Am I the Only Agnostic?

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Hi Mud,

From the article:

"Upbringing played a large part in determining respondents' degree of faith early in life. But as respondents became adults, genetics became a dominant factor, either strengthening or reducing the role of religion in their lives. Koenig drew her conclusions based on the fact that identical twins, who share all their inherited genes, have similar degrees of faith in adulthood, while fraternal twins, who share half their inherited genes, tend to deviate in religiousness as they become adults."

So, take the hypothetical family where there are four children, one set of identical twins and one set of fraternal twins.  The study suggests that when the children are young all four will have a similar degree of religious faith—due to upbringing.  However, when the children become adults, the two who are identical are more likely to have similar degrees of religious faith than the fraternal twins who are more likely to vary on this dimension.  This suggests that genetics is contributing to degree of religious faith in a significant way.

I say “suggests” because identical twins may influence the world (parents, teachers, peers, etc.) to respond more similarly to them than fraternal twins do.  For example, if the identical twins in this example both have attention deficit, hyperactivity disorder due to a genetic factor, the world may respond to them in a particular way—influencing their future beliefs, attitudes, etc.  Whereas, (let’s say in this example) only one of the fraternal twins has ADHD due to genetic factors--then the two get responded to differently, and their beliefs, attitudes, etc. may vary later in life.  This would be an alternative explanation of the same data.

The author probably feels the first explanation is more likely given the similar degree of religious faith among all four as children.  Similar religious faith suggests similar response from parents, at least on this dimension. 

We should also note that this was a study of only males—not females.  I haven’t seen the original study, so this is the best critique I can do.

I hope this helps,

Richard 

[Stormchild]

thanks, hops.

I'm a Christian, but have Jewish ancestors on my mother's side. My will divides my estate, if there is one at the material time , among the Christian peace churches and Yad Vashem [after making provision for the care of any surviving pets].

I don't evangelize for three reasons, all of which I must emphasize are my reasons, not anything I'm advocating to anyone else.

One, first and foremost, is that I'm simply not credible. I'm much much too flawed and damaged to be a poster child for the transforming power of anything [except the negative transforming power of prolonged emotional abuse, which I wouldn't recommend to anyone ever]. And I know it. I'd be a counter-advertisement to anything I ever tried to sell on that basis. Assuming I could manage to get even one sentence out without laughing myself silly at the sheer nerve of it, for me.

Next, and this is controversial, I - personally! this is just me talking now, and only my opinion! - have always been ill at ease with anything that feels to me like 'marketing God'. Even a whiff of deity-as-commodity is enough to make me head for the hills. That's partly why I've been unable to find a church; church-as-commodity affects me the same way. I'd have made a lovely Welsh or Irish anchoress, around say 1200, but I don't do well at all in the here and now, with this attitude of mine.

Third, and this is really the rock-bottom core of it for me: that free will thingy. I have read the Old and New Testaments through from Gen 1:1 to Rev 22:21, in multiple translations and paraphrases, and the one thing I find constant throughout is that free will thing. To me, it is the whole point of the whole thing. We were created free to choose. We remain free to choose. If one looks at the gospels one does not see Y'shua ben Yosef engaged in compulsion; one sees teaching, informing, frustrated impatience at times, but huge amounts of forbearance and the kind of love that extends itself and serves. He never tried to force anyone to believe anything. He simply told them things, behaved consistently with what he taught, and left it to them to choose.

If I can put it this way, it appears - to me - that Christ himself considered human freedom to be sacred. Of course, psychologically, there are sound reasons for this: a choice made under compulsion, whether brainwashing or the desire to impress one's boyfriend, is no choice at all. It is unlikely ever to be internalized... which is why cults are so rigid and authoritarian! ... but the bottom line is, if I have understood all this aright, then our freedom is sacred, even to God! -- and in that context, the making of some choices are really much more like sacraments than like anything else.

Thanks for letting me get this off my chest. It seemed like the appropriate time and place. I prefer to talk freely of what I believe, but that is because it would be both dishonest and disingenuous for me to do otherwise, especially here where the link between healing and belief is so brightly illuminated as we work together.

It is up to others to decide for themselves how much of my talk is reflected in my walk, and what that signifies.

[Overcomer]

You know?  It is a miracle that I have decided to be a Christian.  The model of Christianity that I had to endure my whole early life was based on hell fire and brimstone.  I was raised that drinking was a sin.  I remember the first few times I was in a bar I was sure the rapture would occur and I would be left behind!!!!!  Going to church was a thing we did - no questions, we were there.  I think I mentioned in an earlier thread that I always felt like there was this club - and everyone at church knew what was going on but I didn't..............I just couldn't figure all that out.  So funny, I went into Christian retailing..................I started being exposed to books and different authors.  And let me say this, there are a whole bunch of quacks out there!~!!!  But I started reading books from men like Erwin McManus, and John Eldrege.  Brian McLaren and Rob Bell.  Then I met my next door neighbors  - early thirties.  Totally cool.  I realized, all these men think like I think.  John Eldrege says something like this.............."I cannot believe that heaven is going to be like a church social in a church basement drinking koolaid out of styrofoam cups........."  Something about that statement picqued my interest..............that's it!!  I cannot live eternity in a church basement!!  There is a whole new generation of Christians who have thrown out the typical church service and the religiousity of their parents' and grandparents' Christianity.  It's all about relationship.  It's all about peace and love and forgiveness.  It's totally different than the Christianity that is modeled to me day in and day out by my pretentious nmom...............even my daughter's friend said to me that my mom thinks she is a Christian but is so judgmental........and yes, that is a part of it.  She thinks you have to look and act a certain way in order to be...............well, it's bologna and I know it.  So I strive for that understanding of God..................it's a new way to look at it.

