When to Forgive, When to Have Contact with N Enablers

[penelope]

I am a bit nervous, cause since divorcing my N parents (officially since sometime before Christmas last year), I have also had to cut off all enabling siblings.  In order to determine (in my mind anyway) who would be enabling N Mom & N Dad's abuse, and who wouldn't, I wrote a simple email to all my family- all brothers and sisters and spouses/SO's (~10 people)- which stated how I felt about the abuse, and which also requested that whoever agreed and felt that the behavior that I found most damaging, which was scapegoating, should not be supported/perpetuated, could they please send me a quick email or call to let me know?  Well, I heard back from one brother.  So currently, I'm only talking to him and his wife.

Anyway, we've had dinner once since this email (back in April), and now he's emailed me again and said he'd like to get together for dinner again.  I'm very nervous;.  We've not talked at all since then.  I'm sure my N parents are Livid with me at this point, and are probably trashing my name behind my back, as this is generally what has happened in the past when I've cut them off (I once didn't talk to them for over 2 years).  Also, since that time, one of my other siblings + family (wife and two kids) have moved out of state, another sibling + family (husband and two kids) are getting ready to move to Guam for a couple years as he graduates from OCS this month and he will be fulfilling his military duties there... and another sibling + family (husband and newborn son who I've not seen) are probably wondering where I am.  In other words, I'm waiting for the: so, when are you going to call/write these guys, from the brother I am talking to.  My answer is: I'm not, they didn't respond positively to my request to not scapegoat me with Mom and Dad, so I can't have a relationship with them - just like I can't have a relationship with Mom and Dad until they realize what they're doing hurts me, and stop - which they may never.


I found this about holding grudges:

[If you decide to forgive a grudge, and want to reestablish a relationship, it should only be done if you realize the person has probably not changed.  So, if you stopped] "talking in 1991 because he got drunk and insulted your wife, or bilked you out of half your paycheck with a sob story, the odds are good that he'll do it again ... You need to accept that possibility and be prepared to confront it—ideally without cutting him out of your life a second time...Who ever said this would be easy?"


I currently have no grudges with this one brother and his wife, as they were the ones who responded positively, but I'm wondering if they will change their mind at some point and say:  "comeon, why don't you start talking to the family again (for whatever reason)..."  It will be tough for me if this happens, as I'm not able or ready to forgive and reestablish those broken relationships for the reason above - they've not changed.

pb

[Stormchild]

Pb, you seem to be feeling pressure to make a decision about this in the absence of any external pressure to do that.

Is something going on that I've missed?

I haven't been reading all posts on all threads lately... but if there's nothing pushing you to make a decision, I'd say, wait, take some deep breaths, and let this play out... you don't need to decide now.

[penelope]

oh yeah.  I'm reacting before anything has happened.     oy

just getting an invite from a family member to do something does it to me. 

[Gaining Strength]

penelope -
I encourage you to have dinner with your brother.  He did agree to not participate in the scapegoating.  I picked up a book by Daniel Amen, M.D. today called "Change your Thoughts, Change Your Brain."  I reread a passage that describes types of ANTs (automatic negative thougths).  One of those is Fortune Telling: predicting the worst possible outcome to a situation. 

You may be doing this in terms of your brother's invitation for dinner.  Perhaps you could instead make a plan if he brings up what you fear and then go ahead and plan for the best.

I have two old brothers.  They were part of the scapegoating and I have come to learn that there is nothing I can do to convince them that our father is NPD and that scapegoating was part of our exsperience. I have had two people tell me that my brothers have systematically turned thei children against me and that they say incredibly demeaning things about me to other people.  I shouldn't be surprised because that is what happened growing up but it is nevertheless unbearably painful. 

So I am glad that you did get one response from your e-mail and I encourage you to think positively about it but plan to have your boundaries set.  You have already set an important boundary in your own mind.  If he asks why you haven't been in touch with anyone else you have a clear answer.    I say, "Go for it."

Gaining Strength

[Hopalong]

Hi PB,
Is it okay with you if your brother respects the spirit of your decision if not the letter? IOW, I figure a person (you, your brother) always has the right to ask for what they want. Likewise, they must be prepared to respect another's No. So, if your brother should decide, for his own reasons, to say:
 "comeon, why don't you start talking to the family again (for whatever reason)..."

I run a few fantasy responses in my head:

"It has meant so much to me that you heard me, and responded to my email. I love you for that. But I won't be changing my mind about contact with them. Now, tell me, how is your job going? Tell me about the kids..."

