Double standards

[Certain Hope]

Sela, I do think it's likely that you and I have gone as far as possible in this particular discussion. For myself, I'm about at my limit of taking in any new thoughts or words at the moment     One thing, though... since the meaning of words has come up here... I attach alot of import to the meaning of words, so to me there is a huge difference between imply and insinuate. Now that I know you don't do that, I won't take it too seriously, although I may on occasion point out the actual definitions (hopeless dictionary addict here).  Anyhow, re: the meaning of words....   to me, in order for words to be "mean" they have to be delivered with intent to harm. The words in and of themselves are not "mean". They may be unpleasant, undesireable, unflattering, but not mean... unless used as a weapon. It's all about the intent, I think. Case in point:  imply vs insinuate.  I'd offer you a Hershey bar if you were here. With almonds. Break time from this topic!!  Thanks.

Hope

[Sela]

Thanks for the chocolate Hope.  I love it!! 
I'd send over a beer, at this point, as I'd much rather toast than tossle. 
(oooo    beer and chocolate?  maybe not.  maybe an coffee with Bailey's or something??)

Yep.  Words can have a number of meanings and even mean different stuff to different people.  Easy to misinterpret too eh?  I appreciate that you are a dictionary addict.  I'm almost the opposite.  I feel like my vocabulary is very limited and I have look words up sometimes.  I pick the wrong ones sometimes.  I'm just not the greatest at communicating.  Trying to improve on that too.

Intent matters to me big time too, Hope.  I agree with you there.  It's important stuff.

Think about, maybe, if you feel like it, different possibilities of Portia's intent....yesterday??  Intent can also be misinterpreted can't it?

Have a nice break. 

Sela

[Certain Hope]

ooo...  No beer for me, thanks... on the wagon for 2 years now, thank God. But chocolate is so invigorating, here I am again.

Just to point out... I never did judge Portia's intent, only told my perception of her actions. In fact, at some point throughout all of the many words exchanged here, I believe that I specifically said, it was not my place to judge anyone's intent or motivation.
I can only speak of my own responses, with the full awareness that they're colored by a variety of factors, including past events and current mood swings. Which is why.... I didn't follow through with any responses yesterday. Enjoy your brew   

Hope 

on edit:  eeek... Sela, I came back because I just realized that my  "oooo"  and  closing "enjoy your beer" might come across sounding like an indictment against drinking. Not at all! I'm not against drinking for anyone but me. 'Twas a sincere, "Enjoy!"  Hope

[Sela]

Congratulations on 2 years of sobriety!!  Good for you Hope!!
Nope.  No beer in the house.   I'm not on a wagon though.  I just like riding in them.     (I live in the country).

I never did judge Portia's intent, only told my perception of her actions.

Really?

I sense that conflict is a passion and a thrill.

So this is not how you see her intention for indulging in conflict?  To get a thrill?  To satisfy a passion?

Hmmmm.  I must be misunderstanding then.  Sorry Hope.

I believe that I specifically said, it was not my place to judge anyone's intent or motivation

I believe you.  (not going back to look...just taking your word for it).  However, that is not how your statement came across to me (about Portia having a passion and getting thrills from conflict).  I see that as a statement about part of the intent for getting involved in conflicts and I just don't think that's true.

As for yesterday, I'm just suggesting you reassess but ofcourse, that's up to you to decide.

(Sorry for all this talking about you P.  That slipped my brain entirely.    How the heck do I know what your intent is/was or what give you a thrill or what your passions are??  I'm just going by my personal view of you.  Correct me, if I'm wrong please.)

Ok.  Gotta go do stuff.  I'm glad you decided not to be silent too Hope.  Even if I have complaints about the words.  Bottom line.  This isn't anything really to do with me and I have no place yapping about it.  Maybe Portia wasn't even offended by what you wrote?  How do I know?   I felt offended for her, I guess.  Silly eh? 

