Ebb and Flow

[pennyplant]

Once in awhile someone comes along and reminds me of who I am and what is important in life in such a way that it actually gets through my self-absorption and into my heart.  The right words at the right time.  Moon did that for me last weekend.  I think now I was waiting for such a person as she is and such a moment in time.  It came together just right and I was able to share my recent breakthrough (as it was happening) on the "Supporting a friend from a position of weakness" thread.  Hey, Moon, you never know what it will be or when it will be that the difference is made!!!!  So, all we can do is keep being our best selves as often as possible.

As is my usual pattern, I felt quite good and very expressive for a couple of days afterwards.  My husband noticed it, as I was more talkative and upbeat than I have been in quite awhile.  When he came home from work one day, it was threatening to rain and I have had urges lately to get wet in the rain but haven't given in yet.  But I thought, let's get some take-out and go to the county park and sit in the truck and eat and listen to the rain with the windows open a little.  He liked the idea and so that is what we did.  But the rain held up a bit, so we found a nice pavilion in our favorite part of the park and ate there.  And the rain did come down while we were in there and it was nice and cool and we felt the mist and we talked and talked.  Mostly me talking about my new knowlege.  My decision to let go of the N person I work with.

A day or so later, the N person called work to talk to the supervisor (she is pretty enmeshed with him) and I noticed something uncomfortable happening inside me.  Just knowing he was on the phone with her triggered a response in me.  I immediately slipped back into the habitual fantasy mode and remembering the past with him in a favorable light as opposed to what I know to be true, that it is difficult and painful and manipulative to hang around with him.  And it seemed so very clear in that moment that I have an addictive side to me.  I already had realized intellectually that I used crushes and emotional affairs to escape from problems and pain.  But to have felt good, strong, and ready to move on for several days, then in one moment with one phone call to someone else, just me knowing it was happening, to slip right back into that little rush of endorphins.....  It is so obviously an addiction type of problem.

So, I became somewhat glum for the rest of the day.  My husband noticed this too when he got home.  He always worries that some thing has happened when I am brooding.  He reads me pretty well.  He mentioned it and I just said, I have a lot to think about.

I'm letting myself think about these things.  And feel the feelings.  It is not as hard as I thought it would be.  Every day a new little fact emerges.  Sometimes I feel like laughing I feel so good.  Sometimes I just need quiet.

I can fully understand now why no contact is best.  But one has to be ready for that.  Controlled contact did lead to some important new knowlege in this case.  It seems almost like my own little science experiment.  Only nothing blew up!!!

There's no going back for me now.  I worry a little about slipping up when he is actually around me.  But I believe that circumstances will work in my favor.  Already my work schedule has changed in such a way that I will be able to say, if asked, that I can't work there next week (where he works).  He has not emailed me in over a week, and I actually stopped myself from emailing him when I wanted to.  Another breakthrough.  As long as I deprive him of supply, he will not even think about me.  And that is actually beginning to seem like a good thing.  Somewhat of a relief.

I think I can ride it out until my addiction is a thing of the distant past.  Several of you have pointed out that new, better things will come along and fill in for what is gone.  That is good to know.  It will get me through the low times.

It must be different for everyone as far as how long this process lasts.  If anyone has similar types of experience with this type of addiction, it would be interesting to hear how it went for you.

Pennyplant

[moonlight52]

Pennyplant ,Thank you for your kindness.Seems so interesting that you are the key that unlocked my FOO.When you helped
me to understand that my fathers decades of guilt was covering his actions.

Your breakthrough with the N in your work environment is wonderful.I can see you and your husband  in your car with the falling rain
discussing all the emotions and sharing deep thoughts.

There is always a gift within the problem.
so much love to you pp
You have been the key to open the secret of my origin family FOO   (N DESTRUCTIVE DAD)
I and my little family will be forever saying thanks the girls like having a mom that is lot more happy

love to youPennyPlant

moon
PS   I wish I could write like you pp but I sure do enjoy reading the pictures you paint with your words.

