People can tell... (for Pp)

[Plucky]

BUT there is that nagging thing in the back of my mind saying "you know that only you will take care of you, and YOU must make something happen."

Brigid,
Maybe taking care of you right now, is just giving yourself some slack.  You need some adjustment time for all the changes in your life.  You are not a machine.   You can't just adjust some levers and switch on again.
Plucky

[pennyplant]

You know, I wonder whether these others who seem to get all this support are really feeling all that supported by it?
I mean, at times I would definitely appreciate a shoulder on which to cry; but after awhile, that other part of me comes along to say, "you know what you really need even more is a kick in the pants!"  And maybe that swift kick is just as big a part of what others don't recognize is necessary at times as a comforting arm... when we appear most often to be so strong and "in charge"?
Can't really blame others for not meeting our needs if we never admit that we have any, can we? I have a terrible time with this, along with a very strong "I'd rather do it myself" attitude which alternates with a silent cry of "helllpppppppppp me". I can tell that this is going to require alot more direct talk and self-examination to sort through, but whatever it takes, it's got to be done.

Yes, CH, this is so true about "the kick in the pants".  It seems like many people stay stuck in a place that could have been "so easy" to leave behind (and it feels very unfair to say that!  Nothing is easy for anybody.  It take a long time to be able to see what the problem is before it can even be solved!).  But still so many people seem stuck.  I guess the "kick in the pants" is different for everybody.

Sometimes I feel guilty or like I'm wallowing when I let myself unburden to someone else.  Sometimes it seems obvious the other person is worn out with it.  Then it's just embarrassing.

One of the main reasons I don't ask for help very often or very well, is that history tells me the answer will be "No".  And that hurts so much for some reason!  It feels like a personal rejection.  Now it seems like it will feel like something else.  If they say "No" or the actions indicate "No" it might just be bad timing, their inability, or not my turn.  It seems like it could feel less personal somehow.  Less "just because it's me" asking.

That's a big deal.  That can change so much in my life.

And Pennyplant, there are alot of things I've never picked up on that "everyone else" seems to just "get". It's such an odd combination of insight and naivete that often leaves me bewildered. I can only think that there must be some aura that's given off.. and this was even before I became a Christian.. like a signal flasher... to N it seems to say, "Easy target" and to others, "Unavailable; don't waste your time". It's not invisibility, exactly... more like irrelevance

Yes, yes, I recognize this too.  Maybe it's not so much that other people get it, maybe it's that they don't care so much, don't worry about it so much, and so by the next day, it's a new day and they just go on relating to others from the viewpoint of "I'm Okay, You're Okay" (my mother bought a book by that title in order to learn how to deal with my sister, it didn't help!)  Maybe other people just let go of things easier.

The irrelevance.  Maybe that makes one into a target.  If you don't matter that much, then, no big deal.  That's a hard one to reason out.  I'm not mean on purpose and I don't look for people to be mean to.  So, I'm kind of feeling around in the dark here.  It seems related at any rate.

Jac said maybe it's "receptive" and "unreceptive".  That makes sense too.  Lately, I've been recognizing the unreceptive part.  Sometimes I plan to be so.  Maybe as a young person, I just couldn't handle certain things.  When I compare my peers in school and the neighborhood to Ns, I see a lot of similarities.  If I had somehow got more involved with that crowd, I suspect now that I would have found many new ways to be hurt.  A lot of not so good things were going on with some of these kids.  Maybe in my case it was good to be naive.  I certainly would have gone into it unarmed as far as any kind of social skills.  My parents taught me nothing about that, not even by example.

Yes, there's a lot here.  It's a lot to think about.  I just feel more at ease about it now.  Less inside myself.  Less frantic.  Hope that feeling lasts.

Pennyplant

[Certain Hope]

Hi Pennyplant,

  Maybe the question is... how many unburdenings (on the same topic) are there in a wallow?

I think that only those who know us best can answer that, because sometimes we are too up to our eyebrows in it all to see clearly.

The closest friends in whom I feel safe to confide are the sort in whom I can feel confident ... they won't let me roll around in the mud for too long. So that brings up the point, I think... it's important to choose carefully when seeking someone with whom to unburden? Seems vital to me that the person be someone who shares a similar belief system and world view in order to get wise counsel and a boost out of the pit when necessary.

One of the main reasons I don't ask for help very often or very well, is that history tells me the answer will be "No".  And that hurts so much for some reason!