Sela

[Sela]

on edit:  eeek... Sela, I came back because I just realized that my  "oooo"  and  closing "enjoy your beer" might come across sounding like an indictment against drinking. Not at all! I'm not against drinking for anyone but me. 'Twas a sincere, "Enjoy!"  Hope

Oooo Hope.  As could my "no beer in the house".   Nobody here drinks it, is all.  I love red wine though.  And Sangria.  No worries.

Enjoy you're afternoon/eve too. 

Sela

[Brigid]

Could you please send the bartender over here?  I really need a drink to stop my head from spinning.

Brigid

[Certain Hope]

Sela, Folding laundry here and little tidbits keep coming to mind. This is none of my business, but I'll ask anyway and you can certainly decline to respond, of course. Are you the one who mentioned the convo on the Victims of Narc thread to P. yesterday? See, this is the way my mind works. I just remembered that when P entered the convo there, she said that she hadn't been reviewing the board but became aware of the discussion when someone told her privately.

Hope

[Certain Hope]

Pouring you a cup of tea, Brigid    I consider this quite a test of my own sobriety, so I can relate!

Hope

[Sela]

Yep.  That was me.  I told her something about myself in regard to that thread.  Something in my head.
I guess she looked in there after that.

Sela

[Sela]

I think she may have meant, by mentioning that someone had pointed the thread out to her, that she wasn't reading and sitting in the background, lurking...so to speak.  I'm not sure.

Sela

[Certain Hope]

Thanks, Sela. I'd noticed that you seemed particularly intense in your objections to my impression of P as barging in on threads for the sake of participating in/engendering conflict. It occurred to me that this might be due to some extra sense of responsibility on your part for her having spoken there in the first place. Nothing wrong with that at all, it just explains some of your vehemence here. And as I said when I first began this thread hourrrsssss agooooo.... I know that I have a bad habit of assuming/presuming. I had this impression long before yesterday, but I realize that it was a vague impression only, based on very limited knowledge of the facts. I do tend to rush to hasty judgments. Maybe P and I will have an opportunity to discuss this aspect of it further at some point. In the meanwhile, I'm learning as I go here, both about myself and others. Already I can see the benefits of this sort of discussion, involved as it can get, as opposed to slamming the door on communication and settling for my own perception of things, unwilling to allow that to be changed. Thanks again 

Hope

[Sela]

Hi Hope,

vehemence

That's a pretty heavy duty word isn't it? 

Nope.  Never dawned on me until you mentioned it now, that IIIIIIII am responsible for P's involvement here. 

You're right!  If I hadn't mentioned something that was in my head to P, she would not have looked in over on the Vict of N thread, nor would she have felt obligated to explain why she hadn't commented before then
(or maybe she just meant she too cares but wasn't following the thread...whatever)
And...she wouldn't be involved, probably, with this "discussion" either (sorry again for talking "about" you P.  I don't know how else to put it.  I know it bugs you).

yep. all my fault.  Thanks for pointing that out.  I just sent an appology by pm.

However, my response to you on thissssss thread has been entirely based on my opinion that you chose to use abusive words, when it was neither necessary, nor likely helpful to anyone and I don't think I was acting out of any sense of feeling responsible for anyone in particular, other than, yes, P is my friend, so I'm sure that has an influence,  but I bet...I just bet....I might have piped up...had you used those words toward another member....but I can't be sure because I'm not a person person gifted with profound insight.

I'm not concerned about what your impression of anyone is.  I do, however, not like you labelling people as having intentions that they may not have and your choice of abusive words.  That is where my passion lies.  I am being clear about that.  I don't always post about it when I see it.  Sometimes I do.  Today I am.  Tomorrow might be different.

A I'm learning as I go here, both about myself and others. Already I can see the benefits of this sort of discussion, involved as it can get, as opposed to slamming the door on communication and settling for my own perception of things, unwilling to allow that to be changed. Thanks again .

Same here.

