Current relationship with N

[WRITE]

You know that I am currently moving towards a divorce with my ex, but trying to maintain the best relationship possible so we can continue to raise our son together.

It seems an increasingly distant memory now to me, the days when I thought 'I'll never be out from under this maniac!' ( a line from a Disney movie! )

I just wondered- how many people here still have the Nism as the central thing directing and affecting their life?

[Stormchild]

If being a single person economically dependent on income from an abusive workplace qualifies, Write, then count me in. I've been trying to figure out how to get into something else but preserve a decent income and insurance coverage; being over 50 now, with health problems, in a mushy economy, it's not so easy.

I'm just starting to explore the indy route - as in independent - but I'll need to change professions for that.

Most freelance consultants in my area of work stay in business for about two years, just long enough to run through their savings and end up worse off than they started. [I do know this for a fact, because I've known a lot of them.] The ones who last are the ones who had achieved sufficient stature to be name brands. That's what they sell, their name and whatever connections they have - not primarily their expertise. The ones who go to work for consulting shops generally get used up like Kleenex, pushed to put in totally insane amounts of billable hours and kicked to the curb when they drop from exhaustion... I ain't going there, either.

So it's gotta be something I can do, on my own, that I'm good at, and am honestly compensated for without having to have lawyers available to enforce it. [You don't want to know what happens to some of the freelancers.]

I have a couple of irons in the fire, now. So, true to form, even though I have said nothing about this at work, my workload has significantly increased.

If you look at this in economic and psychological terms, it's really quite similar to an abusive, entrapping marriage.

Including the fact that I have finally realized there are no good options within the structure.

I was valued once, and appreciated, but those people were independent thinkers, have left, and were replaced by individuals to whom I am a puzzle at best, a threat at worst, simply because I think and solve. [Although, ostensibly, that is my job.]

It's not going to get better, just like an abusive marriage does not. One in a hundred thousand times, things turn around. I'm not going to win that jackpot. I have to make my own prize. At least I fully grasp that now.




 

[Brigid]

Write,
Having gone through a divorce from the n father of my children--with not so much worrying about the relationship I kept with him, but protecting the kids from collateral damage as much as possible--I would say to keep the needs of yourself and your son as your primary objective.  Your relationship with your h will work itself out over time after the divorce is final and you hopefully both move on with your lives.

I think if you work too hard at trying to maintain a positive relationship with an n through a divorce situation (I'm sure other situations apply also), he will use it to your detriment.  I think your best move now is to maintain as much physical and emotional distance as possible so manipulation cannot work to his advantage.  He can still maintain a relationship with his son, but you don't need to be involved any more than necessary since your son is old enough to manage that relationship.

Because I could not trust my xh any further than I could throw him, I worked almost entirely through my attorney, with virtually no contact with my ex until all was said and done.  We did end up needing to go to mediation for the final settlement, but it worked to my advantage and I did protect the kids and my futures as best I could.

We now have a cordial relationship and deal with kid issues as we need to.  Occasionally we even exchange friendly e-mails with information about what is going on in our respective lives.  But I know I can never trust him again, so consequently we won't ever have more than an acquaintanceship in my mind.  The kids are both adults now, so they have to establish their own relationship with him and determine how they will view, forgive, forget, whatever, what their dad did to our family.

Brigid

[moonlight52]

Write 
MY DAD IS AN N I only talk with him on the phone and he calls me.

Very different set up.It has to do with respect.

I do not hate him .I do not know how I feel not afraid for the first time which is good.

He seems to be reaching out to me like he does not want to lose me but I do not quite trust him .
I hope for the best.

ps My dad did give me my photo of my kind sweet mom after all.

Love,
MOON

[WRITE]

I was valued once, and appreciated, but those people were independent thinkers, have left, and were replaced by individuals to whom I am a puzzle at best, a threat at worst, simply because I think and solve

oh dear Stormchild, I hear your frustration and disempowerment, and I hope someone comes along with less ego who can see the benefit of your solutions.

