Regarding the board.....

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hi all

While reading lately I was thinking about all the conflict which goes on here, along with some N calling some of the time.... 

And I was thinking about why this happens, how do I feel when this happens... and when I thought about what Storm said about posts causing conflict for the weekend, I was wondering to myself whether to post this today, or whether to post it at all so I think I'll just hit the post button and not think about it too much.

Anyway I did a search to see if I could find something and I came across this:-

"Conflict is a natural part of any growing and dynamic relationship. "Conflict Happens" between parents and children, spouses, friends, church members, civic group members, members of work groups, and any group where two or more are gathered. Conflict can produce creativity and nurture growing relationships. How one perceives and deals with conflict determines the outcome. Often individuals who want to have growing and dynamic relationships are caught in a conflict style that produces negative results."

This is the first time I thought about conflict as normal, but I guess it depends on the amount of conflict also, and I do think we probably have more than our fair share here.  Why is that?

And then I started thinking about the levels of conflict...  the government, countries fighting, all conflict.  Is this normal?  Why should we accept this as normal?

I'm going away to ponder some more....

H&H xx

[Portia]

H&H

I stumbled here:

“Often individuals who want to have growing and dynamic relationships are caught in a conflict style that produces negative results."

I stumbled on ‘negative results’ because that seems such a value judgement – who decides what is a negative result? (Yes, war and death seem pretty negative! But in everyday non-war life, a seemingly negative result – say resolving never to speak to your mother again – that may not have a long-term negative result. It depends. Who decides when the ‘result’ has been reached? etc.)

This is the first time I thought about conflict as normal, but I guess it depends on the amount of conflict also, and I do think we probably have more than our fair share here.  Why is that?

Do we more than our fair share? I don’t know, I don’t have any other place to compare it to. It depends what you judge to be ‘conflict’ too! We all see things through our own prism of experience.

And then I started thinking about the levels of conflict...  the government, countries fighting, all conflict.  Is this normal?  Why should we accept this as normal?

I think conflict – competition for resources, for power – is normal in as much as it’s biological. We are fundamentally competitive creatures, who have to work together in small groups to survive (and I will fight ‘your group’ to ensure the survival of ‘my group’). I think we can get past this, we can see the planet as our group, the whole species as our family, but not many do it….and so many fight over real estate. It’s primitive and complicated I think. Great book “Friends and enemies: our need to love and hate” Dorothy Rowe, excerpt:

“if human beings crave good relationships, they also need bad ones. In imagining we have enemies we at least have the comfort of knowing that someone, somewhere, is thinking of us. People and nations seek out both allies and hate-figures, whether they are children at school or the Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo. It is often easy to hate, even easier to be hated, and we rarely ask why people choose to be enemies rather than friends - whether we can live without enemies or why friendship is so difficult to achieve.”

http://www.dorothyrowe.com.au/setup.htm

[Certain Hope]

Hi, H & H,

  Good post, weekend or not   

   Until this place, I've only ever seen Christian message boards, mainly as an observer, and there's plenty of conflict there, too... just different, not as obvious... more of an undercurrent. Personally, I prefer to have it out in the open (another reason I don't do the "pm" thing). As uncomfortable and unsettling as it can be, at least it's more straightforward that way. I am much more uncomfortable in settings where you can just "feel" the turmoil brewing under the surface, but it only pops out in the form of innuendo or subtle sniping done with a smile. Yuck.

   It's possible that there's more conflict in general here, I think... simply by virtue of the fact that we have a bunch of folks who've felt their voices silenced in the past and now nobody is ever gonna hush them up again. In light of the reasons that most of us are here in the first place, that seems natural to me. Dealing with conflict is one of those life's lessons I never learned at the appropriate time, due to lack of example, so even though it still makes me squirm, I appreciate the opportunity to learn and exercise some new skills.

   I have a hunch that conflict can become an addictive pattern, though.  Sure wouldn't want to get stuck in one gear and find myself unable to either introduce new thoughts or respond to existing ones without being in either defensive or offensive mode.

   When you think of it, when does a conflict really begin?  Is it when we disagree in mind/heart with another or only once that disagreement is expressed? Hmm... I'll be pondering, as well.   Thanks, H & H

Hope

[Brigid]

H & H et al,
I'm probably going to get jumped on for what I'm about to say, but I also think some of the conflict issues here (and in many circles) that are having some difficulty being resolved, has to do with most of us being women. 

