Pheonix-NTherapistReply

[Anonymous]

I'm usually cautious in responding quickly to perceived abuse. I like to go over possible misunderstanding on my part first. I didn't have the title Narcissist or Personality Disorder in my vocabulary at the time, but I had a full understanding of the type, from my NMother. I'm very careful not to make N's angry, especially if they have children. If you've been the child of an NParent you know why. They go home and take it out on their kids. So I'm especially watchful to think, "Is this point I want to make worth the possibility that this N could go home and hit their kid over the head with a saucepan". But this situation with the NTherapist created quite a few new problems for me and I did respond to her a few weeks later, after she phoned me. I was careful but critical.
(1) I informed her that I was not satisified with the quality of her therapy. That some of it had been useful, but also recounted to her my reality, how she had given me name, phonenumber, bookname etc.
(2) I told her this had now caused even greater problems with NHusband.
I reminded her how extremely difficult it had been to get him to attend in the first place, and now he had observed this behaviour of hers, his view of therapists being a total waste of time was confirmed, in his opinion. This got him off the hook, a very convenient excuse. How could I defend her behaviour. I couldn't. He had been present when she gave me name, phone number, book details etc., and was there when she denied it.  

Consequently I doubt he'll ever drop that as an excuse, if it's ever suggested to him that he should see a professional about his parenting techniques, but I didn't tell her that.

(3) I told her that it was not her place to tell me to forget everything that I had read in that book, and thanked her because it had been such a helpful book.
The conversation was strained, and I'm sure she was as glad as I was when she asked "When we are coming in again, I'm concerned about your son?" and I said, "Don't be, he's seeing someone else." That was pretty much it.

How I handled it was I took the advice of the other dame, and began slowly constructing a network for my son. I enrolled him in Karate, which he loves and I've been taking him to classes every week, 2 or 3 times a week, over the past 12 months. He's nowhere near as anxious about schoolyard bullies now. Yes, still slightly, but not like he was. He graded through 2 colour levels in the last 12 months and has made quite a few friends there. I also enrolled him in violin lessons at the same time and he is working his way through book 1 quite well. He has had a few kiddies violin concerts that he's performed in and his confidence there is quite a surprise. All the while I'm meeting other mum's and he's feeling like part of a community.  Anyway, that's how I handled it plus learning yoga, and trying to pass on a few techniques to help him deal with situations where he feels anxious. NHusband doesn't get involved too much, but that's okay, then he can't make trouble. He's still the biggest problem I have.
So how I handled it was head-on to the isolation. Still miles to go, but you've gotta start somewhere.
And Pheonix, I've read quite a few of your posts and found you most helpful.

Thankyou
pp

[Discounted Girl]

This only relates to parent-child narcissistic relationships. What I have concluded is this:

You cannot announce "oh look, my parent is a narcissist and I want nothing to do with them." Others will not understand and you will be viewed in a variety of ways, all of which are negative. Smear campaigns spearheaded by the N's will be reinforced. The ONLY ones who understand are those who have been victimized and have crossed the bridge of knowledge about this. Parent N's violated the trust and responsibility placed upon them when they became parents. That has to rank pretty high in the big book of no-no's. That said, other adults who are close enough to see the internal workings of these sick families and witness and have direct knowledge of the damage and abuse going on should take steps to stop the N -- warn them, threaten them, expose them, spread the word, whatever it takes to make them back off and leave these kids alone. I know it sounds risky and can backfire on you, but I know if I am ever in such a situation I will step forward. Who cares about having a relationship with an N anyhow. It seems that the one thing they hate above all else is to be ignored and to be exposed. Besides my father (who must have become N-infected by my NQueenmother late in his life), I have 3 close aunts who stood back and said nothing to their sister about how she treated me. I have only learned of these things in the last few years, but they have all admitted to me that, even though they were disgusted by her, they sat in silence and listened to what they knew were lies about me and witnessed her torture of her little girl. Then when we were alone, they would go to great lengths to be nice to me. It blows my mind that someone would not protect a child.

PP, I was prompted to write this when I read your comment about being cautious and not make an N mad for fear they will harm their children.

I realize that not all ACON carry the wounds we do, maybe most don't, but a lot do. I don't know why -- thin skin? stronger perceptions? souls of strong substance? overly sensitive minds? Doesn't matter. A person who tortures their child, physically, verbally, emotionally, any way whatsoever is totally without redeemable value.  They should be in jail, but it's all too secret, fuzzy and built on deceit. Evil is clever in its disguise.

My anger has actually subsided some after reading and posting here these last few months, but it will never go away. I also have lost a lot of the shame I carried around. I was innocent, still am, and didn't deserve any of the abuse she dished out nor betrayal by the others who turned their heads, including my father. Children are so very precious -- each one has the right to be told they are special, important and loved. I have a lot of flaws, messy baggage and all the other stuff that makes us squirm, but I have a crystal clear conscience concerning my children. They are 100% sure of my love and their importance to me and to the world.

