Excessive Idealism

[Certain Hope]

Hi,

 In examining some of the various false selves which are part of my own personallity (thanks again, Jac ) I'm seeing that there's a strong emphasis on idealism which needs to be tempered. Part of recovering from perfectionism has required a relaxation of standards on my part, mainly the impossible standards to which I'd previously held myself, but I'd never really considered idealism as something which can be excessive. It always seemed to me to be a wonderfully grand thing to maintain such high ideals and always aim for the very best. Thanks to an article I read recently, I can see the damaging effects of such extreme idealism, including how it can be used as a means of controlling others.

I'm copying this here a bit out of order, because I was so struck by the examples of irrational thoughts which lie behind what is termed here "Over-Idealism". I have thought these things and can see that I'll really have to work on clearing up some wrong thinking in order to get this particular expression of "self" to behave 

What irrational thinking results in over-idealism?

They should know what they are supposed to do.

Life should be perfectly in line with what has been promised when we were encouraged to live a good life, work hard, and treat others fairly.

The goals of the organization should always be the goals of every member of the organization.

We should always act, think, and feel like everyone else who is a member of this group, family, school, work site, church, or community.

It should be easy to make friends in a situation which I have freely chosen to join because everyone in the situation should be just like me.

They should be as committed to this goal, job, or target behavior as I am.

Everyone should be as sincere, trustworthy, and honest in their dealings with me as I am with them.

If I have been willing to make these sacrifices for them, they should show their appreciation to me for this.

They should work as hard as I do.

They should be as generous, giving, and caring as I am.

They should know how I feel about them, what I want from them, and what I need in my life.

They should appreciate me for what I do around here.

People should be nice to one another around here if we are going to be successful.

Everybody should fit in with everybody else around here in order for us to reach our goals.

Arguments, disagreements, and differences of opinions should not occur around here.

Everybody should be as clear and precise about our goals here as I am.

If I am here for you, you should be here for me.

You should respect my work just like I respect yours.

They should only hire, appoint, or select people for this job, task, or responsibility who are appropriate.

Everybody should put in an honest day's work for an honest day's wage.

I should do everything perfectly in order to meet my standards so as to encourage others to follow my example.


What are the negative effects of being overly idealistic?

If you continue to be overly idealistic, then you could:

Experience poor adjustment at school, on the job, or in the community because you could become identified as a "gadfly,'' "rebel,'' or a person with a "chip on your shoulder.''

Have problems and get in trouble with authority figures who are not functioning in a way you believe correct and you've let them know this.

Become very depressed, despondent and despair over how imperfect life is at home, school, work, or in the community.

Find it difficult to fully accept anyone the way they really are and chronically attempt to control them so that they can become the way they "should ideally be.''

Resent any attempts to help you recognize the rational, pragmatic, and political strategies for coping with a "less than perfect or ideal'' life.

Find that your tenure is short on any job with a boss and, after a series of job failures, you might need to seek a job where you can be your own boss and not have to deal with less than ideal bosses or employees.

Become so hypercritical and controlling over all of the people in your life that they shy away and become more distant and cool with you.

Become the fall guy or scapegoat for any problems or trouble in the system at home, school, work, or in the community as a means to quiet your outspokenness and to lay the blame and responsibility for the problems on you.

Be misunderstood, ignored, undervalued, rejected, non-approved, unsupported by the people in your home, school, work and community systems.

Be so frustrated in not being able to control people to meet your ideals that you regularly experience anger, temper, and raging outbursts against these people.

Turn into a cynic or become fatalistic, hostile, pessimistic, and negativistic.

Be so blinded by your "shining'' ideals that you forget others are free to have their own opinion and become discouraged when you think no one is listening to you.

Experience a lowering of your self-esteem because you are not capable of living your ideals in your life spheres.


How is over-idealism a control issue

Over-idealism is a control issue because:

It is your attempt to put the "locus of control'' in your hands to get others to be the way they should be for you.

It is at the root of your need to overcontrol situations, people, places, or things in order to ensure that they come into compliance with your ideal image of the way reality is supposed to be.

You can resort to coercion, intimidation, or threats to get people, places or things to come into line with the ideals you expect them to have.

It often is at the base of your need to fix or be a caretaker because you see something less than ideal or perfect and impulsively reach out to change or care for it.

