N father

[Gaining Strength]

I ran into a friend at a coffee shop today.  She said she had met my father at a neighbors house.  By the look on her face I knew something had happened.  So I told her that my father has not been functioning well as of late. (No need to try to explain NPD.) And I asked her had something happened.  In short, this is what she said.

One of her neighbors had tradgically lost her 47 year old daughter and was receiving mourners.  My friend, Liz and my father were among those gathered.  My father said to a handful of women - "Go upstairs and get Anne."  They said, "She is upstairs in the bathroom."  "Well, go upstairs and get her.  I waited down here last night for over 20 minutes while she was in the bathroom.  I'm not going to wait that long tonight. I need to show her what I have brought."  The grown women felt utterly trapped.  They were horrified by his demands.  The intrusiveness, for him to demand that this mother in mourning, who had retreated upstairs be brought downstairs to acknowledge his "thoughtfulness" is quite horrific to me and was horrific to those who experienced this. 

His need to be acknowledged was all he was cognizant of.  Nothing else existed, not common decency, not this mother's bereivement - nothing.

This obvious narcissism is actually fairly new in his life.  When I was a child he kept that behavior boxed in, available only for us.  It is only in the past year or so that it is apparent everywhere.  Perhaps because his 2nd wife kicked him out last Sept. he has no place to direct his NPD and so now it goes out to anyone.

Quite frankly, it was something of a relief to hear that someone else has experience that horror that I grew up with.  When she shared this with me, I realized that what I had lived was a person, whom I idolized, forcing me to act in inappropriate ways that were humiliating.  And this was the person who was supposed to teach me what WAS appropriate.  That this grown person, who had no allegiance to him, found herself cowtowing to him, against her preference, against her sense of decency helps me forgive myself for being so controlled by him for so long.  It helps me forgive myself for being so confused about how the world works. 

I am sorry that she had that experience.  I am sorry that that event ever took place.  But I am incredibly thankful that Liz shared that with me.  I am incredibly thankful for the doors and windows of understanding that have opened.

I do feel hit by a truck - but I also feel relieved. - Gaining Strength

[Certain Hope]

((((((((((Gaining Strength))))))))))  yes, hit by a truck and yes, relief!!
Reading this literally gave me goosebumps.
It's simply astounding, incomprehensible...  the lack of insight an NPD individual can demonstrate.

I am so sorry for this woman's loss of her daughter and this man's imposition upon the grief of that household. Such a demand he made... it surely took them all aback and put them into shock! They've likely never seen anything of the sort in a human being, unless they've encountered another N at some time.

What you've described here is something my brother would do, has done, to varying degrees, throughout his life. But he has never limited this sort of behavior to his nearest and dearest, pretty much letting it fly to anyone and everyone in his path, especially me, when I was near enough to catch it. He's the "star", as he says, and has always required special treatment. I guess he's gotten away with it because he's financially well off and quite intelligent. Most of the people with whom he's surrounded himself have struck me as fakes and users. One example ~ when our grandmother was in her early 90's, he would insist that she take these long treks with him in the car and then, instead of taking his luxury model, he'd decide to pick her up in his old pickup truck and make a real adventure out of it. He couldn't understand why Grandma soon refused to accompany him. Because he seems to have no concept of time and the effects of aging upon the human body, or care for anyone else's wellbeing, he would chide her regularly for her lack of spunk and vitality. It seemed to me that he expected everyone to join in on his denial of reality and be willing to "go along for the ride" at his whim. The more I learn, the more I realize that he is one of the biggest N's I've ever known.

I am so glad your friend Liz shared this with you, GS. Every bit of validation helps. Thank you for sharing it with us.

Love,
Hope

[pennyplant]

(((GS)))))

My first thought for you was happiness that your friend shared this with you.  It had to be difficult for her to say it (not knowing what your reaction would be).  On the other hand, it had to be a such a shocking experience for her that it was overpowering and she had to say it.  But the validation--something like this can give you a little step up on that spiral staircase.  It can heal a small part of your heart to know that it wasn't your fault that your young self had no way to escape your father's influence.

It was a terrible thing for him to have done and for the women to put up with, but it was a gift that one of them told it to you.

Pennyplant

[Gaining Strength]

Jacmac

I do harbor this secret hope that people would begin to stop responding to this behavior as your friend did above.

I know what you mean, but what is interesting about it to me is how powerful abusers can feel.  These people reacted as though he had a gun to his head. The person who told me the story is not a pushover.  There is a hostage taking mechanism at play here.  I don't quite have that figured out yet but I do think it is important.  Something transpired that caused these women who are not under the power of this abuser, to give in to the abuse.  It somehow goes to some understanding about why people in relationships with abusers continue to give in - like your friend, like me, like so many we know and read about.  I still don't get it - why do people give in to abuse?  I don't get it but I see from this story how unbearably controlling that abuse or threat of abuse is.

