What's Happened to the Community?

[penelope]

hi mud,

I don't think that I'm enjoying this conflict...  But I recognize that it's where I'm at right now.  It's the level of my ability now, I can't be at any other level.

Maybe when I'm older I will get around conflict, steer clear of it, more effectively.

Thanks for your thoughts.  I will continue to stay clear of you as you've asked me to in the past.  no worries

pb

[penelope]

RM - Goodness in communication

I like that 

[reallyME]

Penelope,

Yes, GOODNESS IN COMMUNICATION.  May is always be so between us and be established anew with others.

Please know that if I happen to quote a Bible verse or say something quite abruptly, that it is not directed at any one person.  It is just belief that I stand by and for.

Blessya'll,

Laura

[WRITE]

I can't keep up with all the posting this week but I would say that a support group is totally different from an unmoderated open-access message board.

In a support group person(s) facilitate so that each person gets a group space and no space becomes unhealthy
( by the definitions and purposes of the particular group ) In a support group someone whose presence wasn't benefitting the whole group over time would likely be asked to leave or counselled separately before they attended again.

I have ( finally)  learned to moderate myself- I don't need to be in on everything. We can't connect to everyone personally. And internet useage can become almost an addiction when I'm on the computer all the time for work anyway- it's taken me ages to learn to use it less; it's a real 'comfort habit' for me when life is tough...

As my 'voice' has grown within me I am finding I am becoming quieter and less forceful, accepting that not everyone will like me, it's not personal if there's a basic personality clash- so long as I don't make it so by keep trying to engage on a level that's not going to happen right now.

Is conflict healthy or necessary? On balance, no. I think often we just switch dramas and make a pattern of miscommunications throughout life until we don't really know whose argument it really is, only that we are angry or in pain and someone needs to see that. I didn't break that until I did therapy for a long time with a good psychologist who pointed out over and over that some of my rigid thinking wasn't serving me well, and my expectations of others ( and myself ) were setting me up.

I can have a 'healthy disagreement' with my son, and a few of my close friends, because we know pretty much the boundaries and are prepared to stop and break and think and reframe things if it escalates into anger or frustration.

Saying hurtful things always backfires for me and everyone I know personally.

Yes, we can apologise if we go too far, but once it's out there-  the hurt is beyond our control. And as Maya Angelou once said:

I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.

I left posting on the board at one point but people asked me to come back, or thanked me and wished me well, so I want to return that: especially THANK YOU.

You're all special and beautiful and I wouldn't have got this far without you!

[reallyME]

Write: I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.

I will not label this statement, but I will say that I disagree with it.  I did not and do not MAKE anyone feel any certain way.  I'm not attached to people by some sort of invisible thread.  That sort of thinking merely fosters codependency imo

[penelope]

write, et al,
Well, it's good to hear that we all agree that conflict for the sake of the "fun of it" is unhealthy.  Conflict happens, though.  People have feelings.  They want to express what they feel...that's part of not being voiceless.  Did anybody mean to create those feelings?  Could they even predict how others would react?  What if I said I thought people would be relieved if I worked out some of my conflicts here? (I actually did think this, btw)

Kinda strange that people reacted exactly the opposite.  Instead of being relieved, it sent some into a panic. I wonder if this has anything to do with the "not invented here, so it can't be good" way of thinking (we say this all the time at work - if you want to get an engineer to accept your idea, you make it their idea, otherwise it's no good).  I don't know what it all means... I'm still trying to process it and everybody's reactions, but I think it could be something that simple.  Maybe? 

Sometimes we are all just doing the best we can - my opinion. 

It is interesting how different people have tried to "lead" the thinking throughout the various conflicts that have arisen over the months I've been here.  There have been many:  I can think of at least 10 major blowups, and lots of minor ones in between... I think that leaders of these conflicts are always brave (jac, hops, hope, Portia, to name a few), and I think they tend to be quick thinkers that can process information quickly and make decisions about it.  Others, followers (like me) cannot do this.  We react about 3 days after everyone else.  I think I'm just now starting to process it, for example.  I'll be talking about this one for awhile, I'm sure.......  Thanks for all of the feedback - good bad and indifferent.  It's helping me and that's important.

pb

[WRITE]

 I did not and do not MAKE anyone feel any certain way.  I'm not attached to people by some sort of invisible thread.  That sort of thinking merely fosters codependency imo

My immediate thoughts are- if codependency is one interpretation of the quote then another is taking responsibility for your actions.

I believe we are all indeed attached by an invisible thread, and what we put out from us affects others more than we realise.

To be a part of a community, that is a special obligation; and a healing community even more so.

Since you cannot do good to all, you are to pay special attention to those who, by the accidents of time, or place, or circumstances, are brought into closer connection with you.
Saint Augustine, 4 th Century

People have feelings.  They want to express what they feel...that's part of not being voiceless.

I truly believe we can express our feelings in a way which is neither unpleasant or burdensome for others and it's a good skill to learn.
I know people who are so calm and timid, but they have a strong inner voice and can ask for what they need, and assert themselves, and for a lot of my life I have been loud and forceful and unable to ask for the most basic things.

