the stuff from childhood.  It's going to take time and grieving and healing.  Grief is a really strange thing.  It is not a linear process.  And it effects parts of you that you might not have even known existed.  It effects your feelings, your thoughts, your body.  Don't try to go too fast with it.  Let yourself think things and feel things and take care of your physical needs.

Sometimes it's going to be overwhelming.  I hope that posting here helps with some of it.

Pennyplant
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

mum

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Re: Introduction and trying to stay on course with divorce
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2006, 11:39:55 PM »
You know, Pavelle, you don't SOUND like a mess at all. You sound extremely coherent, but  in a tough spot right now.
It's not forever, you are not doomed. That you are even thinking this deeply about change is the ultimate example of that change happening. Everything begins with intention. You will not "fail", as there is no failure...just as there is no "triumph".

You sound like maybe you feel a bit like I did a few years back (although there is no way I could write as wonderfully as you to describe it!!). I read what you wrote on the sarcasm thread, and it made me cry. Because I was there. I remember thinking, no saying, to my (brief marriage) second husband (another N, somewhat more charming than the first) that I wanted to be a better person. I didn't want to talk about bad things, and how the world is going to hell, and who is screwed up and how awful things are so lets go get a drink and act like we are so superior, being the intellectual artists and all....
I wanted MORE, BETTER, HAPPIER, KINDER, SOFTER. Thing was, though, I had to go through a hell of a lot of really dark things to find the path....
But I can tell you, I would not go back one step. You are in the middle of it. Keep your head down, keep one foot in front of the other....just keep walking, even if you don't know what you are walking toward...
I realize now, that what I wanted was to find and fulfill my purpose in this life. That's why I was so driven and why it's so hard sometimes, but the joy is like none other. When people post here, who are having similar feelings to the ones I had, I remember how different I have become...and how very much more I like myself.
If I could recommend a few things that helped me through that time, it would be "The Power of Now" by Tolle, and almost any of Pema Chodron's writings. May you find some solace tonight, Pavelle.