For any of you who have had both sons and daughters (or brothers and sisters, for that matter), we know that when boys have a disagreement with each other, they deal with it right there and then, and then it's over.  They don't harbor grudges or stop talking to each other or constantly remind one another of the bad thing they said yesterday, last week or last year.  If you've had an adolescent or teenage daughter, you know how mean they can be to each other and a disagreement can carry on for some time, or forever.

It's the same in marriages.  Men fight in the moment and then (in most cases), get over it and move on.  We girls, however, never forget those transgressions, slights, forgotten birthdays, etc., and are quick to bring those things up during a fight, even if they happened 15 years ago.  I think there is a book titled "Why Do Men Never Remember, and Women Never Forget?"  I know I am making some generalizations here, but for the most part I think we have all been guilty of this behavior at one time or another.

Now when it comes to conflict at a national level, then I think it has more to do with mostly men being in charge and their natural tendency to be competitive with one another.  I do believe that if mostly women were the leaders of countries, there would be less conflict that becomes war as we tend to be more compassionate and protective of putting our loved ones, hearth and home at risk.

As to whether we have a higher than normal amount of conflict here than in other groups, I don't know.  This is the only on-line site I have ever participated in and have nothing to compare it to.  I think it is easier to resolve conflict in the real world because the give and take takes place, for the most part, all at once.  In the cyber world there is the time lapse, writing styles, and having to absorb all that is said at once, rather than discussing points as they come up.  Not sure if that made sense, but I know that on more than one occasion, I've seen the reader pick up on a particular point they found offensive, but missed the five points after that which would perhaps have tempered their offense.

I'm certainly not pointing any fingers here, just making a general observation.  As Penelope said on another thread, I love being around men and discussing things with them to try to understand where they're coming from and how they think. 

Brigid

[Sela]

Hiya H&H:

It's always a good thing to ponder, I think, no matter what day it is.  Pondering helps us grow eh?
So ponder away, H&H and thanks for sharing.

I wonder what life would be like without conflict?  If everyone thought the same things and behaved in acceptable ways toward eachother, I guess that would be some world eh?  Heavenly I think!

How one perceives and deals with conflict determines the outcome.

That makes a lot of sense to me.  I see it as a sort of ....crying out of voices.  It's a point where those voices are hard to contain and so they break free and cry out colliding with eachother.  Kind of like fire works but not usually all that pretty.

Why do some people get involved in more conflict than others?  Possibly they just believe confronting people/ideas might cause beneficial change?  I think I speak out in hopes of positive change and I think every single person here, who has been involved in recent conflicts, has probably had that intention too.

Maybe some people enjoy conflict? (and I'm not suggesting anyone here ....just in the world in general).  I don't enjoy it.  I find it very draining and scary (draining because of the energy it uses up and scary because it usually means there is a risk of things getting worse, not better...which is not what I want).  Still, it's necessary for voices to cry out, I think.  Sometimes I wonder exactly who/what those voices are really crying out at??

It's the voices that cried out in the past that have made big changes in the world....crying out against everything from slavery to smoking in public.  Without those voices our world would be quite different.  Some really good changes have come about as a result.  Here, on this board, the changes might not be as earth shattering but still, important, imo.

When conflict happens, whether between a couple of people or between large groups, and it ends in more silence, a sort of psychological fissure forms, I think, that stays open and painful.   There is more chance of healing when communication continues, imo.   It seems to be something that happens, sometimes, here on this board.  Maybe that's something that has happened.....something witnessed/learned......from past experiences?   That makes me wonder about all those open wounds and how they might still be hurting, or are they scarred over?

That's what happened in my FOO.  Conflicts were hardly ever resolved.  There was just a big blow out and then........silence.......until the next big blow.  Maybe that's why I hope so much for that not to happen here?  I think there is always a chance for resolution but all parties must have the desire for it.    It can happen and has happened here before.

Why should we accept this as normal?

Can we change nature?  We don't all have the same thoughts and ideas and we are not perfect.  Therefore, we are incapable of behaving in acceptable ways toward eachother, alllllllllll of the time and sometimes, our thoughts and ideas will clash.  There will always be conflict here and in the world.  I don't think this is something we can change in general.  Maybe we can?  I just don't know how?  Isn't it a human condition that we all are different and doesn't that make it mathematically impossible for complete harmony?

Still, I think there is hope for less conflict and more resolution of conflict, if we are willing to try to understand our differences and interested in cooperating.  But it won't happen if all effort ends.

Sela

PS on edit:  Thinking some more.  When is it clear that all effort ends?  That's not easy to spell out. 
      In the world sometimes war happens but then talks start up again and there are cease fires, and negotiation can interupt the war that seemed unendable, and sometimes....peace agreements are made and so on.
     
