People can tell... (for Pp)

[Certain Hope]

Dear Pennyplant and all,

   Not wanting to interrupt the conversation between you and Anansi on the other thread, it seemed best to begin another based on this: 

  People can tell when I'm uncomfortable or struggling or whatever, and they apparently can also tell that I'll be just fine and will carry on anyway and they can then be free to use their finite resources on more pressing problems.  I save a lot of people a lot of effort in this way.  And I have been doing this to myself all my entire life!  But I never before saw it so clearly.

   Also with no sarcasm whatsoever... your statement has brought me to see that this has been a recurrent theme in my life, as well.
I started to say that it's not been the predominant story, but maybe that's simply because I've never been able to recognize it before. I don't know whether or not I can even express what I'm now seeing, but I'm afraid that if I don't try, it may slip away from me. I think it's different from that to which you are awakening, and yet connected in a way that may help us both (and others?) if we can take a closer look at the underlying features.

   As the self-appointed people pleaser and fixer of all, I know that my own needs often went unmet. Because I felt that my own insights and emotions were so different, more intense, with so much more impact on me than what I'd see evidenced in the demeanor of others, I often felt like a foreigner in a strange land, unable to speak the language. (Small talk has never been my interest, either. I think because it's so often appeared to me to be nothing but shallow and vain, phony, a cover up for all that which the parties involved seek to keep hidden.) Above all, I think that I was afraid of my own neediness. This has come to light for me recently as I've recognized how important it is to me to feel secure and protected within intimate relationships. If I need, then I'm at risk. If I deny my needs, then I'm expected to be able to accept behaviors which leave me feeling empty and taken for granted. If I confront my needs and express them openly, then I am naked in the face of ridicule. Suddenly I am a child again, running for the cover of ... a martyred sort of self-sufficient competency yet running on fumes, my emotional tank empty. Is this registering with you at all?

   For me, I've been "mom" to so many kids (and men, and coworkers, and family members, and friends), called upon to help them find, sort through, express, and receive fulfillment of ... their emotions, my own have been left in the dust. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the words, "You are such a strong person."  <insert sarcastic remark here> Do you know, I don't think that this has ever once been said to me as a genuine complement? If it has, I've missed it. When I think back, it's always been received by me as a dismissal. What I hear is, "You can manage so much better than I... let me tell you all about how rough it is for those of us who are weak." And the beat goes on.

   I don't know where you'll go with this next, Pennyplant, but I'm eager to join with you in the journey. For now, I am temporarily suspended in the light of this newfound knowledge... not that I'm weak (this is not a new insight) but that there has been an internal battle within my self for so very long, between wanting to be seen for who I really am and needing to protect that little needy one from those who would once again give her the bum's rush through to "grow up and deal with it". All of my life, I think I've been thrown in with people who for various reasons could not or would not express emotions or any sort of need. Going right on down the list, every intimate contact has practiced one or another method of avoidance... hey'd sulk, they'd isolate, they'd throw a tantrum, they'd aggress passively... and I'd stand and take it. No more. God knows I can't do it anymore.

  Much love, Pennyplant.. thank you for sharing your moment in the light. I trust that this is only the beginning.

Hope
 

   

[Brigid]

Dear Hope,

These words of yours jumped out at me:

For me, I've been "mom" to so many kids (and men, and coworkers, and family members, and friends), called upon to help them find, sort through, express, and receive fulfillment of ... their emotions, my own have been left in the dust. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the words, "You are such a strong person."

I have to say that I am a little weary of people thinking I am so strong and that I will get through a crisis without any help or support from them.  I want right now to be weak and needy.  I want someone else to mother me for a change.  Pathetic perhaps, but true.  However, there is no one to fill that role now anymore than there was 3 years ago when I needed it. 

What I have found difficult too, is feeling as though I am entitled to have feelings of my own and to put myself first.  I was just starting to feel as though I had earned some time to myself when my marriage fell apart and I once again had to enter rescue mode and give all my efforts to protecting the kids through the divorce. 

In my new relationship, I have allowed myself some selfish moments, but not without the accompanying guilt of neglecting my duties as a parent.  Now that my daughter is leaving, I feel guilty about not having lined up a string of important things to do so as not to look lazy or uninvolved.  I now have to recreate my life once again and I honestly don't know what to do.

Brigid

[Certain Hope]

Dear Brigid,

I have to say that I am a little weary of people thinking I am so strong and that I will get through a crisis without any help or support from them.  I want right now to be weak and needy.  I want someone else to mother me for a change.

  That doesn't sound a bit pathetic to me, and I really do not think that's because I am feeling much the same way.

