On Bullying

[lightofheart]

Hiya Tiffany,

It's great to meet you, too, and thanks for starting the introductions. Yes We shall meeet again, as they say in the movies.

I think you made an excellent point about how different sarcasm, or any dark humor, can go over/feel different depending on the people involved and its lightheartedness. I agree about the ice-breaker potential. I live in an area where people are notoriously standoffish to newcomers...meaning any time I join a new group there's that long moment when I first walk in the door and all conversation stops, everyone gapes. That's awkward for me, not enjoying being the center of attention. But, thankfully, wry humor is almost always appreciated here, so sometimes just a touch of self-mockery: 1) makes me feel a little less conspicuous; and 2) is gentle proof that, unknown scary newcomer from away that I am (gasp!), at least I have a sense of humor. Or shoot for one.

I've found what you said about new friends true, too: sometimes just that one indicator about who you are--usually a sign that you're receptive to others' humor, as well, and at least somewhat comfortable with yourself--can really help launch a friendship.
I go into cringe mode when I overstep on this one..then apologize profusely, apologies being part of the glue of communications.

Speaking of which, gosh, it's kind and conscientious of you to apologize, but no need/worries about hijacking. I don't see a thread as mine to direct. I think they take on a life of their own and belong to whomever chimes in. All I did was throw the ball in the air.

Best to you, Tiffany,
LoH

[portia guest]

Hi Light of Heart, thank you for the following because it's easier for me if I wait for you to speak clearly than try to do it myself!  

I don't have a live and let live attitude about bullying. I don't think it's okay, whomever the target is.
I completely agree with you above. Absolutely. I know sometimes it is difficult to judge when is it bullying, and when is it my own perception, but there are lines which are crossed to me, which make it pretty obvious. I trust myself more these days.

I'm not afraid of verbal bullying; I just don't want to have intimate conversations with people who habitually bully others.

Ditto. Not that I have intimate conversations with more than a handful of people, but some others - I met one the other day, a stranger who spooked me - I don't even display emotion on my face. I guess I'm learning. Thanks for saying what I was thinking .

[movinon]

I have a proposal - Why is sarcasm NEEDED on this board.  Why not cut it out all-together?  I judge that some are using "sarcasm" as a way to be passive-agressive - a catch-phrase to hide behind.

I think most here will agree that whatever definition you want to put to sarcasm, "supportive" would not be one of them.  Because of this I do not feel "safe" to share with the board what's going on in my life or to be vulnerable beacuse I am still seeing the same meanness here.  I am very grateful that I have a support group here where I can be vulnerable, but I feel for those that come here looking for REAL support.

So how about it?  Leave the sarcasm for face-to-face interactions?

LOH - CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!  At the risk of sounding like a mother hen, I am SOOOO PROUD of you for standing up like you did.  Your courage is inspiring!

Movinon

[pennyplant]

That must have been really hard, with neighborhood bullies on top of your sister. Did you have another good escape outlet besides your fortune-telling days? Wish I could turn back time and give you that drum set, PP. Plus new neighbors.

Yes, it was hard.  I always thought that I could handle difficulties at home if school/neighborhood had gone well, or vice versa.  But for it to be happening in both places--well, no wonder I felt like just fleeing so often.  There was no truly safe haven, no real respite.  Remember in Forest Gump when the little girl prays, "Dear God, please make me a bird, so I can fly far, far, far away."  Wings would have been good!!!!

What I did do was pin my hopes on the future being better.  When I grow up.....  When I get married......  When I graduate college.....  Having hope got me through it.

Of course, growing up didn't fix anything either!  Was that ever a rude awakening!

Only now do I feel like I'm making real progress in life.  I'm finally seeing the real causes and effects and understanding that my real power to improve my life is inside of me.  And I will always believe that this place here has made the real difference.  It is like I found a lost set of keys and they actually fit into the right locks.

"helpful to at least one person quota"--that's a worthy goal!  Very do-able, imho!

Pennyplant

[lightofheart]

Hi Stormy,

Thank you bringing that defnition of sarchasm here.

That's a kind of sarcasm I'd never put my finger on before...and especially, insidious, it sounds like, because the utilizer would be most likely to do in front of an audience. Taking advantage of the fact that it seems like, in a group, there's a good chance someone will be willing to laugh so long as the target's not them. Or as long as the sarchasm-er can pass it off as just joking.

On the other end of the kindness spectrum, I really appreciated your offer to Movinon to delete that post.

Inspiring modeling, imho, about the power of choosing kindness over defensiveness. Pretty self-actualized behavior all around.