Economic stuff is so difficult, one place we really are tested to make a 'leap of faith'.

The kids are both adults now, so they have to establish their own relationship with him and determine how they will view, forgive, forget, whatever, what their dad did to our family.

I guess the sentimental or whatever part in me thinks it's nice you exchange friendly emails though. I want to be like that too- no residual hate or anger. I really hope my ex moves on and makes a good life. I agree- the kids will ultimately have to carve out their own view, not yous, not his, you put that very well.

He seems to be reaching out to me like he does not want to lose me but I do not quite trust him .
I hope for the best.

I hope that you fidn some relationship level to function on Moon, I did try the cutting all ties with my father, if anything I grew more troubled. But it took a lot of boundary setting and tantrums from him before I got to the point where I saw my father and I as a relationship again, and even now i woudl be wary if his life changed or he had a crisis, i would expect him to become demanding again.

[Hopalong]

Hi Write,
I think Nism is shifting off being central to my life, but in major ways...

from Stormy: If being a single person economically dependent on income from an abusive workplace qualifies, Write, then count me in. I've been trying to figure out how to get into something else but preserve a decent income and insurance coverage; being over 50 now, with health problems, in a mushy economy, it's not so easy.

This is true for me too, and my job is over in Sept. 30.

The other is that I live with and care for my Nmother.

My close friend A has a very-Nmother, and we have bonded deeply over that. First time, other than here, I've known anyone who gets it so thoroughly.

I have fears about my D's N characterisitics.

I am not dating now, but would like to again, and avoiding Nmen will be veyr important.

I'd say it's a major issue in my life, but one that I see changing in every area. There is growth and healing in each part.

Hops

[Certain Hope]

Hi Write,

   My mother is very narcissistic, but I don't know whether she'd qualify as NPD.

She called this morning. I rarely contact her, because I can't bend my brain around her version of reality or what's important in life.

She'll be 80 years old this week. She and my 86 year old Dad are preparing to travel around the world to be near my very N brother, who has been facing some difficult struggles. She loves to be needed. It makes for a great story, too. "ahh... woe is me... it was so difficult, and the whole thing simply exhausted me, but I just had to be there for my son". Hooey. Shoulda given him a kick in the pants 50 years ago and maybe he wouldn't be such a pain now.

So we talked for an hour. Actually, she talked and I listened. The first 20 minutes was all about the many problems she faced with packing for this trip. Can't take liquids. That mean she has to leave behind her laundry detergent. Gotta have scripts on any meds. What will she do about her creams and eye drops that aren't Rx but she uses them under doc's orders. 20 minutes. Not a word about the impact of terrorism on those people who are dying, only how it makes her travel plans more complicated and I, of course, have no idea how rough this all is cuz I don't go anywhere. 55 minutes into it, she suggest that she will put Dad on the phone to say "hi". He has no idea she's even called me. He's thrilled to hear my voice. She says, "I'll just stay on this phone, but I won't talk". She won't even get off the line. I could just cry. Absolute control. She knows Dad doesn't want to take this trip and she won't even allow him the opportunity to voice his feelings to me. Of course, he could pick up the phone any time, but he won't. He tells me that he tries to get her to call me but....   helpless, I guess. Learned helplessness. All responsibility and authority relinquished. About the only way he takes a stand after 58 years of this is to blow the car horn after he's been waiting for her for 10 minutes in the driveway. Now that takes guts. 

   I love my parents. I have no designs on changing them, nor do I need for them to change in order to grow beyond the many effects they've had on my life. I just wish that I didn't feel so sad after receiving another dose of their dysfunction. Thanks for listening.

Love,
Hope

[WRITE]

my job is over in Sept. 30.

did you ever read that 'Do what you love and the money will follow' book Hopalong? It changed my whole perspective on what is work.

In a way though from everything you have said the last year or so I wonder if you don't need a break, and life has this way of making you take one.... Have you been free of back pain still?

My close friend A has a very-Nmother, and we have bonded deeply over that.

the best friendships come from these close bonds.