  It does seem as though each time there's a prospect of living a semblance of a "normal" life, some circumstance (which I've generally viewed as a ridiculous/dangerous/havoc-engendering action by someone besides me) throws me back into survival mode.
It's tiresome indeed. I'm discovering that I've been emotionally "checked out" for some time, simply because all of those feelings got in the way of taking my next breath and not going under the water. But now, after two years of marriage to my current husband, old desires to lean on someone else have been reawakened and... they're frightening.

  That aside, I understand what you mean by this, too: "In my new relationship, I have allowed myself some selfish moments, but not without the accompanying guilt of neglecting my duties as a parent."  My 2nd daughter finished high school and left home a year ago. Her circumstances, including the guy with whom she's involved, are far from ideal and this brings plenty of "What if(s)" to mind.

  But Brigid, I'm not sure of the meaning of this:    Now that my daughter is leaving, I feel guilty about not having lined up a string of important things to do so as not to look lazy or uninvolved.   
    Because of your closing sentence, I'm thinking that you mean a list of goals for yourself to accomplish now that your nest is empty.
Or are you also suffering regrets involving some unfinished business with your daughter who is going on to pursue her own life?
These crossroads in life bring out such feelings of being torn asunder, I know... and the pressure seems to be on immediately to "make it work" ... make it productive. I'm in the "terrible twos" of my third marriage, with a 15 and 10 year old who went from having mom all to themselves to being required to deal with N for 3 years... and now this...
Not that "this" is bad, but they certainly have no reason to expect it to do well, you know.
Expectations.
Maybe that is what this is all about. Are these changes re-opening old wounds from unmet expectations? Did we have visions at one time long ago of where we might be at this stage of life? In my mid-40s now, I'll be 55 when my son completes high school and honestly, there's been so much upheaval in our family over the years, I never had an opportunity to consider the future. Too busy trying to survive the present and even when there was a short-lived lull, 4 kids, down to 3, and now 2... presented plenty of opportunity to keep busy just managing the household.

  I don't know about recreating life, Brigid. Maybe it's more like rediscovering. Not to get back to who you (we) were at one time, but to take a good, long look at who we've become, always keeping hope in view. Regrets, unmet expectations, so many challenges... and now, for you, a bit more solitude.... with nothing left to be distracted from, perhaps, leaving a sense of decisions needing to be made. But do they really need to be made now? Or just continue doing "the next thing" and wait to see what develops? I don't know, but I'll be right next to you trying to sort it out.

Much love and hugs, Brigid,
Hope

[Hopalong]

Hi Brigid,
I feel for you. Suddenly the stage is deserted, all the young actors have dashed off to their next auditions, the lighting crew is shutting down the lights--snap, snap-- and you're looking at the stage, seeing the ordinary wood planks that are the floor, the ordinary dirt that's collected in the hem of the curtain. You have a discarded costume over your arm and you've realized...show's over.

It's not true!!! There are new plays, new acts, even new players to look forward to! You'll meet your D's new friends now and then, get updates on her adventures, go visit. One day, she might place a plump grandbaby on your knee.

But all that's later. Now it's time for you to accept the emptiness of the empty stage. Lean into it, listen to it, and stop fearing it. It's very different from a busy full stage with action, dialogue, scene changes and audience laughter... but it's still real, B. This is just another piece of time. Maybe what's hard is that you have nothing to direct.

Know what? It's okay. Let the other plays go on in other theaters. Just try to find some peace in this stillness.

This really jumped out at me:

to do so as not to look lazy or uninvolved

look that way to whom?

I don't know the answer but I bet it's an important question.

love,
Hops

[Hopalong]

Hi Hope,

I wanted to ask you if my questions are welcome, if you'd like a comment from me...
(if not please know that I am not going to take offense).

thanks,
Hops

[pennyplant]

Hope,

Thank you for starting a thread about this.  It is a big one for me.  It is actually one of the central questions of my life--how can people tell that it is okay to dismiss me, leave me on my own, never really connect with me?  Well, I guess the real question for me is, why don't I matter all that much?  It is all I have ever known.  To have a piece of that question laid to rest is a really big deal.

As I just posted on the other thread, it is disappointing as well, though.  I fantasized that at some point in time my biggest problem in life might be how to juggle my appointment book!!!  Instead, my next challenge is more like what Brigid has expressed.  What do I work on now that I have entered my middle years and nobody really needs me all that much?  I too am tired of it always being assumed that I am strong enough to handle anything that life throws at me.  I don't think I am any better at that than anybody else is.  But others seem to get a lot more support along the way.  I resent that.  I survive and get past these problems because there is no other option.  I'm not going to roll over and die because everybody at work thinks it's always okay for me to be the one who does the dirty work all the time even though there is a person junior to me.  I'm not going to roll over and die because I didn't get invited to the lunch that was planned right in front of me.  But it gets mighty tiresome to have to be that strong all the time.