"Voice' is part of a whole communication- not just speaking but hearing what's coming back to us and is it balanced and trying to find reciprocity and equality and fairness. Mutuality is the heart of communication.

we say this all the time at work - if you want to get an engineer to accept your idea, you make it their idea, otherwise it's no good

there's a lesser concept of engaging someone's interest and enthusisam and cooperation so they 'take ownership' rather than take over!

Ok, time to go, Goodnight, sleep well. My eyes are closing and the poor dog is already giving me a 'what, no walk' expression...

[nightsong]

Well, I'm a long-time lurker and occasional poster here, and I have certainly seen a change in emphasis that results in the board seeming a less supportive and more closed environment to me.

As I don't visit here very frequently, but have been coming here for quite a while, maybe my observations might be useful? They are of course subjective so please feel free to disregard them if you think they're wrong 

For a start, Dr Grossman seems not to be here any more, unless I've just missed him recently. Originally he was very much part of the scene. Perhaps that gave a kind of parental vibe - at any rate there was a sense of safety that I think may have gone. He was quite capable of stepping in, commenting and even deleting threads if he thought things were getting out of hand. I believe some members found that restrictive, but I thought it was reassuring, and I always thought it underscored what the board was meant for - a safe place to contact others who had been through the same kinds of abuse.

Agreed, this isn't a support group as such. However, most of us come here because we have been damaged by Ns in our lives and we are looking for support, kindness, empathy and undrstanding. Hopefully we are aiming to give that back too. Therefore hostility, anger, rivalry, shouting, sarcasm and so on are going to create an atmosphere that many people here find difficult to deal with. Carrying on feuds on this boards, particularly in a cliquey way, creates exactly the sort of dynamic that I at least grew up with. I come here to heal that hurt, not recreate it.

Evidence is increasing that retraumatising people is bad for their mental health. Therefore I'm not surprised some folk are saying 'I've had enough' and are walking away. I think they are making the healthy choice for themselves. And those who stay to fight another day are of course getting what they want for themselves too. It's just not what the board was meant for, as I understand it.

I would like to hear from Dr Grossman on this subject. Is he still here?

[Chicken]

This will probably be my last post here, so I might as well say what I feel.

I don't always read this board daily, but it's rare that I go more than two days without at least checking in.  And it seems that lately every time I check in, another thread has started about how the board is falling apart, how people don't respect each other's boundaries or experiences, etc., etc.

I do not come here to see dysfunction in action, but to read (and write) about how we are overcoming the consequences of close association with narcissists.  The stories were often inspirational, compelling, and very touching to me.  When I felt I could offer something, I responded.  And I received tremendous kindness and support from many people here, which has touched me deeply over the difficult last few months.

I never became deeply enmeshed in this board, so I never felt that I belonged to a clique.  I never really understood what was going on well enough to take sides.  I did feel sometimes that everybody in a thread was having a party to which I wasn't invited, but I've felt that way pretty much my whole life.  Sometimes I was very glad to be excluded from whatever conflict was unfolding.

From a distance, it has seemed to me that some of the regular posters here just have to do this.  My guess is that either they engage everybody this way, or they are trying out new muscles of self-awareness and self-defence, and they haven't yet got to the point where they can let anything pass.  I have seen very little conscious malice here, very few comments made with a seeming intent to provoke or hurt.  So I have to say that it always puzzles me that people get so very, very upset.  But then, I've never thought I was on the receiving end, so I don't really know how it feels.

It seems to me that no matter how many times the air is cleared, no matter how many times we promise to do better and be more considerate, somebody, somehow takes offense and it starts all over again.  I don't know why.  All I know is that it seems to be unstoppable.  And it makes me want to come here less and less, because it just sounds like an endless emotional catfight.  It's exhausting, mostly confusing, and it's not at all what I thought this place was about.

So the only way for me to deal with this is to disengage from it.  Let those who thrive on this sort of thing play on.

In the meanwhile, thanks to all who have helped me, and I wish everyone here the best.

daylily

Hi Daylily,

I just want to say that I was deeply moved by your post and it's sad that you no longer find solace here.  To be honest, I don't post here anymore for those reasons also, so I hear you. 

Every so often, I check back to see if it has blown over, but it seems to be the norm on the board these days and all in the name of "voicelessness"! 

I don't enjoy the tension.  I am afraid to open up here anymore.  It's not a safe place for me.  I know some people prefer to stay and whittle it out but to me there is more strength in bowing out.  I see it as an unhealthy place now and have done for a while. 

So Daylily, I wish you the best, good luck with everything.  Who knows maybe things will change and we'll see you back here again.  I will continue to view now and then, but I certainly am not going to participate for now!

All the best,
Selkie

[reallyME]

Penelope:

What if I said I thought people would be relieved if I worked out some of my conflicts here? (I actually did think this, btw)

Kinda strange that people reacted exactly the opposite.  Instead of being relieved, it sent some into a panic.

No, Penelope, it turns out a lot of the time, that once the conflict has been worked out, some people either miss the struggle, get upset and jealous of the reparation of the relationship, or get upset because things have changed.