In your need to politically espouse your ideal belief system, you can utilize manipulation, conning, storytelling, promise making, favor swapping, and bargaining to get people, places, or things into line with you.

It often can blind you to the uncontrollables or unchangeables in your life so that rather than admit to powerlessness and then let go of them, you conversely work harder to change and bring them under control.

When you find it difficult to detach from others, it is often your idealized image of the way you are supposed to act, be, or behave that keeps you emotionally hanging on to these people.

It is often a barrier to your ability to gain self-control over your life because your idealism blinds you to what is reasonable, realistic and achievable for you in your life.

Behind your need to gain control and power over other persons, places, or things is the idealistic image or fantasy of the way your world is supposed to be and how only you have the answers to bring your world into synch with this image.

You are willing to sacrifice your own resources, energy, spirit, physical stamina or health in order to get your ideal image of the way life is supposed to be actualized in the lives of the people, places, and things with whom you come into contact.

It encourages a lack of moderation or compromise in your efforts to control others so that you can feel sane in an ideal world and at peace with the ideal way in which people should treat you.

A complete listing of overly idealistic traits as well as ways to reduce impact of idealism in your life (including specific steps to temper this characteristic) are available at:    http://www.coping.org/control/idealism.htm

All of this goes so hand-in-hand with perfectionism as well as improper/non-functioning boundaries, that I think it really needs to be addressed early on in the process of healing.

Hope

[moonlight52]

This is most helpful Hope,

For I have always believed all could be overcome by sheer will or a spirit of optimism.
(This feeling is effective when not in depression)

Having the understanding we are all human we all make mistakes makes it easier to forgive self and others to reach compassion .
When that is done real movement toward change can happen.

I wish to have a realistic optimism that is useful  not pie in the sky thinking.
Thank you Hope for this thread in particular is helping me at the stage I am at.
Whatever that is????????????

Moon

[Certain Hope]

Oh, Moon... I don't think there even is a name for some of these stages, so who cares! 

As long as we're moving forward and not sliding in reverse, it's progress!!

You're welcome. And thank you, too.

And... Amen to realistic optimism.

Love,
Hope

[Gaining Strength]

Certain Hope

I went to the coping.org site.  Thank you.  It is filled with so much.  I am starting with TEA.

Thoughts, Emotions, Actions.

My parallysis has worsened.  TEA takes me back to where I was a few weeks ago.  Correct Thoughts precede the emotions and actions.  This is the key to getting moving.  I am certain of this.  It gives me a place to focus.

Since I started participating in this forum things have gotten much worse for me.  I choose to believe that I am experiencing the resistance that occurs with any positive changes and I am sticking with it.  I choose to believe that this is a sign of change and progress  and I welcome it. No I embrace it. Come resistance, you are the sign of change I have been looking for - and I am ready.  I will not give up, I will not give in to resistance.  I do not see it as a door closed but as a door open.

Gaining Strength

[pennyplant]

My parallysis has worsened.  TEA takes me back to where I was a few weeks ago.  Correct Thoughts precede the emotions and actions.  This is the key to getting moving.  I am certain of this.  It gives me a place to focus.

Since I started participating in this forum things have gotten much worse for me.  I choose to believe that I am experiencing the resistance that occurs with any positive changes and I am sticking with it.  I choose to believe that this is a sign of change and progress  and I welcome it. No I embrace it. Come resistance, you are the sign of change I have been looking for - and I am ready.  I will not give up, I will not give in to resistance.  I do not see it as a door closed but as a door open.

Yes, GS, you are doing okay.  Things are coming to the surface.  Dealing with them is harder when they come to the surface.  It feels so much worse.  But that is the only thing that will heal you is to let it come to the surface.  You can do this.  It is very hard.  But you can do this.  It's going to feel very strange to be on the other side of the door.  It does not feel better at first.  But in reality it is better.  Just very unfamiliar.  We have all been through that strangeness.  It will be worth it.

PP

[Stormchild]

Uh-oh.

I agree totally, enthusiastically and whole-heartedly with the basic premise - that having unrealistically high standards sets us up for failure and disappointment and allows us to be taken advantage of.

But I'm not 100% in agreement with all the things presented as examples of unrealistically high standards.