   Pp, I am finding that when it hurts that much, it's because it's based in old stuff, not even related to what's in the here and now. I've been through some discussions recently that have revealed to me just how often there's  complete lack of foundation for my reasons for being hurt. It's amazing.
  Yes, sometimes the fact is that I'm being taken for granted or not heard, but it's not always for the reasons that I might have thought. Those reasons are founded in the past, springing from the wounds made by people who are long gone from my life. I know it still hurts .. but I am seeing that it doesn't have to hurt so much. The extra pain seems to come from old scars being stretched and pummelled, but it's like childbirth... once accomplished, the pain fades in the light of the miracle that's been wrought.

Maybe it's not so much that other people get it, maybe it's that they don't care so much, don't worry about it so much, and so by the next day, it's a new day and they just go on relating to others from the viewpoint of "I'm Okay, You're Okay"

Yes, I think so. To me, it's like they know it's all a game. In order to get along, I've found that I really need to stop taking myself so seriously   

I think it's fine and healthy to be unreceptive to some input/ stimuli... including alot of that which can come from within ourselves! Learning to change self-talk seems to be a crucial key to it all.

Instead of trying to find a way to blend in, I'm thinking it's far more desireable to give yourself permission to stand out, on your own two feet. (((((((Pennyplant))))))))  Your potential cannot be hidden; it's just raising a ruckus to be unlocked.

Love,
Hope


 

[pennyplant]

Instead of trying to find a way to blend in, I'm thinking it's far more desireable to give yourself permission to stand out, on your own two feet. (((((((Pennyplant))))))))  Your potential cannot be hidden; it's just raising a ruckus to be unlocked.

That's the part that feels good.  That's what I think can happen now that I learned the important lesson on the table talk thread.

The old scars, that's got to be what's behind the hurt feelings.  What you say makes so much sense.  With me I think it's things learned in infancy and childhood from parents who didn't want to be bothered.  It seems like I need to disengage from the old me as well as from difficult people currently in my life.

There's a lot of layers to this.

Pennyplant

[Certain Hope]

Yup, like an onion.

In fact, I'm realizing that I just uncovered another one today that is still amazing me. For 5 years or so now I've lived under the impression that I need to get my "critical spirit" under control and stop being so contrary and negative. It's just dawning on me now that I'm not really at all that way. This was one of those "tape recordings" planted within my mind by N-ex, who interpreted every attempt at discussion or suggestion of an alternate method as a criticism and further evidence of how "contrary" I am . His influence on me re-activated the ancient critical-parent tapes already in place from my mother's influence... and the vicious cycle continued. But the truth is, none of that is at all who I am. If anything, my determination to not be like my Mother caused me to swing to the exact opposite extreme... into a mode of gullible passivity and all-accepting tolerance of stuff that I should have never ever allowed. It was all projection and here I am, years later, just now seeing that.
It's frightening to realize that you've accepted so many lies over the years... lies about your what makes you worthy and valuable, lies about your own identity. They are not all defensive mechanisms, as I'd supposed when I first arrived at this forum. Some of them are simply fictions put in place by other peoples' projection and swallowed whole.

One more step toward freedom, Pennyplant.

Hope

[Certain Hope]

Thanks, Jac

 ((((((Jac))))) you are such a good friend and a wonderful cheerleader, too! 

Seriously, this has all been very unsettling. I know it's good and yet I feel a bit like an astronaut floating out in space with no tether. It's the stripping away of all the delusions and illusions. Hmm... I wonder what's the difference. You know, I just gotta go see!   

Delusion:  a : something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated b : a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs

Illusion: Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin illusion-, illusio, from Latin, action of mocking, from illudere to mock at, from in- + ludere to play, mock -- more at LUDICROUS    (ha ha)

1 a obsolete : the action of deceiving b (1) : the state or fact of being intellectually deceived or misled : MISAPPREHENSION (2) : an instance of such deception
2 a (1) : a misleading image presented to the vision (2) : something that deceives or misleads intellectually b (1) : perception of something objectively existing in such a way as to cause misinterpretation of its actual nature

OK, so I'm thinking that relating to Ns and being impacted by their NoNsense is similar to trying to drink water from a mirage pool and being left really thirsty!

Deep, huh?   

Sometimes I don't want to see any more, but I don't think selective blindness is an option.

Love,
Hope
 

[Hopalong]

Dear Hope,

I may be just re-living some childhood moments, but that's okay. (They come back for a benchmark sometimes I think.)