[ANewSheriff]

My husband noticed this too when he got home.  He always worries that some thing has happened when I am brooding.  He reads me pretty well.

You are lucky and blessed with this mate.

I'm letting myself think about these things.  And feel the feelings.

How courageous!  Resist the urge to turn back if it comes.  You are making wonderful progress.

It seems almost like my own little science experiment.  Only nothing blew up!!!

(Giggle)  The fear is almost always worse than the reality. 

If anyone has similar types of experience with this type of addiction, it would be interesting to hear how it went for you.

I am pretty sure addition is my official middle name on some birth certificate somewhere in the Midwest.  I cannot say this particular one has bit at my ankles, but I can relate to the essence of your experience.  You are not alone.

ANS

[pennyplant]

Hi Moon,

I think it is so nice that we gave each other an important key.  And it just seemed to happen that way.  I do find that I can respond to kind, gentle people now.  Before I didn't know what to make of them!!  Honestly!!  Perhaps I have trouble with trusting people.  (This is when my sarcastic side says to myself, Ya think?!?  )

Today I worked at the office where my N friend works, only he wasn't there when I was.  (I knew this ahead of time.)  I did work with one of the sweetest women I have ever met and we talked all afternoon.  Interestingly the subject of enabling came up!  She said her husband tells her that people take advantage of her sweet and kind nature and there is a friend of hers that he can't stand because of that.  So, that made it more clear to me why my N friend has moved onto to this particular lady as his next supply source.  I figured there had to be something in her that he sensed he could work with.  Of course, that particular topic never came up and never will.  It was just something very interesting to have learned.  Also today, I found out I will be working with my N friend twice next week.  At first I started to panic.  Then I remembered, there must be more for me to learn here.  Not all the way there yet.  Things happen for a reason and most of the time the reason involves an important lesson.  So, I hope I can be at least outwardly calm next week while I watch the next chapter unfold.

Hmmm, I originally brought up the topic of this sweet lady I worked with because I noticed today that I felt like I could trust her.  She has not got one critical bone in her body, that she expresses anyway.  Always, always sees the goodness in people.  That made me feel at ease today.

When you gave me the key I needed, Moon, I guess I was open to it because I feel at ease with you.  It is funny to me that I would have a harder time feeling that way with kind people.  Maybe because I know what to expect with mean people and know how to deal with them, or I know how I habitually deal with them at any rate.  Kindness is new territory for me!  Sad but true.

Side-note:  You know what I like about the way you write, Moon?  It is that I sense you write the way you talk.  So, I can hear you when I read you.  The first time I noticed that about someone was when I heard the author Tillie Olson speak (Tell Me A Riddle) and she spoke in real life, just off the cuff, exactly the way she wrote.  And I like that very much.  It made me realize that is one secret to good writing.  From the heart to the page.  That is what I am striving for in my writing.

Love, Pennyplant

[pennyplant]

Hi ANS,

Thank you for your comments and support.  About my husband--he is an amazing person.  When I compare what life would've been like if I had gotten "snagged" by an N right off the bat (instead of running into them later on in life) I realize what a nightmare that would have been.  My husband is exactly the opposite of N and someone I can be myself with.  The thing I am learning now is not to overburden him with my current struggle.

As I have watched the N friend move from supply source to supply source, and been so hurt by it, I thought, what must his wife feel every day, knowing him as she does and probably having seen this played out many more times than I realize?  She might even have numbed herself to it by now.  And then I thought, well, you told your husband about having a crush on someone twice now.  How must he have felt in his heart?

Well, he told me that it was his worst fear that I would find someone else to love more than him and then just leave him.  So, I must have hurt him in the worst possible way when I told him that.  Yet, he has been strong about it and supported my journey as well as he is able.  He hasn't kept his hurt to himself but he has been strong about it.  And now I finally realize, I have to take better care of him!!!  I can't abuse his giving nature by putting too much of this on him.  I have to carry most of it myself now.  He is on a journey of his own too.  And there has to be room for both our journeys in this marriage.