It is good that I know my part in it.  I can fix that.  But I don't want to become wary and paranoid and stodgy because of protecting my interests.  I will, however, find a way to protect myself better now, because I sure don't want to go back to the old way.

Much of your post resonates with me, and Brigid, yours as well.  So, now I do feel less alone about this, more valued.  I hope that I can start liking me better because of this new direction.  It's going to be interesting I think.  It truly feels like I made it through a big obstacle.  The emotions of anger, sadness, disappointment are just going to have to exist for awhile, maybe until the next step comes along.

Okay, it's just about getting to be bedtime for me.  Good night, everyone.

PP

[Certain Hope]

Hi Pennyplant,

  You are most welcome. Initially, I recognized that it's a factor for me, too... and after reading your response on the other thread, I realize just how big an item it is. I sense alot of resentment in that post, too, and it echos a great deal of what I've been feeling lately in my personal life. Boxing may not be such a bad idea... for me, at least.

  You know, I wonder whether these others who seem to get all this support are really feeling all that supported by it?
I mean, at times I would definitely appreciate a shoulder on which to cry; but after awhile, that other part of me comes along to say, "you know what you really need even more is a kick in the pants!"  And maybe that swift kick is just as big a part of what others don't recognize is necessary at times as a comforting arm... when we appear most often to be so strong and "in charge"?
Can't really blame others for not meeting our needs if we never admit that we have any, can we? I have a terrible time with this, along with a very strong "I'd rather do it myself" attitude which alternates with a silent cry of "helllpppppppppp me". I can tell that this is going to require alot more direct talk and self-examination to sort through, but whatever it takes, it's got to be done.

  And Pennyplant, there are alot of things I've never picked up on that "everyone else" seems to just "get". It's such an odd combination of insight and naivete that often leaves me bewildered. I can only think that there must be some aura that's given off.. and this was even before I became a Christian.. like a signal flasher... to N it seems to say, "Easy target" and to others, "Unavailable; don't waste your time".  It's not invisibility, exactly... more like irrelevance.

Sleep well.

Hope

P.S. Hops, I don't know why you're asking me this. Of course, all are free to comment at will.

[Certain Hope]

Jac,

  Considering puttin up the "do not disturb" sign ovah hee-uh     

Love you,
Hope

[Brigid]

Dear Hope and Hops,
I write this through my tears of gratitude for your kind words.  I know you both have experienced this same shift in roles and the pain connected to it.

You both asked about my comment regarding feeling guilty at not having lined up important things to do.  I guess it comes from all the years I gave more hours than I could count to leadership roles in the community and my kids' schools.  The PTA's and fundraising balls I ran, the boards I sat on, etc.; and just when I thought I could take some time off, have some fun, work in my garden and enjoy my home in the country, I found out my marriage was ending and I would have to sell my country home.  The last three years have been spent moving, readjusting, making more changes and healing.  It's time to make another major change, but I'm finding it overwhelming after all the other major changes that have taken place. 

There is no one making me feel guilty but me.  Every time someone asks me now what I do, I no longer have an answer that makes sense.  I used to be able to say that I was a stay-at-home mom, but that job has been downsized from full-time, to part-time to now that of an out-of-town consultant.  I know there are dozens of places where I could go and be a volunteer, but I have that been there, done that attitude.  I am ready to be employed again, but I don't know what it is I would like to do.  I'm stuck.

Anyway, thank you for listening and sympathyzing.  It is nice to feel that arm over my shoulder.

Love and hugs,

Brigid

[Certain Hope]

((((((((((Brigid))))))))   You're not stuck, just in the pit stop (no, not da pits)  airing up tires, checking fluid levels, and preparing to rejoin the race 

Much love,
Hope

P.S.  If you get really bored, we have a wild-eyed 15 1/2 year old who needs a place to practice driving with her new permit 

[Hopalong]

Hi Hope,
Thanks. I'm running out of steam so I'll cut and paste and hope it might be useful:

old desires to lean on someone else have been reawakened and... they're frightening.

I understand this. I think it's why I've been divorced 11 years (or is it 12, can't remember) and only now am I starting to imagine a partnership...my fear was crippling my ability to see.

I wanted to ask, what does this do to you?

Can't really blame others for not meeting our needs if we never admit that we have any, can we? I have a terrible time with this, along with a very strong "I'd rather do it myself" attitude which alternates with a silent cry of "helllpppppppppp me".

Another question I had, you mentioned "critical spirit" somewhere else...I have done that, or used to a lot. I think it occurred to me eventually that it was terror. If I always found something to criticize, I could hold my shell together. It took some horrendous pain before I realized how distorted I'd become.

I think you've had pain like that too.

And I want to wish you peace in your marriage...true peace.
(I just watched a PBS show on an adult with severe Down's Syndrome--I think it was called "The Teachings of Jon"...and I kept being fascinated by his parents. They looked like almost the happiest couple I'd ever seen.)

