Is Guilt an Appropriate Feeling?

[Overcomer]

Hops:  Yes, my anger has been brewing for years and years and years.................the day-in-and-day-out drudgery that I have to endure just makes it worse.  No, she wouldn't "let" me divorce husband #1....(finally someone else gave me permission!!).....then I started dating a man who proved to be an alcoholic = bad news............................so I tried to get away from him but she was in the midst of "fixing" him like she did to husband #1....................that is when I went off the deep end...............pretty much fell into a deep depression AFTER my rage!!!  Told her she needed to choose between him and me = well, guess whose needs she chose to take care of???  She was worried about hurting him.  Well, I was so betrayed and wounded that there isn't anything the woman could do short of handing me a million dollars that would allow me to forgive, forget, and deal with her.....problem is, she just keeps on wounding me...................time and time again................and she just doesn't see it.  She calls me unstable.  She calls my righteous indignation spiraling out of control.

I just cannot stand the woman................I guess it shows!

[Hopalong]

((((((Kelly)))))))

You know, my daughter raged at me quite viciously a few months back and it hurt so much I thought I would never recover and there would never ever be a shred of love from her again.

She really was wrong.

I raged at MY mother (right down the matriarchal line, our struggles have gone) less than a year ago. She was 95. I felt so awful at some of the things I said and the way I said them...even though I felt justified. Or "right".

Tonight I was walking with a friend and found myself saying to her, you know, if this much anger was necessary for my D to differentiate herself, to break free from being too enmeshed and close to me...even though I thought it was cruel, if it had to happen...I'd rather she got it out of her system at age 25, instead of stuffing it until she was 55 years old the way I did.

Maybe, in some way, at some point, with the counselor's help, that anger can be released without further harm...and you'll be released from it. It's poisoning you, but I know exploding with it would damage you too.

I am so so glad you and she are going to the counselor. Not because it's magic, but because it's sane.

I think you're going to find your way, Kelly. There is more hope for peace of heart than you can see now.

Hops

[Overcomer]

Hops:  Why did your daughter rage at you?  Were you too enmeshed?  Are you a controlling, narcissistic woman?  The only reason I say this is because I wouldn't have raged at my nmom if she hadn't been so intrusive in my life that it got completely unbearable!!

I just pulled a book off my shelf called "Deadly Emotions" and it is a book about how anger and resentment and unforgiveness can cause disease.  I guess that is my one fear in life is that eventually my body will come down with some horrible disease because I live daily with all of this anger and resentment.  Problem is, by being with my nmom every day I cannot get away from her.  Every single thing she does to me are like straws that break the camel's back.................alone the infractions are not that bad, but put them on top of a lifetime of disapproval and control, they just freak me out and make me go off the deep end!!!

I live my life with this feeling of anticipation - I anticipate that something will happen - SOON!~!  I don't know what and maybe that is what helps me live daily - knowing that someday, somehow this life I live will break free from my nmom!!  My hope and dream!

[Hopalong]

Kelly:
Yes. We were enmeshed and I was controlling (never cruel, but I didn't see how my "help" was controlling.) I was overprotective. We were so close, most of the time so happily, I didn't see that we were TOO close.

And most of all, she resented my moving in with NMom, because NMom always comes first and it put such a crimp in my daughter's access to me. We danced around my mother's braying to be the center of attention. I think in some ways her blowing up had a lot to do with my mother, too. But she is afraid to confront her grandmother. (A T once told me a child tends to express anger at the parent she feels safest with. She never confronted her father, and now he's dead, so I think all her anger came out at me.)

I am not a narcissist. I do have narcissistic behaviors at times (N-spots). I catch myself in them. Loathe it. But I have learned and trust my T...they are not who I am. They're more like old creepy symptoms that I learned from contagion. But at a core level, I have empathy and compassion.

For you too. A lot. (I hope you didn't think me saying my daughter was wrong to rage at me was a dig at you because of your anger. Nooooo. I believe that chronic anger is hurting you, but emotions just "are". They do not have to be justified, they are not "right" or "wrong.") I meant, about my daughter, that what she chose to say to me was wrong. It just hurt me too much. I didn't deserve it. (Who does?) You can read the history on the Losing My Daughter's Love thread. (Fortunately, I have found out I didn't.)