I think we are going to be better off in the long run.  It is still hard sometimes now, but I am 100% confident that what we have is the real thing and it is permanent.  I think he is worrying less about losing what we have and is seeing I can be supportive too.

It's surprising to me how much effort it takes to learn these things.  Most of each day my mind is working on some aspect of the current situation.  I sometimes envy other people who just live life and take things as they come and seem to enjoy the normal activities of day to day life.  They enjoy being busy all the time.  They don't seem to be needing to work out the whys and hows so much.  I'm just not made that way though.

If the urge comes to turn back--well, I am pretty sure that urge will come.  And I don't know what I will really do given an opportunity to slip up.  If it comes to that, where I make a big mistake, the main thing will be to get up and try again.  That I'm sure I can do, if necessary.  Maybe it won't come to that anyway.  But regardless, I still want to go forward and will find a way to do that even if I make it hard for myself.

Work in progress.....

Pennyplant

[penelope]

hi pp -

I have only read your first post, but wanted to reply before I lost some thoughts, so I apologize if it seems I'm a bit behind here...  First of all, I want to say that your whole post resonated with me.  Thank you for sharing what sounds like a very deep and painful experience.  This is something that is very painful for me to admit as well, much less address, but your thought below struck me profoundly:

I already had realized intellectually that I used crushes and emotional affairs to escape from problems and pain.

I know that I do the same thing (probably has to do with N Dad?) and it's something I've been avoiding for a long time and I've even avoided the topic in therapy, as it seems to complex and convoluted...and I'm not sure I'm ready to go there even.  Giving up emotional affairs might mean giving up my only joy in life, at times!

heh.  But I realize it is inevitable...and it will eventally be a part of my therapy, if I can keep up my current momentum and strength, I may just get there too.....

How are you feeling about all this in general?  I mean, you've described good and bad days being inevitable, but how do you feel about this taking a long time?  How do you feel about slow healing, having the patience with yourself to let things happen at their natural pace.  Not wanting or needing for things to change or go away completely all at once.  I mean, this is going to be hard to completely change a pattern.  This is definitely one of those cases where I don't think immediate healing can be or is even possible.  This pattern of thinking, this way of relating to others..if only in my head, is so deeply ingrained in me, anyway.  Maybe this evolves in parallel with good boundaries?  Yes, you've given me a lot to think about here....

thank you pp

Re: Science Experiments blowing up.  Hey, not all the good ones are fancy and blow up!  (you knew I had to say that  )

pb

[pennyplant]

Hi Penelope,

Yes, a couple of things...

I do think it has to do with my dad on some level.  With me, my dad probably had Asperger's Syndrome.  He had the emotions but truly was clueless about sharing them, expressing them.  Other than anger.  It was very hard to connect with him.  So, on the one hand, I was a child who craved love and affection without even knowing what it looked like!  And on the other hand, I must have experienced love as something of a one way street.  Always loving from afar or loving someone who wasn't going to be able to give it back.  I do think it is possible to compare with the experience of an N dad, but I just don't really know how.  Ns act the emotions without having them?  Opposite from what Aspergers does, but maybe ending up in a similar way as far as how the child will learn to love?  I still haven't sorted it out by any stretch.  But I do believe this flawed or difficult relationship with my dad is a factor in my lifetime of crushes and emotional affairs.

Yes, I have a great amount of difficulty wanting to deal with this aspect of my self.  It is a mixture of things.  One big one is that I have spent a lifetime truly believing that I am unloveable.  That hurts tremendously.  And it is very hard to unlearn.  I have spent my life seeing only what reinforces this belief that I am unloveable.  So, when I suddenly am confronted by a man or men who acted interested, (such as what happened when I got the job I have now where it is about 50/50 male to female, a first for me) it was like rain in the desert to me.  Not being loved in return never stopped me from having crushes before, but when it seemed like my feelings were being returned, wow, it felt so incredible!