(if he persists):

"I understand that my siblings might make different decisions that I am. Everyone has a right to be where they are. But my choice is my choice, and I am not changing it. Now, tell me, how's your friend BlahBlah doing? Does he still work for XYZ?"

Something like that, you know? Not letting that subject, of your "divorce" -- become the only thing on the table.

"Wow, this is good. Do you cook much? The other night I made blahblah and it worked out! Want to go to a movie? I hear Little Miss Sunshine is fantastic, think we could make a 9:00?"

I think if you focus on being present and simply enjoying being with your brother, showing him love and appreciation while calmly repeating your boundary as necessary....and trying to enjoy talking with him about other things...you'll be just fine.

I think he loves you. He might think he needs to drag you into the past, because he might be confused about what's "good". But you can change the subject and still be loving back...

Hops

[penelope]

Hello 

jac -

So then you must honor that truth, unless you feel you're are trying to avoid something or there is another truth you're evading from yourself (and I am not at all suggesting that you are) then that's the only reason, to me, to look at it again.  Otherwise, it's your decision and I say be at peace with it.

knowing what truth is is so difficult for us isn't it??  I'm hanging onto "truth," though, even if only by a flimsy thread, at times.  Thank you for your post jac, it means a lot to me.


Gaining - fortune telling - yep, my favorite pasttime.  Should I bring a crystal ball and set it on the table just for fun.     Then if he asks, I can exclaim, "I KNEW IT, THE BALL NEVER FAILS ME!!" 

I have two old brothers.  They were part of the scapegoating and I have come to learn that there is nothing I can do to convince them that our father is NPD and that scapegoating was part of our exsperience. I have had two people tell me that my brothers have systematically turned thei children against me and that they say incredibly demeaning things about me to other people.  I shouldn't be surprised because that is what happened growing up but it is nevertheless unbearably painful. 

I am sorry to hear this.  For some reason it strikes me that you've shared this, as I too have two older brothers...the one who agreed is actually one of them.  But, that is irrelevant.  I suppose it's safer to stay in deep denial than for them to admit you're right...simply admitting you're right may be their whole hangup, also, do you think?  I know my younger brother will Never admit I'm right about anything (I can't believe someone can be so intelligent yet so immature/insecure).  Never mind what it's about.   


tt -

My sense is that you feel your brother may surprise you with a new, expanded reaction/demands  based on what has transpired since April or since you had dinner the last time and that you will be ill prepared to deal with it on the spot, in a public place and come away feeling betrayed and embarrassed, because it will call for you to transgress your new boundaries.  My guess is that you don't like surprises period!  I don't either. 

This is a situation where based on your past experience with FOO, you feel compelled to be prepared for the worst.  But because he has been consistent in his support of you in the past (I think I'm remembering that correctly), it seems appropriate to go to the dinner expecting the best.  That said, and knowing me, I would pre-think all the possible scenarios that could take place and have contingency plans in case there are surprises.  I would have an exit plan especially if you are dining in a public place and the atmosphere becomes excessively strained.   But that is just me.  I always have contingency plans.  Always!

wow tt.  we do think alike.  Must be the INTJ thing.  I could have written what you've wrote to me.  Thank you for getting me so well and for suggesting the obvious - have an exit plan!


hops -

While we're not at all alike (it's much more comfortable and easier for me to devise an exit strategy and Flee, than to say something as rational and calm and as you've just suggested, if the need arises), I do want to try to do what you've suggested.  I do want to try to grow, in other words...thank you.  Brother knows me very well, and thus may respond with: huh? or a blunt You didn't answer my question.  or You don't even sound like yourself anymore..   but hey, it's all OK.  He'll adapt to my changes, they always do.     What's that saying:  adapt, migrate, conquer or perish (or something like that).  Since he believes strongly in Darwin (he's a botanist), he should recognize the need to change.   

I will try all these strategies as the need arises.  Thank you for getting me, all.  It never ceases to amaze me at times.

pb

[reallyME]

PB:

We've not talked at all since then.  I'm sure my N parents are Livid with me at this point, and are probably trashing my name behind my back, as this is generally what has happened in the past when I've cut them off

What do you CARE about who is saying what about you, since you already KNOW they don't want a part of a relationship with you.  I will say what I've said again and again...people who mistreat you are NOT WORTHY TO BEAR THE LABEL OF "Mom" or "Dad" even if they conceived and birthed you into this world.

I can't have a relationship with Mom and Dad until they realize what they're doing hurts me, and stop - which they may never.