Here, on this board, it's no different.  The scale is just smaller (in that there are not the same numbers invovled as there are in huge world wars).  Even when people leave the board, sometimes they come back and talk later and things can work out.  And people can and do choose to make another effort, so that is a good thing.

[WRITE]

I post on a Christian local board sometimes and it's amazing how often someone pipes up 'this topic is done' when they mean, 'I'm done with this topic'!

 

[Certain Hope]

Oh, Write, I know... I see that, too... and I think it's most often the response of a man, born of frustration. My husband used to do alot in a Christian Debate chat and some of those convos wound up in nothing more than a "Yo Mama!" kinda free-for-all. Ugh!

I have to agree with Brigid in that we are predominately a female group and that sets a whole different tone of discussion, I think.
But I also think (if we can agree on a couple of generalizations here... i.e., women are more verbal and also more in tune with the emotional impact of their words...) the fact that we are mainly women relates just as much to how conflicts arise in the first place as to how they get resolved.

My husband has shared with me some stories of how his crew at work relates and I'm always amazed. Seems that most conflicts within this group of about 8 guys flares up due to a constant spirit of competition amongst them. Often, resolution comes in the form of these characters pulling practical jokes on each other. OK, so maybe it doesn't actually get resolved... maybe it just morphs into a different sort of competition     But of all the personalities involved in their little group, there's only one who can't seem to join into what most folks would consider "healthy fun". He's a bitter soul indeed and whereas the others other pulling innocent pranks like tying each others' work shirts in knots, this fellow has been known to turn off the switches on an important piece of equipment and create a real mess. He doesn't seem to comprehend the difference between horseplay and sabotage. Unfortunately, he's quite clever and his antics have yet to be proven, but some day.... he'll push it too far.

Good thread!

Hope

[Brigid]

Hope,

the fact that we are mainly women relates just as much to how conflicts arise in the first place as to how they get resolved.

I would absolutely agree.  I think our level of sensitivity, added to the whole damage and healing aspect of this site can lead us to being more easily offended or hurt by comments which may have been made very innocently (or not).  We may also read something into a particular point which was never intended, but it takes 2 or 3 additional exchanges before it is made clearer. 

I personally find those exchanges exhausting as I am someone who tends not to look at the finer points and focuses on the big picture.  I am that way about everything, and have always been the one to come up with the idea, but not want to fine tune the details to put it into play.  That is better left to those who appreciate the detail work.  I would have made a lousy accountant or engineer.

Brigid

[Certain Hope]

Brigid, exactly. The big picture... that's what I want to retrain my thinking to grasp and remain in touch with.

Some ramblings.....
When I think of the expression ~ "can't see the forest for the trees", I carry that a step further to another image.
Recovering from the impact of relationship with narcissists along with a lifelong tendancy to be a people-pleaser (regardless of the cost to self or truth/reality) reminds me of being stuck up in a treestand, like the hunters use. No ladder, no rope, fear of heights...

When presented with a larger fear (i.e., a predator lodged within the branches of that very tree) a person might jump and run, even escape.... and as long as the predator remains stuck in the tree, there's some semblance of security.  But those old fears remain, never thoroughly overcome to the point that they're replaced by good, healthy, functioning traits which would keep ya outta that ole tree in the first place. In other words, immediate danger causes an instinctual response, but old patterns remain and I think that for awhile, although a person is back on solid ground, all he can see is that one tree. He may think that the way to overcome his fear is by climbing that tree, doing battle with the predator who lives there, and climbing down victorious.
I want to be able to walk around that tree and continue to enjoy the beauty of the entire forest.

Hope

[Portia]

Brigid,

Now when it comes to conflict at a national level, then I think it has more to do with mostly men being in charge and their natural tendency to be competitive with one another.  I do believe that if mostly women were the leaders of countries, there would be less conflict that becomes war as we tend to be more compassionate and protective of putting our loved ones, hearth and home at risk.

I’ve been thinking about the ‘people in charge’ and why we are where we are in the world and I now think, that one the main reasons we have so much conflict, competition is not down to the fact that most leaders are men, I think it’s much more to do with the type of person who gets into power.

By the very nature of the ‘big jobs’, they attract people who are disordered in some way, who are emotionally warped. Who else would want to run a country, a big corporation? What drives these people to ‘achieve’? (Big egos, tiny self-worth.)

