Author Topic: Strange Behavior - Could she be an N?  (Read 3238 times)

Gaining Strength

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Strange Behavior - Could she be an N?
« on: August 29, 2006, 02:31:25 PM »
I personally diagnosed my father with NPD. A pshchologist diagnosed my mother as having Narcissistic Traits and now I'm starting to think that NPD or some variety or Narcissism fits my mother's younger sister.  I'ld love some feedback. 

My aunt has always demanded that she be the center of attention.  But she has also been a social misfit, unable to have a normal conversation.  She is presently hospitalized with end stages of lymphoma diagnosed only two weeks ago.

Just as a small sliver of her behavior - My mother's youngest sister flew 800 miles to come see my aunt in the hospital.  On the third day, my child and I and visiting aunt went to see her.  As soon as we walked in her room, she began berating her younger sister because a cousin had invited her out to dinner.  She started yelling at her to go leave and fly back to D.C. Foolishly, I intervened and reminded her that her sister had come to town solely for the purpose of seeing her.  She continued ranting and railing until my younger aunt finally left.

Then she began ordering her private nurse to do things for her, including feed her.  When the aide came to get her tray my aunt told her to leave.  As soon as she left my aunt told her private urse to go get thee aide to take the tray.  Whenthe aide came back and asked if my aunt was finished with the tray she said, "NO." And then one by one had her nurse take each item off the tray until only the empty plate was left - which she then let the aide take.

Almost immediately a phone began to ring.  "My aunt started insisting to her nurse, "Give me the phone, it's ringing." and the nurse said, "that's my phone." "Give me the phone it's ringing." "It's my phone ringing."  "I siad give me the phone it's ringing."  But wisely, the nurse just answered her cell phone and tole the person on the line that she couldn't talk at the moment.

This is just a timy example of what it's life being with her.  It is indescribably horrendous.  Noone else exists but her except in order to serve her.  Zero empathy.  No concern for anyone else in any manner.  She talks over anyone in the same room and if she's in public she creates a scene by talking extremely loudly or by throwing a tantrum.  She also does not know fact from fiction.  She will just make stuff up to contradict whatever is said.  EX.  When I described to her the maze of buildings I had come through to get to her hospital wing she told me I was wrong and then "explained" to me how I had gotten to her room.

{for some wacky reason I thought she might change on her death bed.  Boy was that magical thinking.}

Is the NPD or some other wacked out disorder?

It is all so crazy that I feel nuts just writing about it.  She is so odd that any hyman she encounters knows something's wrong with her.  My father on the other hand used to appear normal but has deteriorated into an (state of being seen as "eccentric."  But that's a whole other story.

Slipping a little - (was) gaining strength

PS - I know this is long, and I apoligize.  I hopes someone replies. Just give me a little thread to tether me to reality.


Certain Hope

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Re: Strange Behavior - Could she be an N?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2006, 04:14:52 PM »
Hi Gaining Strength.

  Your aunt sounds very much like mine... my mother's only sister, younger than she by 2 years. She passed away last year, also of lymphoma.

  She generally treated my mother with deference, but their younger brother she had no use for and would rail against him whenever they were forced to be in contact, much like what you describe here. Her last opportunity to badger my uncle came at my grandmother's funeral about 5 years ago. He made the mistake of attempting to support her by reaching for her elbow, while walking across the cemetary grass. (She'd had hip replacement quite some time before but was appearing especially wobbly that day.) Well, she became enraged and hauled off and swung her purse at him, hitting him in the side of the head, and then cursed loudly at him (nobody in my family used such language, so this definitely added to the insane appearance of her whole drama).