DG a/k/a Swan Girl  

[pp]

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[seeker]

Hello PP and DG,

I feel compelled to add a bit of my story for DG. Before I do, just want to say kudos for PP for finding the right therapists for your team.  It's another great lesson in trusting our own instincts.  My daughter had a therapist who challenged the findings of six professionals and accused my daughter of "playing games".  OK, you don't want to be on the team, you're off!  She also called me up so she could "understand" my decision.  She then confessed that she parked my daughter in her office while she wrote letters to other parents!  Brother!

I feel Ns find psychology and religion to be the perfect sheep's clothing to hide under.  It doesn't mean all therapists and religious leaders are N but it does automatically put one "above reproach" upon first inspection (unless you are a priest   ).  I think it is ironic (and unfortunate) that your Nhusband was the "witness" to the N behavior of the therapist!  I'm so glad you were able to extricate yourself and find appropriate help.  

OK, DG: Boy I hope you don't read this as "taking on" what you are saying in your post.  What you say is absolutely 100% valid.  I want to share this with you to give you another party's perspective.  Maybe it will help.  I don't know.  Here goes:

My NSIL is absolutely wacky.  We didn't know how it would affect children because it seems that kids' needs are exactly what set her off.  We didn't fully appreciate this until she had a child.  She totally rejected this child because he didn't love HER (as a result of her insecurity and extremely controlling anger).  He was a baby, for crying out loud.  Of course, she turned to try and rope everyone else in to do the parenting for her.  It can't be done.  No one can fill that role on a substitute basis. Esp with the original first-string parent still on the scene creating havoc.  Your aunts did the best they could.  

It wasn't until she had another child that we (my family etc) cut her off.  The second child was destined for the same fate as the first.  And it was so plain that she had no interest in mothering, only in joining the Mother Club (for NS).  The second child, IMO, was doomed.  The first child was psychologically "discarded".  It was in our totally backing off that she felt exposed and ignored.  It was in backing off that the truth was "told". And as someone said, Ns totally hate that.  She revealed her true colors herself because this made her angry enough to go public.  She undid herself.  We said nothing so as to give her nothing to fight or with which to change the subject.  

We couldn't save these kids, (that was very very hard to confront and accept, believe me) but maybe this lack of support has saved other children from being brought into her madness.  Our involvement was actually enabling the whole thing and we had to unplug to save our own sanity, of course, but also make her and her husband face up to the fact that something is seriously wrong here.  She absolutely could not and would not accept the criticism that she is a seriously inadequate parent from any of us.  Even a non-N would struggle with it.  

Again, your anger is totally valid.  It's unfair you drew the "mother" you did.  NSIL's kids are already angry and confused and they are quite young.  I don't know what the right answer is, but I couldn't sign up for her program.  It would only encourage more abuse (in our case).  Perhaps your aunts hung in there because if they rocked the boat, you would come out in even worse shape and this way they were able to maintain some loving contact with you.  Perhaps this is why you know what love is and why you know that the way your mom treated you is not normal.  You were shown a different way of being by your aunts.  ??? I also know that the teachers at our school know of children in similar circumstances.  They do the best they can to offer support without causing the parents to fly away and thereby take the children away from that support.  

Hope this sheds a little light from a different angle, a different possibility.  Thoughts?
 Peace, Seeker

[Discounted Girl]

Thanks for your POV Seeker -- always appreciated. I have forgotten, but I guess your NSIL is married to your brother? It's their father who is also damaging his children by allowing this to go on -- just like my dad did. Your NSIL is not worth having as a mother, wife, SIL, nothing. He should leave her and take those kids. That's my opinion. I know that Nparental abuse is more subtle than beating children with a baseball bat, but it's abuse nonetheless and most people don't know it's going on. If I were married to a man who beat our children, I would leave him -- if I were married to a man who psychologically abused our children, I would leave him. I know not all people have the strength or wherewithal to do that. Many women think they "need" a man and think they are not capable of making it on their own. They fail to seize opportunities placed before them. Ignorance is a sad thing. It's all so very complicated. My brother was not N'd by her, just me. My brother and his family dislike me for reasons based on the lies the NQueenmother told him about me. What dark and wicked slime must dwell inside her. I made a terrible mistake in not exposing her when I realized her "misunderstandings" were outright lies. I realize now that I tolerated her and hid my disgust in order to maintain a relationship with my dad. In doing so, I only made things worse for myself. After standing on guard all my life, I am real tired. Constant vigilance for her attacks has worn me out and the lack of support I have received from those close to me has made me so very sad. Ick ,, I am now nauseous again. Anyhow, I am rambling, so thanks Seeker and to all of you for your insights and sharing your POV's.