 My mother is very narcissistic, but I don't know whether she'd qualify as NPD.

I think it happens on a continuum, from N traits all the way through to remorseless psycopath.

Not a word about the impact of terrorism on those people who are dying, only how it makes her travel plans more complicated

it's funny isn't it, I've heard this a lot from younger people too, irritated at the delays.

She knows Dad doesn't want to take this trip and she won't even allow him the opportunity to voice his feelings to me.

the terrorism is a good way of you getting to talk about it maybe- he can use it as an excuse to vent without blaming her!

My father 'ruined' my brother with money and over indulgence for years, has had an about-face now which seems healthy but is more about he has a new wife and can't be bothered now he doesn't need a dependent companion...sigh.

I have no designs on changing them, nor do I need for them to change in order to grow beyond the many effects they've had on my life.

I don't think we can change other people CH, it's sad when we know so well what is really going on, but often that's why family is the worst place to be. ((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))

[Hopalong]

Write, thank you. It's very kind of you to ask:

my job is over in Sept. 30.

did you ever read that 'Do what you love and the money will follow' book Hopalong? It changed my whole perspective on what is work.

--I did, a long time ago, though I've mostly lost my nerve. Have security on my mind. But I'm a lot less afraid of "the deadline" than I was. That's in very large part due to this board. I have some networking things and am talking to people and I just have more faith that things will work out. !! 

everything you have said the last year or so I wonder if you don't need a break, and life has this way of making you take one.... Have you beIn a way though from en free of back pain still?

How very good of you to remember this. It is MUCH better. I am not taking narcotics daily any more. Two main reasons: I went on the new AD Cymbalta, which is effective on nerve pain, which amazes me. (Doesn't hurt with mood, either  . And, I was fantasizing about a new mattress, went online to the site of a local company that manufactures very fancy organic ones, just daydreaming, and discovered a bunch of editorial things I knew I could improve. On a whim, I emailed the owner, and long story short, he's given me a 76% discount on a WONDERFUL custom-firmness all-natural organic latex mattress, and I got it for the price of an ordinary one stuff with rat hair, or whatever they put in them these days. I am writing marketing pieces for him. And he's a very interesting nice guy. Adds a little time pressure, as I'm doing $1K in work. But worth it. My mattress was the same one I'd slept on since I was 12 years old. Duh. Not so good for the spine.    I still have the pain, and it can go acute if I do anything stupid, and usually hurts quite a bit by the end of the week. But today, after lovely rest, it's feeling amazingly better.

My close friend A has a very-Nmother, and we have bonded deeply over that.

the best friendships come from these close bonds

It has been just amazing to understand each other, to share the same literal phrases out of our mothers' mouths, etc. I think that is one reason I was so frantic when she got cancer. She's home, recovering from the surgery, and in excellent spirits.

Thanks again, (((Write)))

Hops

[penelope]

hi write and all,

Some good news, a major N at work is leaving!!  (Probably afraid of losing his job in our recent reorg, maybe he was asked to leave due to recent screwups?)     I don't actually work for this N, but those who do hate him.  But, I sit close enough to his office to hear his conversations (Shudder) and he walks by my desk 4-5 times a day.  ick.

Other than that, no Ns in my life right now.  I have not heard from N Mom and N Dad since before Christmas last year when I told them I wasn't coming for Christmas.  I'm very surprised Mom hasn't tried to contact me, it's unusual as in the past, she'd be at my door with the police, having convinced everyone that my boyfriend had "kidnapped" me and was brainwashing me (exaggeration, but you get my point). I think she's more likely BPD which means she fears abandonment, big time - and that is why I say I'm surprised she's not tried to call.   N Dad has not called or tried to contact me and I'm not surprised, cause he's likely written me off - cause that's what someone with true NPD would do if you said you wanted no contact and told them exactly what you thought of them (which is sort of what I did).  This has got to be looking bad for them with their friends, and appearances and all, that I'm not speaking to the family; I do wonder what stories they've fabricated about it (how I've gone crazy, was always the crazy one in the family, etc).