I don't know whether dementia is a diagnosed part of your aunt's current condition, but it certainly sounds like there may be some involved. On the other hand, my aunt was infamous for ordering around any service-personnel, in any context, and was always impossible to please in the 40-some years I'd known her. I could write for hours about her eccentricities and the many ways she brought havoc into the lives of anyone who tried to be near her. Having read as much as I have now, I've concluded for myself that she suffered from Borderline Personality Disorder with strong N traits, not to mention being neurotic to the extreme, a hypochondriac, obsessive compulsive, and just generally miserable. But you know... whatever she/ they are... I think the main thing for you (us) is to not get dragged into the lie. We are not cursed to turn out like these people in our families, GS. Don't let that thought take root in your thinking, because it's absolutely not so. The Spirit alone has power to break the power of genetics along with any other chains that bind and I think you know that. Hang onto that truth for dear life.

With much love,
Hope

Gaining Strength

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Re: Strange Behavior - Could she be an N?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2006, 05:17:40 PM »
The Spirit alone has power to break the power of genetics along with any other chains that bind and I think you know that. Hang onto that truth for dear life.

LOL! Certain Hope, I certainly am holding on to that truth for dear life

Believe it or not - there is no dementia.  She has acted like that her whole life.  My grandfather was a nationally prominent attorney, a name partner of one of the largest and oldest firms in our state.  Twenty years ago when law school students "clerked" for law firms, my grandfather would have various clerks to Sunday lunch at the country club and he would always take my aunt as well.  EVERY SINGLE TIME she would cause a scene and throw a tantrum at the table, loud enough to be heard throughout the entire dining room.  Why my grandfather would do that to anyone is beyond any of us. 

I tell you this just as a strong suggestion that none of this is new or illness related. 

Perhaps she is BPD rather than NPD.  It's difficult to figure out.

Thanks so much for responding.  It is hard to describe how strengthening it is to have someone hear me.  The voicelessness of my family life experience leaves me profoundly touched almost amazed when someone hears and acknowledges me.

Ever - Gaining Strength

Stormchild

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Re: Strange Behavior - Could she be an N?
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2006, 07:53:43 PM »
GS, there is no need to apologize for the length of your post - it's exactly as long as it needs to be to explain what you're trying to get across!

I'm coming in to this awfully late, and I apologize. I've been back to reread some of your first posts after reading this one - and I found what I thought I remembered. I am amazed that you survived your family of origin at all. Your father is one of the most abusive people I've ever heard of. And your grandfather, who used your aunt to ruin Sunday lunches for the law clerks routinely, must have been an unbelievably hostile man. At least, I hope that is what it was, because if he brought her to those lunches in the expectation of matchmaking for her, then he must have been floridly psychotic... at least, on Sundays, at lunchtime.

It's entirely possible for someone to be N and borderline at the same time. Your aunt sounds like one of the most extreme Ns I have ever heard described; literally nobody and nothing exists besides her, and everything that exists exists for her to use. My mother, as she aged, became that way.

It's not necessarily genetic. Even though you have a double-whammy family history - horrendous Nism and other awfulness, on both sides - that doesn't mean you are preprogrammed to go the same way. Your insight, your reasoning abilities, your understanding of the importance of memory in dealing with and understanding these things - none of that is N, none of it could ever become N...

Your fight, I suspect, will be [is now?] with the depression that comes with awareness. All I can say about that is that you will need to be careful in your choice of counselor... because cognitive therapy [which you are doing for yourself, it sounds like] works well as long as the counselor is doing appropriate reality testing. People who have survived things like Darfur have bleak outlooks and low opinions of humanity for a very good reason, and merely trying to retrain their thoughts to more cheerful frequencies requires a denial of their history, a denial of their truth, a denial of reality that is in itself risky. It's possible to survive Darfur and ultimately be able to laugh and play again, but it's the laughter and playfulness of the thankful escapee, who has faced, accepted, and transcended his/her past.

Have you read, has anyone here recommended to you, Viktor Frankl's book Man's Search for Meaning? He survived Auschwitz, which killed his bride... and afterwards, he lived again, married again, throve. Because he found the way to take meaning from his suffering... that is what you are doing... I applaud you, I admire you, I respect you like mad.