And this happened in spite of me being married to a phenomenal man who loves me like crazy and more and more each day.  I guess it wasn't enough for me to have love only one time.  I mean, it might be a fluke.  Being loved one time by one person didn't prove my loveability to me at all.  This is how I think and what I have had to deal with as far as unlearning my belief that I am unloveable.

The length of time healing takes--oh, I am very much an impatient patient!!!  I hate how long it takes.  And the fact that I cannot control the speed or the results.  And I also drag my feet because I still have that addiction thing going on in there.  The short period of time that it felt wonderful--well, I still remember that and I still have hope that it could happen again.  Logic can't always win me away from that hope.  So, I'm sometimes progressing in spite of myself.  And regressing sometimes in spite of myself.

Other issues:  well, guilt.  I mean, I never wanted to hurt my husband.  In fact, I kept it from him the first time it happened and became so depressed I was crying all the time and he got very, very worried I would do myself in.  I had to tell him in order to save my sanity.  Otherwise, I wouldn't have.  Who wants to hear that their wife has it bad for someone else?  Nobody wants that.

Also, I hate to be judged and, therefore, disliked, maybe even ostracized.  Everyone has opinions or has heard opinions on cheating, affairs, etc.  It might happen a lot, but it is not an acceptable custom in western society, let us say.  In fact, the N friend who I wanted to have the fling with often makes derogatory comments about people who cheat.  Talk about a mixed signal!  Of course, being N, he has a way to justify his behavior with women that completely absolves him of any responsibility.  I mean, here we have someone who does these things, judging others for being weak.  I sure don't want to be judged.  Which makes it kind of hard to talk about it and work it out.

It is a very complex problem, PB.  Giving up your only joy in life--Oh, I have used this "hobby" as a reward many times.  I can't think of too many things in my life that have felt this good when it feels good.  When it breaks my heart--well, I think to myself, this is what it feels like to really be alive, other people felt this kind of pain when they were teenagers and learned about love then.  I skipped right over that.  So, to have my heart get broken, in a way it makes me feel like more a part of the human race.  And I can't help but think that in skipping right over falling in love and getting broken-hearted in youth--I missed some very important lessons in life.  I feel ignorant.  Like a child.  And I don't want that.  I want to know what other people know!  And I want to learn it in the way they learned it!!!

I guess I feel now that it is going to take as long as it takes.  It does help to have breakthroughs and times when I feel pretty good.  Gives me hope.  But keeping it to myself didn't work, telling about it didn't really speed it up any.  Talking and thinking and watching for lessons all help.  But it can't be forced.  I've tried that!!!  I just can't make it happen in my time.  It has to happen in the fits and spurts that I've been getting by with.

The boundaries issue seems to be related, but I'm finding that one easier to work on.  I think I'm making better progress with that.  Faster at any rate.  Don't know if it has contributed to my recent breakthrough or not.  I tend to think I was just ready for this breakthrough.  This board and the words and love of the members has helped me with general healing.  I suspect that is the major factor.

I know I have a ways to go.  I work on things as I'm able.  Some issues I have to let rest for awhile when I hit a plateau.  I don't think I lose too much ground by doing that.  You don't unlearn lessons like these.  My weak moments, well, I'm working on self-forgiveness when that happens.

It's a really hard part of life.  A really difficult part of my past and my personality. 

Thanks for your questions, PB.  It is so hard to sort this out sometimes, that having specific questions is helpful.  It does turn around and around in me.  You know, when I think about giving it up, sometimes I feel so sad.  I imagine myself at the end of my long life, 85 years old and in the nursing home, and looking back and thinking, boy, I never got to have my "adventure"!  I missed out!  That is not what I think all the time.  But I think it often enough to know that my "adventure" means a great deal to me and to have to give it up is really hard.  I suppose that as I go along, I will come up with a better outlook.  That other important things, like my husband and my marriage being of utmost importance, will settle in with me and drown out that other, very young thought.

You know, inside, I'm about 14.  I figure if I let her develop, eventually young Pennyplant will mature, maybe into her twenties or thirties!  I could live with that I guess.