I know I raged at my NMom too because it was a last-straw and more than I could bear. It all came out.

Hops

[gratitude28]

Kelly,
You are only hurting yourself with your anger... that's what worries me about you. Do you think your mom cares if you are angry with her? Honestly, I think my mom enjoys it when she can make me flash in anger. She tried it all summer and it worked only once, but she was so gleeful about ticking me off that time.
Kelly, I know you probably don't have my problem of drinking and the compulsive behaviors that go with it, but the 12 steps are a kind way to look at life which give you a break and tools to deal with life all at the same time. You might try reading "A Woman's Way Through The 12 Steps." It helps you examine everything that is causing you anger in your life and really hold it and sift it through your fingers and then get rid of it.
I just hate to see you hurting yourself all the time. And I really think that your anger doesn't do any more than eat you alive... of course it can make you sick, but even if it doesn't, you can't have peace until you banish it. And the anger WON'T CHANGE ANYTHING.
Love to you Kelly,
Beth

[Overcomer]

HERE'S THE DEAL!!  CAN YOU GUYS TELL I AM ANGRY!!!!   YES, I AM ANGRY AND YES, IT IS GOING TO MAKE ME CRAZY!!

I'VE GOT TO STOP THIS RESENTMENT AND ANGER AND HATE!!!

I know what the counselor is going to say, "You can't change your mother and you have to decide what you are going to do to change the way you respond to your mother......blabade blah blah blah.........."

I just want to run away as fast as I can from this woman.  And while I am on a rant, I am thinking about drop kicking my husband as well.  We got invited to my daughter's boyfriend's parent's house yesterday and he didn't want to come.  Why?  Because he doesn't know them and it would be too nerve wracking for him so he made some lame excuse about having some yard work to do.  When I got remarried I thought I might get a relationship - but I am still a single parent....................

[Hops]

((((((((((Kelly)))))))))))

When I was raging at my 95 y/o Nmother not too long ago, one outburst that had her shaking in her socks and me absolutely horrified at myself...allllllllll those feelings of hurt abandonment betrayal total frustration at her blind N-ness not protecting me from my brother, urging me to marry too soon, other classic things (both for her generation and from her unique personal damage)...

Something happened. And that was I went upstairs to my bathroom and suddenly began to sob with a kind of sob that came out of the base of my spine and racked my body. It was overwhelming. Far beyond a simple "cry."

Hon, I think you need to cry. Underneath anger, which is the surface layer, is always hurt or fear. You may have both.

And I am so, so sorry that your mother doesn't know how to take you in her arms and be so sorry, and truly comfort you....

Please accept these words as my effort to truly wrap my arms around you and let you cry until the hate is gone. You'll feel bruised and drained afterward, but better.

I promise you.

love,
Hops

[Overcomer]

Thanks Hops!!  That was so nice!!  I have cried and I know what you mean, this coming from the base of your innards...........almost a whailing (sp?) cry.........It is just so useless.  I have dealt with this for so many years...............last week when I was talking with her and we stayed mighty cordial, I said to her, "give me a brick wall and let me hit my head on it."  I mean, it has almost become comical.  She says things that are so - I DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO DESCRIBE THEM WITH WORDS........"  Here's one.  She said, "I never had a problem with the bookkeeper until you said, "I think you have a problem with the bookkeeper.""  "You spoke it into existence - now I have a problem with the bookkeeper." 

DOES ANYONE ELSE THINK THAT IS AN ABSURD STATEMENT???  She didn't have a problem with her until I said I think she has a problem with her and NOW she has a problem with her?  That's always what happens.  Somehow I am the cause of the problems.  It's crazy making.  So someone once told me to imagine her all dressed up like Minnie Mouse.  Big Ears.  A big black nose.  And when she talks, imagine her with that squeaky voice - just like Minnie Mouses..............."I didn't have a problem with her until you said I think you have a problem with her.............."  "Oh, Mickey, that Kelly!!"

Cry?  No, I think I need to laugh.  Maniacal laughter!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, the good news is one of my contacts called me today and is interested in my business...............one more person signed up, one less month I have to deal with all this CRAP!