Exactly.  So then why do you care about what they are saying behind your back, Penelope?  Does their opinion of you shape or define who you ARE?  Let them think what they want and will...you don't have to choose to have it affect you.  I will never understand why adults who have these sorts of situations, fret over them because of the thought that "abusers might be acting like abusers" behind their backs.  As I once heard a while ago...you cannot expect sinners to not behave like sinners.

[penelope]

good point reallyme..I'm letting them go a little bit more everyday.  It's hard though   

hugs,
bean

[Gaining Strength]

reallyMe -

I actually have an answer to "Why do you care."  The reason I care goes back to the fundamental need every infant has to be loved and nurtured.  While I do understand that by having N or NPD parents means those needs were not, will not be met I am quite certain that the longing for and need for that nurturing will not go away.  So for me, I care but have found a way to unattach and am now able to begin developing ways to get that nurturing.  When I have simply shut the door on my parents in the past, I just simmered in resentment, excruciating pain and internal rage.  By detaching and creating fictional nurturing parents in my mind I am able to let go of my hurt and rage and FINALLY begin to progress toward healing.  I certainly understand, "Why do you care?"  Perhaps it is a good step toward detaching and one that can be refined over time.  It certainly can be an essential safeguard in the midst of abuse.  But ultimately forgiveness (not the same as reconciling) is the most freeing.

Yours - Gaining Strength

[Certain Hope]

Gaining Strength,

  I really appreciate what you've said here about the effects of shutting the door on your parents. To me, detachment is not at all  about ceasing to care. In fact, to attempt to stop caring would, to me, be the equivalent of becoming "N". Just as forgiveness (not reconciling) is about releasing one's right to punish an offender, I view detachment as releasing one's expectations of receiving satisfaction from an emotionally stunted person. Thanks for helping my clarify my own thoughts on this!

Love,
Hope

[penelope]

my detachment from N mother has actually helped me to see the kind things about her.  I know we can never have a healthy, normal, adult relationship, but the less I see her the more I can remember some of the good things - and believe it or not, the more I can respect her for being the best mother she knew how.

There are good and bad things about Ns, they're not all evil.


I have to be careful though, cause like you pointed out Gaining, it's easy to create a fantasy "good" parent that gives us what we need/needed.  And the risk there is you want to go back to your N parent, thinking they've become the fantasy one when they haven't. 

I do believe that the detaching process is quite complex and not at all an easy thing to do.  Just as I believe that learning to nuture and give ourselves what the N parent(s) couldn't give us is incredibly difficult.  Despite its difficulty, I want to learn and am trying.

hugs GS and all,
p bean

[Stormchild]

Hi PB

I guess for me the acid test is: is there enough good to make me want to be around this person when I am at my most vulnerable? If not, why do I want to be around them? [Do I think I can guarantee that I will remain invulnerable at all times in their presence? Or will I always be able to get away from them immediately, if and when it becomes necessary? (Getting away can mean putting up internal protection, it need not be literally getting up and leaving them.)]

In my last two years with Nmom, I limited my interaction to one visit every two months or so, where I would take her out to a restaurant, feed her, let her talk, and pay for her meal.

By the second year, she had reached the point where she was literally trying to soil herself while riding in my car [after the first time, which did not succeed, I never went to see her without covering her seat with plastic and a towel!], and she deliberately positioned her legs to interfere with my shifting gears, and would complain when I asked her to move. She did these things simply because there was nothing else destructive that she could do to me, by then.

Someone here mentioned Boundaries - maybe it was kellydckm - the same authors have another book, Safe People. It's really good reading...

I guess I've posted this because sometimes it's just not worth what it takes out of you, to expose yourself to these people. My mother is dead. I never want to take on another burden like that, for the rest of my mortal life... I live and work in proximity to more than enough difficult and toxic folks. When I have the ability to choose, I'd rather avoid additional ones.

[Gaining Strength]

I do believe that the detaching process is quite complex and not at all an easy thing to do.  Just as I believe that learning to nuture and give ourselves what the N parent(s) couldn't give us is incredibly difficult.  Despite its difficulty, I want to learn and am trying.

I think both of these are incredibly difficult.  I like to think of them as thought habits that take lots of practise.  That way if I find myself falling back I don't feel defeated and am willing to keep pushing forward.  It is definitely worth the effort for me.  It really gives me great hope.  Anybody out there had success with these?

GS

I am trying to apply the "detaching" process to the shame that I took on as the FOO scapegoat.  It seems an appropriate tactic.