So, it goes the way it goes, PB.  As you work on your other stuff, maybe some of it will relate to this subject in some way.  When you're ready, you'll know it, I believe.

Take it easy now and good night.  I have an early day tomorrow and have to get to bed.

Good night to all.  Pennyplant

[adrift]

PP wrote:

Yes, I have a great amount of difficulty wanting to deal with this aspect of my self.  It is a mixture of things.  One big one is that I have spent a lifetime truly believing that I am unloveable.  That hurts tremendously.  And it is very hard to unlearn.  I have spent my life seeing only what reinforces this belief that I am unloveable.  So, when I suddenly am confronted by a man or men who acted interested, it was like rain in the desert to me.  Not being loved in return never stopped me from having crushes before, but when it seemed like my feelings were being returned, wow, it felt so incredible!


Pennyplant, are you sure you don't have a long lost twin?? So much of what you write is MY LIFE!

And this happened in spite of me being married to a phenomenal man who loves me like crazy and more and more each day.  I guess it wasn't enough for me to have love only one time.  I mean, it might be a fluke.  Being loved one time by one person didn't prove my loveability to me at all.  This is how I think and what I have had to deal with as far as unlearning my belief that I am unloveable.

The short period of time that it felt wonderful--well, I still remember that and I still have hope that it could happen again.  Logic can't always win me away from that hope.  So, I'm sometimes progressing in spite of myself.  And regressing sometimes in spite of myself.

I SO understand.  I still think of my EM (emotional affair) everyday and somedays wonder about starting it up again.  Other days I'm very strong.


Other issues:  well, guilt.  I mean, I never wanted to hurt my husband.  In fact, I kept it from him the first time it happened and became so depressed I was crying all the time and he got very, very worried I would do myself in.  I had to tell him in order to save my sanity.  Otherwise, I wouldn't have.  Who wants to hear that their wife has it bad for someone else?  Nobody wants that.

My life, you're living my life.  I practically had a nervous breakdown when "he" rejected me (he'd so led me on and then in one instant rejected me) I cried and cried and was a basket case.  I finally had to tell DH.  Suicide was very close at that time as I could feel myself very soul breaking in to.  DH handled it fairly well.  THen I ended up falling for "him" again and got burned a second time.  THat one was a little harder for DH to handle, understandably so.



It is a very complex problem, PB.  Giving up your only joy in life--Oh, I have used this "hobby" as a reward many times.  I can't think of too many things in my life that have felt this good when it feels good. 

Yes, it feels so good to be admired, flirted with, desired............because I've never felt lovable or capable.

I don't know that my EM guy was/is an N, I don't think he is.  But like me, he enjoyed the attention and we both got carried away by it all.  He has been a hard habit to break, even though he absolutely broke my heart twice.  And I've often thought that it's just like when my dad didn't love me and how I could never get close to him.  I guess in doing this emotional dance with "him" I was playing that same game all over again,.....actually in many ways "he" reminded me of my dad and since my dad is dead I guess I was reaching out for the love I can never get from him (my dad)

THanks PP and all, for sharing your stories.  It helps.

Adrift

[pennyplant]

Hi Adrift,

When you mentioned how you felt suicidal at times, it brought back to me the incredible pain I felt when I lost the first person.  I had never felt pain like that before in my life.  It was unrelenting.  It felt like I was burning up inside.  I don't  know really what it was.  Maybe the pain of loss.  It seems I bonded with him without realizing it until it had already happened.  I did fight it most of the way, denying it to myself until I couldn't deny it anymore.  Sometimes I thought the pain came from the suddenness of the loss.  I wished I could have talked with him or it could have happened more gradually so I would have had time to get used to the idea of him not being around anymore.

The next one came along and sort of took the place of the first one.  It did happen differently this time and the pain has not been nearly as severe.  The soul searching has been deeper and harder this time though.  I do believe the first one was the result of naivete on both our parts (he was quite a lot younger than me).  The second one, I really think he is N or has many N tendencies.  Both of us have boundary issues.