I'm having a bit of trouble here with just a few. Some of them sound like basic fairness and reciprocity to me; the kind of things that abusers have taught me that I have no right to expect. Let me put those specific statements into if-then format - if x, then y - to clarify their basic conditional nature: and let's see what happens with a little logical analysis.

Here we go: the initial statement, then the statement in conditional format.

If I am here for you, you should be here for me. [No modification needed.]

You should respect my work just like I respect yours. [If I respect your work, you should respect mine.]

They should only hire, appoint, or select people for this job, task, or responsibility who are appropriate. [If they hire specific people for this job, then the specific people should be appropriate for the job.]

Everybody should put in an honest day's work for an honest day's wage. [If people expect an honest day's wage, they should put in an honest day's work.]

What are the converse, inverse and contrapositive versions of these statements?

Converse: if y, then x.

If you are here for me, then I should be here for you.

If you respect my work, then I should respect your work.

If specific people are appropriate for this job or task, then those people should be hired for it.

If people put in an honest day's work, they should expect an honest day's pay.

Well... these four versions seems fair and reasonable to me. Golden Rule-ish, as a matter of fact.

What are the inverses of these statements? If not x, then not y.

If I am not here for you, then you should not be here for me.

If I do not respect your work, then you should not respect my work.

If they do not hire specific people for this job or task, then those specific people should be not appropriate to the job or task.

If people do not expect an honest day's pay, they should not put in an honest day's work.

I hate to say it, but these seem pretty fair to me too...

What are the contrapositives? If not y, then not x.

If you are not here for me, then I should not be here for you.

If you do not respect my work, then I should not respect your work.

If people are not appropriate for this job or task, then they should not be hired for it.

If people do not put in an honest day's work, they should not expect an honest day's pay.

.... and so do these, although some of them are a bit tough-love-ish. Perhaps we could say... if you are not here for me, then I should not be expected to be here for you; and if you do not respect my work, then I should not be expected to respect yours. That's a little less tough-lovey.

Now: a conditional statement [if x, then y] and its contrapositive [if not y, then not x] are logically equivalent. And the converse [if y, then x] and the inverse [if not x, then not y] are also logically equivalent to each other.

So if the contrapositives of the original statements seem reasonable and fair.... then... the original statements must also be reasonable and fair, because, logically, they're the exact same thing.

I will have to think about this some more, because I think that set of contrapositives is basically about not being abused; and if that's true, then so are the original conditional statements.

oopsie: edit in, and it's the most important part of this entire post. The key to understanding all this blah-blah-blah is really very simple.

Creating the converse and contrapositives for two of the four statements that 'hooked' me... involves putting "Me" and "You" in each other's places. If "Me" and "you" have equivalent value, then the statement and its converse will be logically equivalent, as well as the statement and its contrapositive. And isn't it funny that the converses, above, are the ones that look like the Golden Rule? The ones that start with 'you' and end with 'me'? The ones that put another first, and oneself last? Could it be that the original statements seem to be unrealistically idealistic because they make the assumption that we are of equal value to others?[/b]

Sorry everybody. This probably sounds like total confusion. What it really is, is an analysis of rhetoric. We don't get taught that very much these days. Feel free to ignore everything I've just gone through here, if your eyes are crossing.

What I'm really getting at is - when adjusting one's standards to match reality, it's a good idea to be sure the baby doesn't go out with the bath water. Life isn't fair, for sure. But in facing the fact that life isn't fair, we need to make sure that we insist on being fair to ourselves. Otherwise, we could end up right back on the receiving end of abuse, again.

[Hopalong]

GS,
Don't you give up and don't you worry if you slipped. Two steps forward +  one step back still = FORWARD, as you just identified.

So can I rephrase something, just for you, and totally seriously, because I GET the paralysis feeling? (And like you, I also refuse to give up...?) Here goes:

A two-foot square.

(((((GS)))))

Hops

[Hopalong]

Hi,
I was very interested in the Over-Idealism concepts.
Nearly bit off my fingers to avoid sending it to my D, but I am not doing "heavy" with her unless asked.

Then, thought about it some more, and it occurs to me that although I do think it makes a lot of sense, I also hold a sort of paradoxical thought:

Forgiveness eliminates a lot of the scorekeeping that's in the list.

(Not confusing forgiveness with being a doormat, one can still hold limits and assert reciprocity, but when it fails, one can disengage with forgiveness. Just seems less...exhausting.)