I think both men and women can be like this; it’s just that men have more opportunity and they don’t bear children, so more of them get to the ‘top’. I do think that the crazy people run the world, unfortunately.

[Sela]

Hi P:

By the very nature of the ‘big jobs’, they attract people who are disordered in some way, who are emotionally warped. Who else would want to run a country, a big corporation? What drives these people to ‘achieve’? (Big egos, tiny self-worth.)

Is it possible that some who strive to get into positions of power have a passion for positive change?

The reason I ask is because I've known some really fantastic teachers, bosses, doctors, nurses, good priests and ministers, some higher ups in the police force, etc... who've tried very hard to make a difference and have succeeded in getting into some of those positions, by what seems to me a great desire to improve our world.  Those people aren't running the world but they are certainly in charge of some importantl aspects of it.

Isn't it possible that a very determined person might work their way to the top position (of running a big corp or country) simply because they want to help?  (I think some have........but they ended up assassinated..... ).
And maybe some start out that way and end up corrupted?  Not all though maybe?

I don't know.  Maybe I'm being too hopeful again.

Sela

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hiya all

Wow!  There's so many good points here that I apologise already because I'm sure I'm not going to be able to cover them all.... who'd have thought my initial ponderings could have provided such a good response... thank you!

Often individuals who want to have growing and dynamic relationships are caught in a conflict style that produces negative results."

I stumbled on ‘negative results’ because that seems such a value judgement – who decides what is a negative result? (Yes, war and death seem pretty negative! But in everyday non-war life, a seemingly negative result – say resolving never to speak to your mother again – that may not have a long-term negative result. It depends. Who decides when the ‘result’ has been reached? etc.)

This is interesting Portia... I guess it only what we each perceive as negative or positive.  One person could class conflict as negative in that they didn't reach the resolve they were hoping for, however the other side of the coin, a person in the same conflict could actually be pleased with the resolution.

"This is the first time I thought about conflict as normal, but I guess it depends on the amount of conflict also, and I do think we probably have more than our fair share here.  Why is that?

Do we more than our fair share? I don’t know, I don’t have any other place to compare it to. It depends what you judge to be ‘conflict’ too! We all see things through our own prism of experience."

Apart from this I don't post anywhere else, so I guess I don't have anything to compare it to either.... I was thinking more about my 3D life.  It is rare for me to have conflict or fights.  Not saying I'm a doormat either, but personally for me, I do find there is a fair amount of conflict here.

"It is often easy to hate, even easier to be hated, and we rarely ask why people choose to be enemies rather than friends - whether we can live without enemies or why friendship is so difficult to achieve.”"

This baffles me Portia.... why would choose to be enemies rather than friends?  My friends are important to me, even though it can be hard to find the time, because they are important I make sure I do.

"I have a hunch that conflict can become an addictive pattern, though.  Sure wouldn't want to get stuck in one gear and find myself unable to either introduce new thoughts or respond to existing ones without being in either defensive or offensive mode.

   When you think of it, when does a conflict really begin?  Is it when we disagree in mind/heart with another or only once that disagreement is expressed? "

This is really interesting Hope... do you think people can become addicted to conflict?  Maybe people who have a lot of choas on their lives, go from one drama queen moment to the next.  I think conflict begins when the disagreement is expressed, but now I've pondered a while I do think some conflict is beneficial.  It's when it gets out of hand and no one is listening to each other that it's negative.  A reasonable discussion, is that still conflict?

Brigid... that is a great point to make and it's true.  We do talk about it more, whereas a bloke would jest and then probably head to the pub to resolve it by buying a beer for each other.  Neither sexes necessarily have a better way, but it's good to look at the differences.


That's what happened in my FOO.  Conflicts were hardly ever resolved.  There was just a big blow out and then........silence.......until the next big blow.  Maybe that's why I hope so much for that not to happen here?  I think there is always a chance for resolution but all parties must have the desire for it.    It can happen and has happened here before.

I'm sorry about this (((((Sela))))  It's difficult and I can relate to how it feels because of what I went through with my bio dad. 

"Can we change nature?  We don't all have the same thoughts and ideas and we are not perfect.  Therefore, we are incapable of behaving in acceptable ways toward eachother, alllllllllll of the time and sometimes, our thoughts and ideas will clash.  There will always be conflict here and in the world.  I don't think this is something we can change in general.  Maybe we can?  I just don't know how?  Isn't it a human condition that we all are different and doesn't that make it mathematically impossible for complete harmony?"