The Teachings of Jon follows the journey of one family, and how the “family secret” locked away in an institution for the first seven years of his life became the powerful silent teacher of kindness and reverence. 

This documentary shows what it’s really like to live with someone like Jon in heart-warming detail.  Jon’s parents, a psychiatrist and psychotherapist, share how having Jon catalyzed a complete change of values and how he taught them about good mental health.  The siblings share what it was like growing up with a brother who has severe mental retardation; how they had to learn how to communicate with him and the positive effect he has had on all of their lives. 

Though the story is told in a unique cinematic light-hearted style, The Teachings of Jon ponders the serious questions of how we value other human beings and what is truly important in life.

Hope you'll enjoy it if you get a chance to see it. It's lingering in my mind a lot.

Night,
Hops

[Plucky]

Hello all,
I am just going to piggyback on this thread with something I saw on the other thread.  PP mentioned that small talk seemed useless, or something similar.  I always thought so too, but now I think that small talk is a way to sort of take the temperature of the participants in the conversation before launching into anything too deep or exciting.

For example, if you burst out during the small talk foreplay, with some awful revelation, some wonderful news, or some space age insight, that is communicating much more than if you wait until an appropriate time in the conversation.  It could be saying that the issue is so pressing that you have to share now, or it could appear that you lack the social skills, consideration, or patience to wait until you see how the other person is feeling or what they have on their mind before spilling yours.

I think it is a good idea to give each participant in the conversation a chance to bring up a very pressing issue before launching into anything less pressing.  For example, let the other person tell you that they were laid off or their mother died, before you tell them about the horrendous traffic you endured or your new highlights.

I am only saying this after years, no decades, of ignoring social protocol because in my big head, I thought I knew better.   I have to say, that no one was worse than I on this.    No one.
a reformed
Plucky

[Plucky]

you get to see how much that person is really listening to you or if they're listening to you at all.

Yes.  I hadn't thought of that.  True!
Plucky

[Certain Hope]

Hi Plucky,

  What you've said about "small talk" makes alot of sense to me. As Pennyplant expressed, I've never felt that I was very good at it or had any appreciation of it, but from what you've said here, I can see the value of checking the temp of each person involved before initiating a deeper conversation. I'm thinking that part of my resistance to small talk in general is that it so often has appeared to me to be cliche, meaningless, phony, a shallow encounter with no substance. But thinking of it as a form of foreplay, a preliminary to what may be a potentially deeper conversation, makes good sense. If the other person appears distracted or does have some more pressing news to tell, this could be an open invitation to getting that out on the table if they feel like discussing it. And Plucky, I'd bet that I rank at least a close second on ignoring social protocol because I thought I knew better. My husband is one who really values the smaller interchanges and if I neglect them (which I tend to do), he feels neglected, so... I'm in the process of reforming over here.... thanks for the reminder!

Jac,

  Sometimes people project themselves onto you in a conversation, and they're not really relating to you at all

Bingo!
When every single contribution to a conversation is only an attempt to bring things back around to themselves, I quickly lose interest. This is an issue I've addressed on numerous occasions with my children, although it's natural in a kid to be so self-occupied. Naturally, I want to hear all of their stories and views and theories, but I've had to make a point of reminding them that it's necessary to also give time and space for the person who's listening to make a contribution. On the flip side of that, we've had plenty of opportunities to discuss the rudeness of interrupting a serious conversation between two people or a small group with something insignificant or unrelated, simply for the purpose of refocusing everyone's attention on them! I understand that children may begin to feel invisible when they're not included in adult discussion, but I'm trying to show them (particularly 10 year old son) that they don't have to have something to say about everything and they don't really disappear just because they haven't been heard from for a few minutes. I guess that's all about self-control and the ability to wait one's turn, maintain civility, and sometimes simply listen without having to comment. I know some adults who need to re-learn these same conversational guidelines and refrain from imposing their views on everyone within earshot. I am one of them  Still trying to strike a balance there and all of this is so helpful!

Hope

[Brigid]

Jac,

The best advice my therapist ever gave me is if I don't know what to do it's okay to wait until I do.  Be kind to yourself and patient.

Thanks--I'm trying to be patient, honestly I am.  I do keep thinking that the perfect thing will present itself when the time is right, BUT there is that nagging thing in the back of my mind saying "you know that only you will take care of you, and YOU must make something happen."

I always jokingly say my super hero cape is neatly folded in the top of my linen closet.  I used to do it all by myself, but now I simply won't.  It's a great relief really.

Good for you.    I think mine is currently laying in a heap on my closet floor (just in case and since I don't have a phone booth close by), but maybe it is time to put it away for good.

Hugs,

Brigid