[Certain Hope]

Oh, my, Kelly.... LOL ... I am definitely gonna try that Minnie Mouse routine.... LOL

((((((((((Kelly)))))))))))

Maniacal laughter sounds a whole lot better than the alternative!

Love,
Hope

[gratitude28]

OK, Kelly, I was thinking about you and your situation and what a puzzle it is... and I realized something. I am going to be forward here...
I think you are angry at yourself. I think that is why you are unable to shake the anger. I think maybe you are angry that you have let yourself be walked over, stayed in a bad situation, sought out the wrong relationships, and so on.You are lashing out because it hurts too much to take it out on yourself.
Is this possible? Is this hogwash?
Something to think about. It kind of came out of nowhere yesterday and I was thinking I needed to tell you.
Love, Beth

[Overcomer]

Hope, Beth and Hops:  You all three have been very supportive.  For that I thank you.  And yes, maybe it is me I am angry with.  I have made poor relationship choices over and over and over again.  I wonder why I am in another relationship with a man who has addictions.  He told me when we met (online) that he didn't drink.  And on our first few dates, he didn't.  Then suddenly he became a raging alcoholic.  I called his exwife and asked her if he had a problem with alcohol, she said yes.  So again, here I go.  Another man who (if we give her an inch..........) my nmom will try to "fix."  Maybe what I do is expose him.  Finally "tell on him" and she jumps in and tries to save him!!!  Same story third chapter...................I cannot let that happen!!  But at the same time, do I stay with him?  Every weekend (starting Thursday) he drinks.  Thursday, Friday and all day Saturday - every week......

But anyway.............so there is this dynamic with nmom and me and it keeps repeating itself.  And yes, I am so mad at myself for not having enough self worth to choose my men more carefully.  To have gone to college at a young age and became a professional so I could have made enough money to live on without the help from my nmom.  Or if I would have met and married one of those doctors whose building I lived in (me and my friend lived right across the street from a D.O. University........)

I am tired.  Tired of making poor choices.  Tired of living with those poor choices.  And I knew WAY before we bought this business that I did not like working with my mom.  She drove me crazy in high school when I did a little secretarial work for her - that was 28 years ago!!  Why didn't I listen to my internal ear??  I even tried to do the in-home party plan business that she was so successful at.  But that was HER thing not mine.  So why did I try to do it?  To set myself up for failure?

And now, I am finally better at something than she is - but she owns more stock in the company so I have to watch her make poor business decisions on a daily basis.  Yesterday she asked me to show her how to attach something to an email.  Where has she been all these years??  On the phone self promoting - but I just wonder why in the world she would self promote to do something she doesn't have a clue about.  Why would you put yourself into a position that you could be made to look the fool???  I don't get it.

Thanks for all the warm and insightful responses.  I am going to get myself out of this - I AM.  It is only a matter of time....

[Certain Hope]

((((((((Kelly))))))))) 

  Sounds like you've made some very impulsive decisions. I have, too, and I think mostly they've been driven by doubt and fear.
All of those tormenting questions of why and when and how seem to get magically answered by jumping in with both feet ... but the quick-fix leads to dozens of other problems. Then the regrets... that's a whole other ballgame.

  Maybe the thing to do right now is to work on that impulsivity by focusing attention a bit farther down the road. If we can simmer down long enough to set a longer range plan (even just one year ahead) and work toward a goal (even a very small one) in small steps....  I know, it seems like a very large "if" to me, too, but I think it's worth a shot. Kinda like getting down to brass tacks with a vengeance, allowing some of these present annoyances to simply flutter by overhead. Sounds good to me!!
*Note:  key to this for you, I think, is leaving mom out of the plan in your mind. Include no trace of her potential antics in the picture.

Love,
Hope

P.S.  How long have you been married, Kelly?

 

[Overcomer]

You are right.  I have been married four years.  If and when I decide that I have had it with husband (maybe, maybe not...........)  I shouldn't let nmom in on any of it.  If I do not want to walk right into another situation.  So my ducks have to be in a row before I do ANYTHING.  I cannot allow my mom to be a part of any decision........

[Sela]

Hi all:

Something, I think it was Beth wrote, really struck me:

normal people don't try to hurt and belittle their "loved ones."