I agree with you, but I truly feel that by having acceptance for each other can change conflict.  If something isn't answered how we would like it to be, is it that big a deal?  If someone has different views, I like to think that I can live and let live.  It's empowering that there are so many people here with their various views and beliefs, each one as entitled and valid as the next.  And I like to hear them, I like the way it can help me to think about things.

That's another very interesting point Write.... If we did say what we mean, wouldn't it be easier.  So easy to get mixed up, or read something into a post that isn't there.

Portia/Sela... I would like to think that some people out there do get high powered jobs to change things. 

Thanks all

H&H xx

[Sela]

Hi again H&H:

I agree with you, but I truly feel that by having acceptance for each other can change conflict.  If something isn't answered how we would like it to be, is it that big a deal?  If someone has different views, I like to think that I can live and let live.  It's empowering that there are so many people here with their various views and beliefs, each one as entitled and valid as the next.  And I like to hear them, I like the way it can help me to think about things.

I mostly agree.   There are certain things that trigger me.  My parents did a lot of name calling and verbal hitting under the belt,  so to speak (it was often a psychologically violent environment......extremely abusive).  I saw my father as the powerful one (he was the loudest, could say the meanest things, became enraged, was an agitator, used threats, threw whatever misdemeanors he could find of hers from the past, in her face, over and over, etc) and my mother as the weaker one (she enabled him by arguing back, saying awful things back to him, etc though she could never quite achieve the height of his cruelty... and often ended up crying and hurt, then later, just plain angry).  I was helpless to stop it but I found ways to cope.

Now, when I read certain words here......that remind me of that same kind of "voicing".....I have the urge to intervene (just like I wanted to when I was a kid but felt helpless.....except now....I don't feel helpless.  I have a voice).

I posted on the "anything" thread that I didn't come here to watch people hurting eachother.  That's the absolute truth.  I've had enough of that growing up.

I don't accept it and when it looks to me like that's what's happening here, because I perceive the words to be hurtful or abusive, I speak up, if I have enough courage that day.  That doesn't mean I'm seeing everything clearly or that I don't misinterpret, or over react, or that I behave perfectly either.  I guess I'm just trying to share how I've linked it up in my head to the past and why I think I sometimes jump in here.  It's important to me to speak out about it....not to ignor it.....not to let it go unchallenged.  It feels like closing my eyes to abuse to do that.  That allows it to continue.

I have no problem sharing views or agreeing to differing views or anything that even remotely allows people their views....to live and let live, as you said.   I just don't like name calling and mean words as a method of expressing our views.  I believe we can all learn to express ourselves without repeating those kinds of lessons (whatever lessons we've learned from our past experiences that are inappropriate or unproductive).  We don't have to hit below the belt to get our points across (and when that does happen here sometimes), imo.  That doesn't mean it won't happen or that we can expect perfection.  It means I think it's right to say something when it happens.

Thankyou for the opportunity to speak about this H&H.   I appreciate it.  I'm trying to learn too and understand too.
Not there yet.  I could choose better words myself sometimes.

Sela

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hi again Sela

Thanks for your post and I can relate to alot of it, the name calling etc, except it was my Mum who was the powerful one.

I don't believe that any of us come here to watch people hurting each other either.

I admire that you say you don't accept it, and that you can speak out for what you see.

The way I look at things is different... I think the easiest way to explain it for me, is that about 6 years ago now I was with an alcoholic for a boyfriend.  It hard to believe the things I went through now, but one thing that helped me to move on, to be where I am today was to identify that his case was the extreme, and not everyone would be the same as him.  It was hard to define at the time, but it did help me to separate... does that make any sense?

And I am aware that some of it is purely because I don't like to get involved.... it's the whole it's someone else's business, what right have I got to stick my big nose in.  Plus I sometimes think an extra voice can just add to the conflict.

There you go... my 2 cents for what it's worth!    I do think that neither way is wrong, just kinda showing different ways of dealing with conflict.

I hope you have a good evening.

Take care

H&H xx

[Sela]

Another Hi H&H:

So sorry you had to grow up under such conditions.     Not nice or fun.  ((((((((H&H))))))))

I'm glad you were able to find clarity and to separate from your alcoholic bf.  Another tough experience for you, I bet.   So glad you were able to get away before marriage or children became part your relationship.  I bet you're glad about that too?

I know that feeling of not wanting to get involved in other's affairs and feeling out of place.  This is the perfect venue for that too.

Plus I sometimes think an extra voice can just add to the conflict.

Good point.  Sometimes the opposite happens also.  It's always risky.

Hope you will also have a lovely evening (and weekend).

Thanks again for this thread H&H.

  Sela