Given the conversation, I got a nice warm feeling over the way both of you chose to handle it.
 
Best,
LoH

[lightofheart]

Thanks for the compliment, H&H.

Well, I wish I could say I felt brave when I spoke up, but it wasn't anthing so noble. I just couldn't not say it.

I think I suffer from a form of foot-in-mouth disease when it comes to people humiliating others in public, especially if they keep at it. The foam starts to bubble up, I can't close my throat, and...boom, out it comes.

As to brave, I remember you writing about testifying for your friend in court, aginst her angry ex; that sounded pretty brave to me.

Best to you,
LoH

[jordanspeeps]

Two quick comments:

To all:

If we, as a group, agree that sarcasm has no place on this message board, then I will be willing to completely prohibit my use of it, certainly. 

and,
Is there a consensus that this place is a support group?  When I joined, I was under the impression that here's a place where you could no longer be voiceless, a place where you could express yourself, tell your story, listen to the stories of others, and let your voice be heard, whatever it sounded like.  Is it a pre-requisite that we understand and behave in the manner of a support group? (I've never been to one, actually).  Just curious.

Later
Tiffany

[lightofheart]

Hi Tiffany,

When I joined, I was under the impression that here's a place where you could no longer be voiceless, a place where you could express yourself, tell your story, listen to the stories of others, and let your voice be heard, whatever it sounded like.  Is it a pre-requisite that we understand and behave in the manner of a support group? (I've never been to one, actually).  Just curious.

What you've said here is my impression too. That VESMB is a message/info board rather than a support group.I don't think there are any pre-requisites about behaving supportively, per se. The only rules I've heard from Dr. G so far (I haven't been here long) had to do with harrassing behavior, doing/writing anything illegal, and hate speech. Does anyone know of any others?

[pennyplant]

Hi Tiffany,

I'm not sure if consensus is possible here.  My point of view is this:  Relationships of some type are possible here.  I am aiming for healthy relationships.  This means that I want to take into consideration the other person's feelings when I have dealings with someone.  At the same time I'm learning not to lose myself in that relationship.  It does seem to me that some kind of balance is possible in these relationships.

If several people continue to tell me that I need to look at some part of myself--then I think I better look at it.  So far, I haven't received a lot of that kind of feedback.  I'm not sure if I am off-putting here as I tend to be in real life (I think people can't tell easily what is going on with me and some people feel like they might be "bothering" me) or if I'm just beginning to have some success in some of my problem areas.  I do know for sure that I don't bring up a problem area of mine until I'm open to working on it and hearing the opinion of others.

I'm just not going to keep doing something if more than one person brings it to my attention more than one time.  It just seems inconsiderate to me.  This being an on-line community, well it's still a community, it's still people out there.  My "voice" is not more important than someone else's pain.  Their pain is not more important than my "voice".  There's got to be some give and take.  Everyone needs a turn once in a while.  These are probably core beliefs of mine.

PP

[jordanspeeps]

Sarcasm
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sarcasm is sneering, jesting, or mocking a person, situation or thing. It is often used in a humorous or ironic manner and is expressed through vocal intonations such as over-emphasizing the actual statement or particular words

Origins
The word comes from the late Latin word, sarcasmus, which, in turn, comes from the Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein - to bite the lips in rage,- from sarx, sark-, flesh - the root word literally means "to cut a piece of flesh (from the targeted person)."
Sarcasm is proverbially described as "the lowest form of humour but the highest form of wit" (a quotation sometimes ascribed incorrectly to Oscar Wilde, but untraceable).

Usage
Sarcasm and irony are often confused for each other in popular discourse. Irony generally refers to the literal meaning and the intended meaning of the words uttered being different (for example: saying "Smart move!" after a friend has done something stupid); while sarcasm refers to the mocking intent of the utterance.
It is possible to be ironic without being sarcastic, and to be sarcastic without being ironic. For example, one can make a statement which, while sarcastic, is the same as (not the opposite of) the literal thought expressed: No, believe it or not, I can't read your mind!
Sarcasm and irony are also regularly confused with cynicism, which in common use is seen as a fundamental nihilistic attitude toward other people and life in general, whereas sarcasm can also be used to express positive ideas or sentiments.

Sarcasm in written communication
Because it is vocally oriented, sarcasm can be difficult to grasp in written form and is easily misinterpreted. To prevent this some people end sarcastic comments on the Internet with an emoticon, emphasize words with italics, bold, and/or underlining (e.g. That's just great), or surround them with a made-up markup language tag, e.g. *sarcasm*, <sarcasm> or <snicker>.
Another transformation of sarcasm into electronic media is only possible through written language. Using extremely poor typing in a sentence, one can indicate that the holder of a certain opinion is unintelligent or overly eager. For example: "steam rox0rz teh big one!11!eleven!1!" This written slang is especially popular in internet forums. Sarcasm is also achievable through written language by using capitalization to emphasize certain words. For example: "Well isn't THAT just fantastic".