I have been wondering if you might be feeling offended by me in some way, because I've noticed you've more or less stopped acknowledging me. (That's why I asked if my comments were welcome a few posts back. Though you said "anyone is free to comment" you didn't reply when I then wrote to you directly...with a question and other thoughts. I feel I'm being avoided and I'm not sure why. [On edit: I got my thread references mixed up so deleted a bit....]

It's not obligatory in any way to engage with every person on the board and I can be at peace with anyone's choice. But first I thought I'd ask you if I was sensing things clearly. It might just be a misunderstanding or something I'm overlooking. Either way, I won't take it personally.

I had wondered too if I was feeling a little chill because you wrote elsewhere:

it's important to choose carefully when seeking someone with whom to unburden? Seems vital to me that the person be someone who shares a similar belief system and world view

Is it possible you decided because I don't share your belief system you'd prefer not to dialogue with me? I know sometimes people feel the need for that kind of boundary, and I'd certainly respect your wishes if that's the case.

But instead of guessing, I thought I should ask you directly, because I could have it wrong.

Thanks,
Hops

[Certain Hope]

Wow, Hops

You have taken a really in-your-face approach here.

I'll take this as an opportunity to apply some of my newfound knowledge about maintaining boundaries in relationship.

I don't like your approach.

I don't like it because I feel that you have put my back  against the wall in the public square to force me to take a stand.

I also don't like it because you say:
I may be just re-living some childhood moments, but that's okay.

I disagree. I don't think it's at all ok to involve an innocent bystander in your reliving of childhood. What I hear you saying is, it's ok for me to back you into a corner because I might discover a benchmark and that would make it all worthwhile

And all of this because I did not respond to one post which you directed at me?

You know, not everyone to whom I post responds, but I don't think anything of it, nor do I post a reply to everyone who comments on one of the threads I initiate... or any thread, for that matter. I figure that people are like me... busy, taking in alot of info and choosing to comment on that which most impacts them... all normal stuff, part of engaging in a forum such as this. I don't feel like I need to have something to say about every single post that's made here. If I tried to do that, I'd be spouting alot of hot air for sure, because sometimes a topic simply doesn't "grab" me. If I can't respond from sincere interest, from my heart, I'll pass.

That being said, I'll attempt to explain what happened on this thread. When I saw your reply #4, I didn't know why you were asking me whether you could comment on this thread. I said exactly that in my reply #6.

 I also didn't know exactly what you were asking in your reply #4, because I hadn't yet noticed that you'd already posted a response on the thread to Brigid (your reply #3). (I view the replies in reverse order and missed that one.) When I saw that you then posted another reply, directed toward me (#11), I realized that what you'd been asking all along was... did I personally want you to comment to me.  I found that very odd. Because I found it odd (and still do) and felt that I had really been "put on the spot", I chose not to respond. I still believe that was a wise choice, because this feels to me like a very invasive, pushy sort of maneuver and, as I said, I don't like it.

There is, however, one thing you've said which I must address:
 
Quote:  Is it possible you decided because I don't share your belief system you'd prefer not to dialogue with me? I know sometimes people feel the need for that kind of boundary, and I'd certainly respect your wishes if that's the case.

Well, in your reply #4, you said, I wanted to ask you if my questions are welcome, if you'd like a comment from me...
(if not please know that I am not going to take offense   and yet... when you received no response... you put me on the spot again? Sounds to me like you did take offense and showed little respect for my wishes, so... what's next?  If you show that no matter what you say, you will turn around and do the opposite, what do you suppose the effect of that might be? That's a rhetoircal question, by the way.
 
Also, it appears to me that you are suggesting that I'm burdened with some sort of religious prejudice based on one fact...
                    I didn't respond to one of your posts to me.
I find that..... amazing. I have drawn no such boundary. In fact, I've dialogued freely with many people here of various beliefs and gotten along well. But now, because you've suggested that I may be a religious bigot, should I be forced to defend myself against a bogus insinuation? I don't think so.

I hope that this will clarify in your mind my position and my boundaries, Hops. No offense taken by me... just trying to be clear.

Hope

[Hopalong]

Dear Hope,

I'm sorry. My post was foolish and unecessary and I understand why it felt pushy. It was. You have every right to not respond and to not like someone. (That's my old tape.)

I know you're not a bigot. I apologize for the inference.

I hope you have a happy, peaceful Sunday.

In peace,
Hops

[Certain Hope]

Thanks, Hops.

Apology accepted.

I really don't dislike you, either.

Peace.

Hope