  Sela

[Certain Hope]

Sela,

    vehemence, per Webster:  Characterized by forcefulness of expression or intensity of emotion or conviction; fervid: a vehement denial. See Synonyms at intense.
Marked by or full of vigor or energy; strong: a vehement storm.

It's just another matter of perception, but yes, I'd say the word fits.

I did not say that you are responsible for P's involvement anywhere or in anything. I said that it had occurred to me that you might feel some sense of responsibility. I did not place any blame on you. And now I'm getting the impression that you feel tricked somehow. Not by me. But as you said, you're not concerned about my impressions of anyone.

Sela, you have made it abundantly clear that you believe I've labeled P. and that you feel I've used abusive words. I couldn't disagree more and I'm sorry that you feel that way, but I'm glad we've had a chance to attempt some direct communication 

Hope

[Sela]

This "impression" of yours caught my attention:

someone who obviously uses anger as an excuse to not care about anyone but herself

You belittle a person's feelings
You decide their motivation/intention for feeling (as if people feel stuff purposely or use their feelings for a purpose and you......because you're so special and are able to see inside people's brains......can determine this easily, it's so obvious eh?, and gee, how silly of the rest of us not to see it ?)  Obviously!!
You proclaim what's in a person's heart like you have special powers to know.
And you label them, insult, all in the name of "hard love"?

My concern is that you are bullying with words.
Please stop.

Here's a couple definitions for ya:

depreciate:  1 : to lower in estimation or esteem
2 a : to lower the price or estimated value of

You can try but I doubt you'll be able to accomplish that with Portia.
You are, however, doing a good job of making yourself look pretty mean, cold..how about cruel?

condescension:  1 : voluntary descent from one's rank or dignity in relations with an inferior
2 : patronizing attitude or behavior

Keep trying.  Good luck.  That's a high spot to climb down from.

Your last post dismissed me.  Salute!! 

Sela

[Certain Hope]

Sela,

   I didn't dismiss you. I rejected your view of this situation, just as I now reject your assessment of me.

   I have been revealing myself on this board for some time, and I don't believe it's accurate or reasonable to reduce me to the sum total of this current conflict.

   I never said that I was doing anything " in the name of 'hard love' ". Don't put words into my mouth, Sela.

    I've said quite openly that I have trouble with conflict and that my goal is to learn how to stop being overcome by fear of this sort of verbal exchange. I've also said quite openly that I'm aware of my own inclination to assume/presume.  I don't want to overcome just enough of my fear of conflict that I'm left with resorting to sniping, sarcasm, subtle insinuations,  behind-the-scenes gossip, or any other forms of passive aggressive behavior. My goal is complete resolution so that I can be assertive and not aggressive. I realize that I have not yet met that goal, Sela, but I am trying.

    I've pursued this exchange with you here on this thread in an effort to learn how to communicate more effectively instead of shutting down and closing off myself. I now believe that it was a mistake for me to continue discussions with you. I believe that I should have stopped that early on and specifically invited Portia to have a direct exchange, at her discretion. I wasn't at the point of even being able to consider that initially. This is all a new learning process for me and it's not a comfortable position to be in... opening myself up to all sorts of misunderstandings.  But Sela, I didn't initiate this post in order to judge, rant, or patronize. I'm getting the feeling that's what you want to do to me, and at me. That's not a judgment of you, a pronouncement upon you, or exhibition of any special powers I think I have to see inside peoples' brains, Sela. It's my feeling. Because of that feeling, and because you don't seem to hear me, but rather I find you putting words into my mouth, it looks like we've reached the end of our ability to communicate.

Portia, I don't know what you think. I don't know whether you see what I've said here as being "mean". I'd like to know. If you are interested in trying to come to some further understanding of what we might both be able to learn from this, I'd like to engage in that. I'm not trying to tell you that you need to learn anything, but I know that I do! I won't be able to respond further till this evening though. Will be away from the computer for the next 8 hours or so. Thanks.

Hope