Okay,
So with the above-mentioned defiinition in mind, (sorry guys, I AM a word nerd!) can we make some kind of agreement that we do not direct sarcasm from one board member to another, but still allow for the use of it when describing situations regarding our Ns or FOOs.  If I couldn't use sarcastic wit to get me through my storytelling, I'd feel a little handicapped, or worse censored. Which is okay, but then why would I return to this board, really?  Seriously, I'd like to lobby here that we not be constricted from the use of certain parts of speech entirely, and that we learn to take responsiblity for the things we do that are hurtful to one another, indirectly as well as directly.  I don't mean to be disagreeable, pennyplant, I just think we are adult enough here to know when we being passive-aggressive and should be accountable when this happens.  And there are many more ways to be passive-aggressive than to use sarcasm.  And not all sarcasm is hurtful.

My husband, another genius at sarcasm and irony, brought up a good point, when he said, something that's reflected above.  He said, I think what's bothersome moreso to people than sarcasm is any implied cynicism.  I'd have to agree with that.  It's that general negative attitude that grates against your nerve, right?. Yes, it is a form of rebellion to use sarcasm, I used it with my Nmom the way the root origins describe it, (from the Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein - to bite the lips in rage,) and I almost considered it a survival technique.  So I guess that explains why I'm a little protective of it's use.   But again, if we are willing to veto the use of sarcasm here in all it's forms, I am definitely willing to oblige.  I get many opportunities to hone my sarcastic, (the funny, self-depricating kind, of course) skills with my hubby and school chums. But if it doesn't belong in cyberspace or in written context here, it just doesn't.

Take care all,
Tiff

[pennyplant]

Hi Tiffany,

Getting away from sarcasm is something I want to do for myself in order to be truer and more accurate about what I really feel and think.  Yes, there is the danger of censorship both for myself and for others.  I definitely don't want to go in the direction of censorship.

Well, I think I agree with your points that you've made here.

It is something more specific that I've been having trouble with.  A couple of people have posted comments which seem to imply that--now I realize I said something that hurt you, but they're your hurt feelings, and I need to say these words, and it is part of who I am, and you need to deal with it, I don't plan to change anything about myself, even if it steps on your toes, I'm not perfect, do you want me to be perfect just because your feelings are hurt.....

This is how some people's defense of their words sounds to me.  All the responsibility for personal growth seems to be getting put on the person who was hurt.  When I'm hurt it is very hard to just stop feeling that way.  Some of the defenses for sarcasm, or bluntness, seem to be dismissive.

In real life I don't speak the same way to all people I deal with.  There are levels of intimacy and sharing and comfort.

Maybe what I'm offering is that we don't have to make snap decisions about how to speak here.  It doesn't have to be a blanket policy.  Just take the time to get to know each other better.  (I guess I'm especially slow at getting to know people.)  For some it goes faster.  It seems like it can evolve as to who wants to be freer with vocabulary and content and style.  And people can teach themselves not to participate in conversations that clash with their style.  All types should have to give a little.  But this also will take getting to know each other better.

I think I do understand the benefits of sarcasm, it's kind of a bonding thing.  I've done it but not really been aware that was what was happening.  Sort of like in-jokes.  I'm slow with those too  .

There's a lot of directions this can go in.  I just think it is very important to try and take care with each other here on some level.

Pennyplant

[lightofheart]

HI Portia,

You're very welcome, I'm glad I stumbled onto what you were thinking...pretty cool when it happens. Like saving a step.

Crossing a line, you're the first to say it here, P., and you've hit it, imho. I think I always feel it when someone has crossed mine, wherever my line is just then (danger, danger, exploding safety net!) even if I can't exactly articulate what feels wrong in the moment.

I'm glad you're trusting yourself more, P. I bet it feels good, to have faith in you? You'll build on it, for sure, for every time you listen to yourself. Like with that stranger. I've gone the other way at times, ignored big qualms, and eventually, always wound up back at that first moment when part of me recoiled, then rationalized it. Wondering why I put my head up my bum when it was plain to see. Whoops!

Glad for your very happy. Me, too. 