Hugs, if you're comfortable with them; light and strength, too.
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

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Hopalong

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Re: Strange Behavior - Could she be an N?
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2006, 08:34:54 PM »
Stormy,
I feel so fortunate to be able to read your wisdom.
You have great depth and thoughtfulness and focus and insight.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Gaining Strength

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Re: Strange Behavior - Could she be an N?
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2006, 01:26:10 AM »
Stormchild - I have certainly dealt with depression.  When I finally began treating my depression I realized that I had been depressed my entire life. 

I think I get your point about the razor's edge between positive thinking and denying experience.  I am familiar with but haven't read Fankl's work but I will pick it up on your recommendation.

Gaining Strength

reallyME

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Re: Strange Behavior - Could she be an N?
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2006, 08:30:22 AM »
Has anyone ever seen the movie "The Devil Wears Prada"?  I saw it last night.

Meryl Streep plays a very conceited fashion designer, who tries to shape Anne Hathaway's character into exactly what SHE wants her to be.  Streep's character, "Miranda" seems like an N to me.  What do the rest of you think who have seen that movie?

I believe that the more examples of N'ism we share on this board, the more commonly recognized it will become and the easier to deal with our own "counterattacks" on the abusers of this world.

~Laura

Stormchild

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Re: Strange Behavior - Could she be an N?
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2006, 08:45:37 AM »
Quote
I have certainly dealt with depression.  When I finally began treating my depression I realized that I had been depressed my entire life. 

I think I get your point about the razor's edge between positive thinking and denying experience.

It is definitely a razor's edge, but in the right light, it's a bright line...

Best of luck, Gaining Strength. Here's a 'mantra' for you which a friend of mine, who knows people who treat PTSD survivors, gave me once upon a time when I was dealing with fierce exogenous depression [aka situational depression, as opposed to endogenous depression, which results from internal chemical imbalances of different types].

It doesn't provide an excuse; it provides an explanation, and something to cling to while riding out the storm.

Exogenous Depression [or PTSD] is a normal response to abnormal circumstances.
Exogenous Depression [or PTSD] may be the only sane response to an insane situation.
Exogenous Depression [or PTSD] is nothing to be ashamed of. It is something to understand, and to heal from.

There is a difference between exogenous and endogenous depression - not all counselors are taught this or understand it. One's situation CAN depress or kill. The idea that we freely choose our immediate responses in every circumstance isn't wholly valid. Some things that happen to people - not only in times of civil unrest, but in everyday homes and offices - are, simply, awful, and to respond to them instantly with joy or thanks, or even equanimity[!] would be, simply, insane.

It's so important to know the difference between exogenous and endogenous depression. If your depression is mostly exogenous, which I suspect from your history, understanding that history will help you to escape from it - and to reprogram yourself properly, based on the brainwashing you received, without denying the truth of what happened to you. It's so important not to shame yourself, or have others shaming you, for responding in the most constructive way available [at the time] to an awful set of circumstances that you couldn't fully understand when they were unfolding.

We can make our long-term responses more constructive and self-preserving; we can learn to see present and future traps [N people, N groups, N organizations setting out bait] before they spring, and evade them. As children, or as unaware adults, we couldn't do that - all we could do was protect our hearts as much as possible, once we were trapped, by curling up around them... aka, exogenous depression.

Time is the dimension of healing. Thank God we have it. I wish you all the best with this - as a fellow traveler on the same road.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2006, 08:50:53 AM by Stormchild »
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

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Certain Hope

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Re: Strange Behavior - Could she be an N?
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2006, 09:10:39 AM »
Stormy,

  Is it true that situational depression, if it lingers, can actually create chemical changes in the brain and thereby morph into this enodgenous form of depression which might require medication to correct?

Love,
Hope

Stormchild

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Re: Strange Behavior - Could she be an N?
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2006, 09:36:34 AM »
Yes, absolutely. In fact, that's part of why it's such a razor edge. Meds are useful for dealing with both types. The difference, though, is that when it's exogenous only, the meds are useful mainly to get you out of the rut, and put a floor under you, short term.