That says so much, I think.  Maybe it can be used as a kind of indicator or scale or something.  If one is feeling the desire/urge to hurt or belittle others, maybe that could warn one that something is abnormal (inside oneself) and that one needs some inner attention??  And if one is feeling hurt and belitted after an encounter with another, maybe that other isn't behaving quite like a "normal" person would?

I wonder if your anger, Kelly, is also a response to your frustration.  It just sounds like it must be so frustrating for you.....to be in such close contact with your mother, whom you really don't like right now, and having to tolerate her "power" in the situation, her crazy making behaviour, along with contending with an alcoholic husband and all the feelings that arise when coming to grips with that reality.

I also wonder if Alanon might be a place for you to seek support (for learning ways to live without reacting to your husband's frustrating behaviour until you can take further steps/should you decide you want to......sort of a temporary thing to help you along this difficult path)???  In addition to the counselling thingy with your mom?  Kind of taking action to promote change re both areas of difficulty might be something helpful?

I also wonder if your anger might actually be a driving force for you right now and not such a horrible thing.  It's better than feeling hurt and helpless, maybe, because it gets you thinking of a way out......of ways to find solutions.....etc???  You've done a fantastic job of expressing yourself here and reaching out for support!!  Keep doing that!!  It's gotta help.

(((((((((kelly))))))))))

Sela

 On edit re guilt:

Is it possible that you feel a bit guilty when you react badly to the crazy making behaivour of your mother/husband?  If that is happening then that guilt is probably a good/very appropriate feeling (which ya....feelings are neither good nor bad, appropriate nor not, except....yep.....sometimes feelings are waaaaaaay off kilter or too extreme for our liking or just don't seem to be the crux of what's really bugging us and maybe even part of the problem....so it's ok to sometimes think of some feelings as being either appropriate or not, imo).    Anyway, what I'm getting at is if the guilt you are feelings is actually because of stuff you've said/done that is really not your best ....then maybe it's a good thingy that will help you look for better ways to speak/behave/react differently/not react in future??

I've always believed guilt has value because it's supposed to teach us the boundaries of acceptable behaviour.  When it becomes a problem, though, might be just before it becomes overwelming or disabling.  Once it gets to that point.....it's doing more harm than good eh?

[Overcomer]

Sela:  Some very good points you make.  If I can channel my anger into something positive, then I agree, it can be a catalyst for change.  I must never go to my mom for a way out with husband.  It's funny you mentioned that Al-anon thing - when I called his ex (which was really weird, but I didn't know who else to go to besides someone who had walked in my shoes..........trying to protect his disease from his parents/friends...) she suggested I go to al-anon.  The thing with both my husband AND my mom is that I want to expose them.  I have always heard about the Dysfunctional Family Rules and one of the most important rules is to NOT tell.  So it is my goal to "tell."  I do not want to keep the family secrets.  We were talking to my 91 year old grandmother who was asked to write up a biography.  We were discussing it and both my mom and aunt said she shouldn't mention she had divorced my grandfather.....................I said, "Why don't you say something like grandfather was a jerk so you divorced him?????????????"  Of course, this would break that rule of not telling.  Boy, I really was raised in a totally dysfunctional family.  They wouldn't hear of "airing their dirty laundry" for all the world to see......................it is pretty funny when I step back and watch the dynamics between them all.......

Maybe my anger IS helping me to move forward....................I was talking to one of the gals at work today.  She has over 17 years experience in my industry.  She said something very telling to me...................she said, "You know what you are doing.  I wouldn't have said that a few years ago but you have come along way and you really know what you are doing...your mother, on the other hand.............."  Enough said..................I know it is true and I think that is why I can finally sit back and watch and just shake my head!!

And I wonder how my husband would appreciate me going to al-anon???  Especially if ANYBODY found out!!  Last weekend he got drunk and was ranting and raving so I pulled out my phone and started videotaping........you should have seen how nice he became.  I told him I was using it for blackmail!!!

Oh, life is weird.  It is fun to know I am starting to figure it out.  Hopefully I am not one of the people who intentionally hurts others.  Although I have to admit that a lot of times I want to discredit by mother...........something about feeling vindicated after all these years.l