A woman at work knew I overheard her saying something spiteful about me when she was feeling powerful. I just quietly withdrew and didn't engage for a week. Today she made a point of greeting me and asking "how are you." I do not trust her and would not choose to be close to her now (that's the boundary), but I decided to not be cold or spiteful back. Wasn't gushy warm, either, no fake smile...but I offered her a muffin and made a mild joke and her face lit up. I guess she felt worse about it than I did. Over and done.

I just went right back to my desk and kept working, and noticed that unlike earlier times in my life, I just let it go. Actually forgot about it until just now. And it had been something that had hurt for several days.

I'm glad about it. I think R's death is rearranging me in some serious ways.

Hops

[moonlight52]

Hi All ,
This process of feelings are like waves of love ,acceptance and courage in the face of so much pain .
What has given me the understanding of the process of healing is I have been doing it all my life never ending healing
and then the understanding of the experience that has brought sadness and then whatever propels me into healing.
I am not as afraid of the pain as I once was and accept life as it comes and I find myself just glad to be.

I understand being stuck and the feeling of knowing I am stuck but now I allow the feelings and like PP said I stay with that feeling and do not push it away.But I understand pushing the pain away.No right or wrong only being and the process .Life is not fair sometimes.
But we can be fair to ourselves and others .What else can we ask of ourselves .Staying with your feelings ,taking a step its
all a process of just accepting that it OK to be where you are.

My longest experience of being stuck or slow movement was when my twin passed away young.My depression lasted ten years my dear mom passed five years after my twin.My mom and my twin were the very breath of life to me.So I know the process from feeling and living the process .
I am  giving myself space and as I understand self  I understand others .I  now understand with my head. Thats the way it happened to me to find forgiveness of self and others and now I am understanding in words what happened to my heart .
Heart and head the understanding can bring relief.
 
 Much Love
 MoonLight

[pennyplant]

Hi Hope,

It has taken me a few days to read through the list fairly thoroughly.  I guess it rang a bell with me.  My parents believed all of these "irrational thoughts".  So that must be how I was raised.  So, it takes some doing not to see these ideas as "truth".  Even though I never really thought of myself as idealistic, I have experienced pretty much all of the negative effects of being overly-idealistic as they are listed here.  It truly explains so much of the frustration of being me.  Especially as a child.  I always thought my parents knew better, afterall!!!!!  I guess they only knew what they had been taught.  I kind of think these ideas are also taught to us culturally as part of what makes the "American Dream".  Can this partly explain our cultural narcissism?  Possibly.....

Now that I have pretty much disengaged from the N who brought me here, it does feel like I'm on the other side of the doorway.  Sort of like that white space in the Matrix.  I'm not in such a panic about what will fill in to that space.  Normally I would panic about the unknown.  But it doesn't really seem unknown so much as something that just hasn't happened yet.  One good thing for me in this situation of being through the doorway is that autumn is on the way.  My favorite season.  Fall easily reminds me of who I really am.  So, the timing couldn't be better for me with this new batch of knowlege.

Hope and all the others who put so much effort into the research--thank you very much for sharing it.  I'm kind of lazy that way.  And also tired from my job.  I probably wouldn't go to such efforts to find the articles.  But having the excerpts right here to read when I  need them makes a big difference.  So, thank you.

Now time to get ready for work.

Love, Pennyplant

[Stormchild]

Hey jac -- I agree with you too. And you and tracks have both gotten to an underlying presupposition here, that is used by so many to get away with so much: that whatever is, is okay, because it is, and we don't control it. That 'acceptance' equals passive tolerance and dispirited resignation to whatever happens to us.

Which would make it OK for Hops' colleague to slander her and then turn around and make nice without ever owning, or owning up to, what she has done, and Hops is obligated to let her 'get away' with that.

[Hops, ouch. From me to you, for you. I understand the need for peace, but I myself can no longer accept the second part of that phrase - the 'at any price' part. I've paid my entire lifetime's price already, it's long past time for the goods to be delivered. That's me. Others may be able to pay more for longer. Had I been in your place, I probably would have answered her question with a question - stated very calmly while looking her directly in the eyes: 'Why do you ask?'