Sorry to hear you're trying to redefine that relationships with your N.  No contact is so much easier...

(((((((((((((((((((write))))))))))))))))

pb

[Plucky]

Hi Write,
you are way ahead of me on the divorce curve, but I just want to echo that you should never completely relax your vigilance.
I find that whenever I do that, or I think, we can have a friendly relationship where I don't have to watch my back.....the other shoe falls.

With distance it does not take up such a large part of your mind.  And the more distant the relationship, the simpler it is, and the easier it is to have a good one, I think.   

Plucky

[Certain Hope]

Hi Pb,

  It's good to read you     Good news re: less N-ness on the job, too!


Hi Plucky,

   I didn't realize... you are still married to... N ?  Sorry.

Love,
Hope

[WRITE]

/new AD Cymbalta, which is effective on nerve pain, which amazes me. (Doesn't hurt with mood, either 
/he's given me a 76% discount....And he's a very interesting nice guy
/just amazing to understand each other...She's home, recovering from the surgery, and in excellent spirits

This is the kind of thing I write in my Thankfulness journal! SO glad you are doing well, and my condolences for the loss of your other friend.

Some good news, a major N at work is leaving!! 

This too!
I'm sure it's a big relief all round.

never completely relax your vigilance.

I know ( sigh )
It can be one thing one day, sompletely different the next.

It's helping me consolidate what I need from another relationship though: someone who is already developed and knows what they want. Insecurity doesn't bring out the best in most people, the least in me!

[Plucky]

Write,
vigilance is exhausting isn't it!  But the result of not being vigilant is even more tiresome.
I have been through a divorce before (I almost forgot!).  There is some sorrow, even for the worst relationship, sort of like a phantom limb.    And through the years, when I think about the time I wasted, the money he squandered, the tears I shed, the lack of support I hadn't, I have felt resentment.  But it fades, like all else.   I also have had a long time to think about the reasons I propelled myself into that ridiculous marriage in the first place.

Hope, Yes I'm still married (2nd one), but he has moved out.  What a relief.  And my H may or may not be N; the N who drove me here is my mother.   I really think my H grew up among an N or Ns, although I haven't been able to identify which of his FOO is.  It could be him.    I don't really care.

a hijacking
Plucky

[WRITE]

through the years, when I think about the time I wasted, the money he squandered, the tears I shed, the lack of support I hadn't, I have felt resentment.  But it fades, like all else.

it does doesn't it. I can't even remember some of the things now, it seems pointless to dwell on them.

And my ex once said, in response to something similar I said about it being really hard to get beyond some of the things I said in a psychotic outburst once 'you wonder just what you have to do to make it right' ( something like that, can't remember exact words )

I also have had a long time to think about the reasons I propelled myself into that ridiculous marriage in the first place.

absolutely.
And in my case having extricated myself once going back and remarrying!

When someone's behaviour is really bad outwardly it's easy to blame them for everything, but that's their lesson ( how they can change or how they need to change )

My soon-to-be-divorced neighbour is 13 years older than me, she told me yesterday that her husband's reckless financial dependence began very quickly into the relationship and she allowed it to happen; now she's changed but she says she doesn't blame him- except for his lies and manipulation- but she needs to be aware if she has another relationship that she has been able to ignore/bypass a huge red flag in order to facilitate the relationship she wanted and the problem sat with them for the whole marriage. Now she feels if she had addressed it initially- even at the risk of the relationship would falter and maybe end- it wouldn't have grown to be the size it now is, his abandonned career and the resentment she has in seeing her inheritance considerably reduced for no good reason.

I'm going to return to my list of qualities again and try to relate it to in life scenarios. Because it's not always obvious, like my neighbour said, a few unpaid bills and a guy not being worried who pays doesn't seem like much of a problem- but it signified a much deeper attitude problem which eventually undermined not only the relationship but her security and planned retirement.