And that's no longer such a big difference. Recent studies have shown that over time, some people with endogenous depression - whether inborn or induced! - are literally HEALED by the medications. Their brain chemistry is actually CORRECTED. Which means they can also be weaned from the meds and remain stable thereafter. [edit in: should be done with a cooperative, i.e. open minded, doctor, because you may need to go back on or re-increase the dose if it's too soon, or if your particular chemistry doesn't respond this way. Many doctors just put people on meds and then 'shelve' them, mentally, so it's important to find an open minded one.]

This is also turning out to be true for PTSD, for some people.

The razor edge problem is this: in the harrowing situation, you are being fed messages - programmed not to resist, one way or another. If you are in a literal Darfur, then there is literally no escape without great risk, and virtually nothing is truly within your control. That is a true message. If you are in a domestic abuse situation, you may well be just as trapped, until you can begin to work out - at great risk - some plans for escape; but it's more like a slave trying to reach the Underground Railroad, than it is like a fed up employee with a year's salary banked as a cushion, strolling out the door with a wave of one finger, to start her own business.

These messages of entrapment and defeat are true in context; the antidote isn't to refuse to believe them, but to decide never again to be trapped in the same way. In similar future entrapments, these messages would be true again. That is why it is so important to look at them and learn from them, not only to overwrite them. You do need to be counterprogrammed, but strategically! You need to remember what the traps look like, how they smell, so that you don't just cheerful yourself right back into one. Because there are traps, and they are real.

Balance. On one side, inappropriate gloom and doom. On the other side, unrealistically rosy thinking. In the middle, a narrow but navigable valley - the path through reality, with light and dark, warmth and cold, joy and tears, and a whole real world to explore.

edit in: I know whereof I speak. I was on an SSRI for a year. Supersensitive to it, so I never went above the lowest, theoretically not effective, starter dose. Ineffective hah. My affect flatlined, and I came off it because I wanted to feel love surging through me when I held my animals in my arms [I believe they deserved to feel and smell that chemical change, it wasn't just for me]. When I titrated off entirely, lo and behold: the outlook, the awareness, was still there, and some things brought me down, but I no longer pitched a tent there and set up base camp. The induced endogenous component was gone.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2006, 09:42:16 AM by Stormchild »
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

http://galewarnings.blogspot.com

http://strangemercy.blogspot.com

http://potemkinsoffice.blogspot.com

Certain Hope

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Re: Strange Behavior - Could she be an N?
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2006, 10:02:01 AM »
Thanks, Stormy, for the great and thorough explanation. I did manage to "cheerful" myself back into another trap, minus drugs and therapy, although I'd say that "hope" can have the effect of a drug, especially when that hope is wrongly placed. I willingly fell under the spell of N/Psycho when I swallowed a megadose of false hope and believed that he was to be my saviour from all that with which I'd been unrighteously burdened. Hah. Talk about darkness masquerading as an angel of light! Anyhow, thanks. I can definitely see the need to pay close heed to the markings of that narrow path through reality... all in balance.

Love,
Hope

Gaining Strength

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Re: Strange Behavior - Could she be an N?
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2006, 09:56:52 AM »
I am hoping to gain the courage to ask my aunt for her car.  She is no longer able to use it and my clunker has over 140,000 miles.  I am terribly afraid to ask.  I don't know why I'm afraid.  All she can say is, "No."  But it is the rejection.  The being left out of the wealth of my family.  This rejection is the sense that I must let go of.  For me, growing up in a family of Ns means that I am not welcome, not loved, not honored.  And I must open my wounds to receive what I need for healing.  It is such a difficult process, difficult and lonely.

GS

Gaining Strength

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Re: Strange Behavior - Could she be an N?
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2006, 11:40:34 PM »
tt
Thanks for using extreme language like Dafur.  I don't have the courage but it truly is as horrific as that. 

My husband died on 7-11-01. That was 9-11 for me.  But like the Dafur analogy, I suffered 7-11 all alone.

Thanks for your courage - GS