I think your colleague was looking for 'cheap grace', for absolution without any hint of either confession or atonement. There are reasons for those steps, and it's no coincidence at all that the sequence runs: sin, awareness, conviction, repentance, confession/atonement, absolution. Forgiving someone who has not taken responsibility for their own actions isn't for them. It's for the forgiver. Which may be fine... but we should never mistake it for anything else. It's for us, and for us alone, always, when we do it. It's not for the relationship, because there is none, after that. Not in any adult sense. We have removed the mutuality, which is the foundation of adult relating.]

If we have even a rudimentary conscience we don't really WANT to 'get away' with anything.

Have you ever had a ringside seat at the ruination of a person? Watched them pull a fast one, and look around to see if they got caught, and get maybe a slap on the wrist? Have you ever seen the look of slyness and contempt that comes into a human face when they have done something they know is wrong, and gotten away with it in broad daylight in front of God and everybody, and concluded that they can do what they like from here on out and will never be held to account? Watched them make the awful choice to become corrupt? When one word, one look, one tiny confrontation - one person expecting accountability - might have been the thing that prevented and preserved.

I have. Over, and over, and over. It is one of the most sickening things in the world, to watch a person go down the tubes, by their own choice, because nobody with the authority to address the situation has the guts or the will to intervene.

Even our imperfect system of laws recognizes certain verbal or unspoken obligations as contractual - look at tort lawyers. Man, do they make money. Off of situations like these.

And that - that internal sense that we should behave decently and be able to expect decency in return - is the thing that sets us up. If we fall back from that and apply one standard to ourselves, and a lower standard to everyone else, we don't need no stinking abusers.

Because we have internalized them.

That's where I was going with this. Once we accept and internalize a double standard which expects more automatically from ourselves than it does from anyone else, once we conclude that we are obligated to extend cheap grace to all comers but we must be accoutable to them, we might as well hang an Open Season sign around our necks, and hand out hunting permits.

[reallyME]

Unfortunately, I rarely have time to read what everyone posts on here in each section, but I did read the initial post by CH...it described me a LOT!  I am an IDEALIST when it comes to MY WORLD...I am not someone who thinks LIFE will be ideal, but MY PART OF IT, YES, that would be the desire for me, which is why people can seem like such an irritant to me.

[Certain Hope]

Dear Gaining Strength,

I'm so glad you're finding some useful things at the Coping site. It's one I return to time and again, regularly, to glean some practical information about dealing with so many daily struggles. TEA is a concept that our pastor also applies to the practice of overcoming negative emotions, based on the fact that when they become troublesome, we can always trace those feelings back to some thought we nurtured. So... it always goes back to cleaning up that "stinkin thinkin" (renewing the mind)..
GS, I echo what Pennyplant and Jac have said to you here. Just hang on. All of this stuff which comes to the surface seems so threatening, but it's only deadly when it's hidden, buried. I like to think of it as a vampire exposed to the light of day... shriveling up and losing all power as the darkness fades. I've "felt" worse here, too, but God has sent some real pearls my way to encourage me to continue. Growth pains are very real and painful, but oh so necessary. Big hugs to you.

Jac,

.....the horrilble part is that the focus is outwards, on the needs of others, the need to assimilate rather than be an individual, and become accepting of yourself with all your flaws.  I think logically, since this kind of thinking ascribes to "myself" (if I believe this way) the ability to assess and determine what others think, feel, - you know if I believe that I can judge others in this way, then I will mostly certainly believe that others can do this for me as well.  I will be living my life according to what other's think and not according to what I think.

It is an impossible standard to live up to personally AND for everyone else.

Yes, this is what I gathered from it all, just as you say. For whatever reason, I seem to have always known that I would never be able to assimilate into "the group" as I've seen others do throughout my life. I believe that this sense of being an "oddball" was born as a result of witnessing blatant hypocrisy at home and in church/school, throughout my entire childhood. Any time I'd verbally question the disparity, the shame bucket would pour out its contents. None of these things were to be discussed, ever. Just swallow it all and quit trying to peek beneath the mask. Yes, it's an impossible standard for anyone and I see how pride and denial blended together form a surface more impenetrable than keflar. In my family, it was religious pride to the max that fed the lie and does still, to this day.