[lightofheart]

Hiya Pennyplant and Tiffany (and Everyone),

At the risk of sounding like a serial agree-r, both your posts gave me big old yesses, thump the table and get goofy kind of yesses and, imho, carved out a lot of common ground. What you've both hit on (hear all those wonderful bells!) imho, is personal accountability, and how it can feel when it's missing from someone's behavior here. Maybe the bells are just in my head, 'cause, as a belief system, I'm just wild for personal accountability. I get ants in my pants just saying those words (positive ants, truly)

Tiffany

Seriously, I'd like to lobby here that we not be constricted from the use of certain parts of speech entirely, and that we learn to take responsibility for the things we do that are hurtful to one another, indirectly as well as directly.  I don't mean to be disagreeable, pennyplant, I just think we are adult enough here to know when we being passive-aggressive and should be accountable when this happens.  And there are many more ways to be passive-aggressive than to use sarcasm.  And not all sarcasm is hurtful.

Taking responsibility is the key, imho. For instance, some folks here never practice sarcasm and have made it clear they don't want any part of it. Some are cool with it, happy to share. Imho, it's incumbent on the practitioner of sarcasm to assess their audience around making a sarcastic comment. Short of knowing someone else's sense of humor, specifically, my view would be that I should take care in where I aim any sarcasm I set loose here. I'd feel compelled to apologize immediately and sincerely if my sarcasm went awry. Truth be told, I have put my foot in that particular poop once, apologized immediately, and hopefully learned a good lesson.

Pennyplant

It is something more specific that I've been having trouble with.  A couple of people have posted comments which seem to imply that--now I realize I said something that hurt you, but they're your hurt feelings, and I need to say these words, and it is part of who I am, and you need to deal with it, I don't plan to change anything about myself, even if it steps on your toes, I'm not perfect, do you want me to be perfect just because your feelings are hurt.....

This is how some people's defense of their words sounds to me.  All the responsibility for personal growth seems to be getting put on the person who was hurt.  When I'm hurt it is very hard to just stop feeling that way.  Some of the defenses for sarcasm, or bluntness, seem to be dismissive.

I share this perception 100%, and have trouble with it, too. I often see a double standard at work. Imho, I've read too many instances where one person chooses to pounce, verbally, based on what they assume a 2nd person's tone or intentions speak to--rather than taking their words at face value. The person jumping to conclusions blows up, makes accusations, then justifies it by blaming the 2nd person. So the 2nd person is blamed for both what the first person has assumed (aka, projection) as well as whatever toxicity the first person dished out. Zero accountability, and a double whammy. I call this looking through one-way glass.

Okay, I'm so tired I can't see straight. Just wanted to respond to y'all because what you've said resonates so much. Thanks!

Best to you, and G'night
LoH

[lightofheart]

Hi Movinon,

This is the part I worry about with sarcasm, the pause-giver, what you've said so well here:

I think most here will agree that whatever definition you want to put to sarcasm, "supportive" would not be one of them.  Because of this I do not feel "safe" to share with the board what's going on in my life or to be vulnerable because I am still seeing the same meanness here.  I am very grateful that I have a support group here where I can be vulnerable, but I feel for those that come here looking for REAL support.

So how about it?  Leave the sarcasm for face-to-face interactions?

I agree that sarcasm is less risky in person. People can hear vocal tones, see the smile or eye roll or that helps signify intent. What you've said about vulnerability is, IMHO, the saddest aspect of bullying here: it changes the nature of the conversation. And we're not talking about the orange crop or widgets. This is sensitive, deep-seated stuff. I always want to remember that, and respect that other folks here might be in a more fragile place. To honor the risk of speaking up, period. My broken record refrain is that we all have room to speak our minds without venting disrespect or belittling anyone. Not censorship, but simple respect.

Thank you, Movinon, you don't sound hennish, just kind. I don't know another way but to speak up, so I couldn't call it courage.

Best to you,
LoH

[jordanspeeps]

Hi everyone,

Short of knowing someone else's sense of humor, specifically, my view would be that I should take care in where I aim any sarcasm I set loose here. I'd feel compelled to apologize immediately and sincerely if my sarcasm went awry. Truth be told, I have put my foot in that particular poop once, apologized immediately, and hopefully learned a good lesson.

Ditto and thanks for thank, loh.  I'll save the sarcasm altogether and make an attempt to be more creative and direct in expressing myself. Sarcasm is one of my crutches and I don't wish for anyone to suffer any collateral damage as a result of my sometimes flippant postings.  I want us all to grow and make progress here, so I'll be happy to be more direct in my conversation.  Take care, pennyplant, movinon, and lightofheart.  It's great learning from you.

((((((((((to all)))))))))

Have a great day!
Tiff