I hope that in a couple years I'll look back on this and just be grateful for the opportunity it gave me to become my true self.  I'm pretty sure right now that is what it happened for.  It would be nice to believe that I had an impact on his life, but sadly, I don't really believe that is possible with him.  If he is capable of growth, it just doesn't seem like it will be as a result of knowing me.  It doesn't seem like he misses me like I would expect of someone who was capable of real bonding.  Good old N.

I hope things start looking up for you soon, Adrift.

Love, Pennyplant

[adrift]

Boundary issues.  I certainly have those.  I let people walk all over me, but yet I'm such a bitch--go figure.  I never understood my EM---he would be very receptive to my signals and sent plenty of signals of his own,,,,,he even arranged for us be alone once, but then he got cold feet.  Or maybe he wanted to talk about it----I'll never know cuz I made a physical move, he mentioned his wife, and as I was walking out the door he said, "but I love you" about the time I said "WELL THAT'S JUST GREAT!"  My "that's just great" was in response to his remark about his wife, not in response to his "love"---but the way it happened he would have thought, and I'm sure still thinks, I said what I did in reponse to his love.   Then there was a lull where we avoided each other, then it started up again and this time he tried to arrange for us to be alone several times (in a covert way--only once was he straight forward about it and I truly had already made other plans for the evening)  and it didn't work out.  Then he went cold.  Then finally I suggested we meet and he responded in an ugly manner saying "he'd only tried to be my friend"  What the heck that was all about is beyond me.   He's married too and I don't think he's ever been unfaithful to his wife, so at least he has a conscience of some degree.    He would run hot and cold, but then so did I.  The last time I saw him he was very attentive, but DH was here and I was kind of distant.   So for over two years this has gone on.  Neither one of us knowing how the other one really feels or where we stand.   A Tragedy of Confusion as opposed to Shakespeares Comedy of Errors.

For a while the whole thing strengthened my marriage as DH and I opened up to each other, but our marriage is rocky at best.  Basically we're together for the kids and we're both worn out emotionally.

Adrift

[pennyplant]

For a while the whole thing strengthened my marriage as DH and I opened up to each other, but our marriage is rocky at best. Basically we're together for the kids and we're both worn out emotionally.

I think overall, my marriage is stronger now.  But we had a roller coaster with that as well because of my two EMs.  He seemed to want to be strong at first.  He let me talk about it as much as I wanted.  I praised him up and down for letting me do that and to me it felt like he was my hero for being able to do that.  Then when that new part of the new knowledge wore off, we would argue about something else and he'd feel bad that he was no longer a "saint" in my eyes.  It was hard to separate out our everyday problems from the big one I had introduced into the mix.  But I tried to be honest all the time.  And he started calling me on things instead of always being such a passive listener.  That is something new for him.  I actually like that, that now he will not just always listen and praise me all the time (and try to please me constantly).  I prefer the give and take.

That was what I liked about the first EM.  He would argue with me and ask pointed questions and not just accept everything I said at face value.  I mentioned that to my husband several times.  I don't know if he is specifically working on that or not.  But he has changed as far as being more expressive and opinionated.

It's easier for my husband and me, Adrift.  Our kids are grown up (which is sad to me) but it does leave us the space to work on us now.  It's more complicated for you.  Maybe you're staying together for the kids now, but maybe that will win you time to work things out.  You can only do so much, though.

With my second EM, he is big into imagination.  There were two times when something real might have occurred but things came along to interfere.  But I think he was probably relieved.  Imagination gives him complete control.  Nothing can go wrong in his imagination.  He brought up the idea of guilt all the time.  Except he kept talking about my guilt, which I didn't really have much of.  I know I'm responsible for my actions.  I think I'd feel guilty if I was trying to avoid responsibility.  Or maybe my guilt feeler is broke.  At any rate,  I think that was projection on his part.

It's so hard to stop thinking the what-ifs.  It seems to me that it would be easier to let go if regular life were going great.  Happiness is a great distraction!!!  I think I will always have questions that I will want answered, though.

PP