Stormy,

   I get it. Yes, many of these ideals are the basis of the Golden Rule. But what I think this list is saying is that in living according to that Rule ourselves, we must not be influenced by the fact that others are or are not doing the same. The Rule applies to us alone, from that standpoint, and we will be able to prosper, find contentment, possess true joy and peace....only to the extent that we keep our eyes off the other guy and stop comparing ourselves to him. The moment we begin comparing, we begin reacting to others instead of proactively living our own lives. We choose to enter a realm where we may be either greatly lifted up by or victimized by another's (or our own!) adherence to the Rule or lack thereof. The thing about rules like this is that they are valid whether anyone's following them or not. The rule becomes the standard, not the behavior of others or even our own. I see this as a place from which grace and mercy can flow freely, as opposed to the rigid structure of overly high idealism, which imprisons the one who clenches it within his heart as though he can own it for himself.
Hope that makes sense.

Stormy, I'll print out the list along with your comments and take a more thorough look to see what I've missed... no doubt alot. Please don't ever regret expressing your thoughts on it here. That's how we all learn, I think, and come to a fuller understanding.

Teartracks,

   Many thanks for the links. I'll have to look at them later today, lest I get off schedule ~ lol
Oh, there's another aspect of this I've run across that I want to investigate further as well, as it relates to the notion that giving must always be sacrificial.

Back later.

Love,
Hope

P.S. to Laura.... Exactly!!!  And see.... are people supposed to be considered an "irritant" to us:?  Not at all, right:? So what must we change in order to truly consider others better than ourselves? That's the whole point of this to me... if our "idealism" is preventing us from loving others as is right and good, then something needs adjusted.

[Hopalong]

Hi Stormy,
I certainly see your point about my colleague and "cheap grace."
But I already had found peace. For me, there is no additional price to pay...I feel as though I resolved it on my own. I just didn't feel like confronting her, because her inability or choice not to talk to me about what had happened actually suited me fine... I was just not interested in re-living it.

I forgave her for my own sake and without a lot of effort. I am not interested in spending any more energy on her because I will only be working there 8 more weeks, and as I suddenly saw she was not trustworthy, I am not interested in educating her to be accountable. I do believe it's her own conscience, such as it is, that caused her to want to "make nice."

On the other hand, it did occur to me in hindsight that she is very narcissistic...and I am not interested in any drama or intimate dialogue with her about what she said.

It may look from the outside like peace at any price, but from the inside, it just felt like peace in the way of detachment.

Make sense?

Hops

[Hopalong]

Hi Jac,
Thanks for thinking about it, and for your passion for justice!

Maybe it's hard to convey, but I am sure she doesn't feel I rolled over. There's a big contrast in my behavior. My actions around her are different. When I spoke to her, it was my own choice to be gracious, I wasn't groveling or telling her anything about herself ("You're off the hook!") at all. I was just acting in a way that felt dignified and right to me.

I feel no need to shame her, correct her or make her feel accountable. (Can't.)

Next time they'll do it again, to you, to anyone else.  Until of course they've been given the message that it is not okay.

I'm sorry to say that I think this person is very N-ish and she will very likely do it again--to someone else. I don't think the message "it's not okay" has much effect unless you have power over such a person, and I don't. But I'm okay with how I handled it, honestly. (This may be a you-hadda-be-there kind of thing, but I behaved and felt differently -- neither hiding nor confronting -- and I felt quite strong.)

without ever saying, "No, it is not okay for you to treat me like this" , and "because you cannot acknowledge and forgive then we cannot have the same relationship we once might have had"  in words or in substance?

I did it in substance, Jac. I'm not "playing her game" any more.

Another thing was how transparent she was...I had basically said No to her, so her icky sweetness vanished and spite came flashing out. It was so obvious to me I felt no anxiety to fix it -- because the person she said it to is very similar ("Snarkyboss" if old timers remember, the young N scientist one who sabotaged me there in the first place. No point.) Her face absolutely flamed when she realized I'd overheard. I honestly think it was worse for her than if I'd been emotional, that I kept my cool.

How she feels really isn't up to me. What I have done is warn a very sweet young new employee to set very firm boundaries with her. I've warned her about several issues there, because she's a great kid and I don't want her to be hurt.

I think I'm winding up my job there in my own way. Quietly, leaving excellent work behind. It's not been a nice place and I haven't been treated fairly. But if anyone wanted it to be otherwise, they had plenty of opportunity.

thanks for thinking about it with me, Jac.

Hops