Books.................A New Kind of Christian and Generous Orthodoxy by Brian McLaren.................Sacred Romance, Journey of Desire, Wild at Heart, Captivating by John Eldrege.........................Velvet Elvis by Rob Bell........................(and his Nooma DVDs...awesome.........)........Uprising by Erwin McManus (also Barbarian Way and another one which he changed the title to and I can't remember....)  So many new thoughts (or maybe they are old thoughts that have been morphed by the ages......) 

[Hopalong]

This is so lovely.
I am LOVING everyone's thoughtful contributions here.

Hops

[mudpuppy]

Thanks Richard.

But I still am not sure what the significance is.
It seems pretty logical that our genetics would have some determination in how we respond to our parents. The study for instance, as far as I can tell, does not say that identical twins are more or less likely to follow their parents beliefs only that those who do tend to follow them together more often than fraternal twins. Well that's hardly a revelation. I imagine that if one identical twin learns to eat cheeseburgers from his or her father then his twin is more likely to follow suit than a pair of fraternal twins. Of course identical twins are more likely to be alike than fraternal. They are more alike.
Correlation is not causation.

mud

[teartracks]

Hops,

You have lights blinking all over this cyber ship.   Great thread.  Wonderful discussions.   I love the level of sanity in it all.

teartracks

[Hopalong]

Wow. TT. Thank you.
I feel the same about the board...in waves. Some great surges of depth and respect.
Just love it.

Hey Monsieur Mudde Mon Ami,
As I follow it (if I do) such a discovery about a genetic propensity toward faith wouldn't undermine the power or mystery of any belief. Because if it's revelation and miracle, and all part of creation, then the creator would have a hand in the design of those folks who find the path to religion easier, or harder, to follow. Just as such a creator would have a hand in frogs, bakers, cows, dinoaurs, jaguars, and farmers. IOW, incomprehensible diversity. So learning more about human similarities and diversities...would just be...more. Not less. Not taking away.

Hops

[moonlight52]

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     WHAT A MIND    So well done by all.................................. at the end of the day how do we prove our faith?

                                    MoonLight

[WRITE]

at the end of the day how do we prove our faith?

 

A friendly study of the world's religions is a sacred duty.
Mahatma Ghandi

[mudpuppy]

Hi Hops,

What I'm trying to say is all the study in question indicates is that identical twins have a propensity to respond to stimuli in the same way, not that there is a genetic propensity toward faith. Identical twins have a propensity to respond to most if not all stimuli similarly. It seems clear that if one identical twin tends to accept the faith of his or her parents then the other one does as well. All that shows is that identical twins tend to be similar.
To be truly genetic in nature, in the sense of inheriting some propensity toward faith, you would have to demonstrate that people who come from long lines of spiritual people tend to be spiritual themselves and you would have to show that this was not the result of environment. I'm not sure how that could be done, I doubt that it could. The other method would be identifying a gene which predisposes certain people to faith. Not too likely a prospect I don't think.
I'm not arguing against this twin study because I think it 'undermines the power or mystery of any belief.' I just don't think the information presented represents what the article in question said it did. It seems like pretty questionable science to be charitable. Most scientists and grad students are fairly good at collecting data. Its the conclusions and inferences drawn from them that usually cause the problems.

at the end of the day how do we prove our faith?

We're supposed to live it not prove it. When the day is done is when we get our proof.

mud

[Hopalong]

Thanks MP--
Mud, I would like to make you a statue of The Thinker..in mud!

I so hope things are going peacefully with you and Mrs. Mud and there's strength for the day.

Hops

[moonlight52]

Hi Mud and All,

I must say when the idea of "twin studies" were brought into this conversation I got triggered.

When I and my twin were growing up we were spoken of as the "twins".

We even thought of ourselves as one person especially as kids.

Also twin studies to me brings up other historical twin studies that were cruel and I end up thinking of that room of terror and our own Dr. of terror our N dad.

SO THATS WHAT I WAS FEELING,even reading about twin studies scares me.

But scientifically proving My faith or anyones is not necessary or the point as Mud says about Faith :

We're supposed to live it not prove it. When the day is done is when we get our proof.

This is so true

Moon

[Hopalong]

You proved what a good heart is to me, Moon.

I would have loved your brother just as much.

(((((((((((((((((((((Moon's dear Twin, Happy and Laughing)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

(((((((((((((((((((((((Moon her Ownself Who is Super-Wonderful))))))))))))))))))))))

Hops

[movinon]

Write,

Sorry I didn't get to your question until now - being off the board.  The community I spoke about was not church-based at all.  I have taken them off of a pedistal and put them where they belong - on an equal playing field.  I guess you can say I've CHOSEN to remove my rose-colored glasses.

Thanks for asking.

Movinon

[WRITE]

I have taken them off of a pedistal and put them where they belong - on an equal playing field.  I guess you can say I've CHOSEN to remove my rose-colored glasses.

good for you!
Someone said elsewhere on this thread about churches worshipping themselves and sometimes it's true, but when you're struggling a good church is one where people bring you dinner, listen to you, and hold you in their private prayers.

I know you're having a difficult time right now sorting things out, I saw your thread about mediation. I have Lundy Bancroft's WHy Does He Do that: inside the mind of angry and controlling men' and I would want a lawyer or mediator on my behalf knowing about that model of abuse and the way it escalates in response to imposed authority; pm me if you want me to pass it on.

Don't worry too much about money- other people here will tell you they have coped that way knowing it's a small price to let go of for their peace.
Focus on your health and well-being and a workable framework so you don't have to keep seeing him and going over and over all the stress.

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