I realize this dynamic seems odd, and I agree iwth you, that the ideal, would be for people to really have REJOICED that RM and PB have come to a place of understanding and Peace, but for the above reasons, I would not hold your breath waiting for it.  It is just human nature and human dysfunctional perception, that disallows people to "rejoice with those who rejoice."

That is my take on it.

~Laura

[WRITE]

I would like to hear from Dr Grossman on this subject. Is he still here?

It would be interesting to meet Dr Grossman- maybe he'll give a lecture talk some time! Not that I seem to be able to travel lately but if I were in Massachusets I would make an appointment.

Evidence is increasing that retraumatising people is bad for their mental health

absolutely. There's a myth that reliving things is always cathartic, but without the direction of a good therapist we get 'stuck' in a bad place.
All my life I have had people around me shouting and being unpleasant, to the point I had literally tuned it out, except I got all these stress-related illnesses...I know now that reliving the original trauma is the last thing I need.

I thought what Daylilly writes is very wise too. Especially My guess is that either they engage everybody this way, or they are trying out new muscles of self-awareness and self-defence, and they haven't yet got to the point where they can let anything pass.
I wish she would not leave but I am happy she is in a good peaceful place, and why disturb that after all she's been through this past year?

I see it as an unhealthy place now and have done for a while. 

It is an unhealthy place in terms of going around and around in a cycle of arguing/ group hug. Change comes from within ourselves, we can write anything but what we continue to project out is from the depths of ourselves.

the ideal, would be for people to really have REJOICED that RM and PB have come to a place of understanding and Peace,

I don't know exactly what that's about, but I know we can't direct what other people feel or do.

One of my worst faults has been sanctimoniousness. Where I believe I know what other people are thinking or should be. I looked the word up when someone once told me directly to stop being so (!) the definition is affecting or simulating holiness or virtuousness, especially hypocritically.

Over time as I look in the mirror more and more and reflect on myself I am able to see the human faults and love myself anyway, but work on things I need to change. The progress has exactly reflected my spiritual development where now I see G_d in all things, not just my own religion; and in parenting, where I can see exactly when my mistakes and problems are reflected in my child. Even my physical self has changed and is becoming more healthy, even though it's not perfect it feels more like the real me.

What I mean is- it's all part of a whole of really letting go and beginning over and moving the mountain in moveable chunks. But it's only ME I can work on really, even sharing things it is entirely up to the other person whether they listen or what they do with that
( and isn't that what we mean by being 'safe' in a community, that other people can turn against us or hurt us by not understanding or judging? )

It is just human nature and human dysfunctional perception

or other people seeing things differently?

That is my take on it.

exactly. So it's not dysfunctional any more than someone else could call you disfunctional and it be unhelpful or unmotivating.

Language is a powerful thing, and dysfunctional and other 'cover-all' words can really close down communication Laura.

Maybe it's appropriate for some of the personal arguments which seem to have been ongoing to move onto PMs, because they're about relationhips which don't include everyone else, because it is clearly bothering some people greatly the amount of personal conflict and feeling excluded and unwilling to post their own private stuff alongside a back-drop of continual analysis and debate erupting into anger.

Arguing in public isn't a sign of strength, it's acting out.

I also think it would be a good idea to have a 'maximum posts' eg 6 in 24 hours: bit of regulation for when my internetedness becomes obsessive!!!

[movinon]

Arguing in public isn't a sign of strength, it's acting out.

Write,

I totally agree. 

It is MY judgment that is the reason a few of the wiser posters have left.

Movinon

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Hi Nightsong,

I'm here , and always reading.  I'll post my thoughts (not a lecture, though, Write!) in a new thread perhaps on Monday.

Best,

Richard 

[Brigid]

Well, after I started this post I left for the day and night and have just now read all the replies.  I don't have time now to address all the points and questions, but I do appreciate the insights which have been presented.  More than anything, I appreciate the respectfulness with which even those who disagree, have offered their viewpoints.  It is a relief to see that we can disagree kindly.

I got the various reactions which I expected to receive, and it was good to see some new folks and lurkers come out of the woodwork to express themselves. 

I will make a more detailed response at a later time, but for now I just want to say, that my post was never about wanting to silence anyone.  Why would I want to do that?  I was voiceless for much of my life and I'm still finding my voice and certainly encourage others to do the same, BUT not at the expense of hurting or silencing others. 

There is a delicate balance.  Everything that is posted here makes an impression on someone or many.  As the saying goes, "You never get a second chance to make a first impression."  What you say and how you say it has an impact that you cannot guage, especially in the cyber world.  We must keep in mind that it is not all about us.  We live in a community where we are relied upon to be good, helpful neighbors--not people who constantly cause disruption.  It's OK to have the occasional loud party, but if that is all you ever do and your neighbors aren't getting any sleep--they're going to be cranky.

Later--I'm off to swoon over Orlando Bloom and Johnny Depp (sighhhhhh),

Brigid

[Stormchild]

Thanks for checking back, Brigid, it's good to see you and hear from you.

Enjoy the movie!