I am definitely going to spend time thinking about this.

Certain Hope

I read this:

Because he seems to have no concept of time and the effects of aging upon the human body, or care for anyone else's wellbeing, he would chide her regularly for her lack of spunk and vitality.

and am shocked.  Why should this shock me any more than my story? I don't know.  But each and every one of the stories about narcissists shocks me and I hope will always shock me.  These acts are so unbearably evil.  That's a harsh word but I believe it.  Each time we force another to act in total disregard to their well being it is evil.

Every bit of validation helps.

It really does.  Every single bit feeds me - as though I have been starving.  Every single bit of validation gives me sustenance and changes me. Alleluia.


pennyplant

It had to be difficult for her to say it. It was a gift that one of them told it to you.

She told me a story about her father.  I knew that her father had left her mother with 5 young children, never to look back.  Liz told me that he never came to any of their events or parents' nights or birthdays.  Once when she was playing soccer she saw her father from a distance on the side lines.  Then she looked and saw the name on the jersey of one of her opponents and realized that girl was her father's step daughter.  He had come for HER.  Liz left that day and never played soccer again.

This story leaves me just numb.  Like all of these wretched stories.  It breaks my heart to hear them, to tell them.  But it does give me validation and if I focus, these stories can fire my determination to overcome the damage, to get on my feet, to heal and to turn the darkness into light.  I know I can take the energy from these stories, these experiences and re-channel so that it no longer destroys me but so that it envigorates me.  That's what I believe I can do. 

Don't you all think we can do that?  For ourselves and for each other.

[gratitude28]

GS,
When my parents do things like this, I have the bad habit of taking on the embarrassment they SHOULD be feeling. My mother does horrendous things and doesn't even know it sometimes. I think our whole family is always ready to go into embarrassment-mode.
I just can't believe that other people put up with it. I always wonder how they do. Do they not see it for what it is?
Love, Beth

[Gaining Strength]

Gratitude,

I don't get it either.  I never have.  Now I have a word for it.  "Disconnect."  It's not my word but it may as well be because when I use it it's like the EASY button, suddenly the craziness gets righted. Just saying that word shifts the focus from ME feeling crazy to me knowing THEY are crazy.  I don't know why - but it really helps. - Gaining Strength

[pennyplant]

This story leaves me just numb.  Like all of these wretched stories.  It breaks my heart to hear them, to tell them.  But it does give me validation and if I focus, these stories can fire my determination to overcome the damage, to get on my feet, to heal and to turn the darkness into light.  I know I can take the energy from these stories, these experiences and re-channel so that it no longer destroys me but so that it envigorates me.  That's what I believe I can do. 

Don't you all think we can do that?  For ourselves and for each other.

Your friend's story breaks my heart too.  And I know of other families where this kind of thing goes as well.  It hurts the first set of children so very deeply that it colors every moment of the rest of their lives.  They never stop feeling hurt by this abandonment and betrayal.  They take it on as their fault.  When it is really something else entirely.  Something N-istic on some level.  Guilt is involved in some way on the part of the parents who do this.

When my parents do things like this, I have the bad habit of taking on the embarrassment they SHOULD be feeling. My mother does horrendous things and doesn't even know it sometimes. I think our whole family is always ready to go into embarrassment-mode.
I just can't believe that other people put up with it. I always wonder how they do. Do they not see it for what it is?

Yes, I take on this embarrassment as well.  That is the thing that has to stop.  Many, many other people do this as well.  Maybe because the only alternative many people see is to try to get the other person to stop doing the bad things and that is impossible most of the time.  So, then the imagination must leap to what they, the witness, can do.  It's hard to know what else to do in the moment, I guess.  Look at all the thought it takes here.  All the soul-searching.  Each person has to be ready for a lot of work in order to do that kind of soul-searching.  Maybe some people are more natural with the "disconnect."  They "just don't think about it."  I know people who deal with difficult things in that way.  I, on the other hand, don't have such an easy answer.  Just gotta do it my way  .

Just good insights on this board.  It all helps.

Pennyplant

[mum]

Dear Gaining Strength:
I'm sorry your dad is an N. It's hard (I watch my kids learning it slowly) to realize your parent is like this. I'm glad, though, that this event, although sad for others, gave you validation.

Something transpired that caused these women who are not under the power of this abuser, to give in to the abuse.  It somehow goes to some understanding about why people in relationships with abusers continue to give in - like your friend, like me, like so many we know and read about.  I still don't get it - why do people give in to abuse?  I don't get it but I see from this story how unbearably controlling that abuse or threat of abuse is.

I think this may be how it works, initially:
People who do treat others with respect and common decency, and who approach others openly with love, are so appalled by the N's demands, that with deer-in-the-headlights eyes and jaws agape.....do what the Nidiot says, because it's not at the tip of our toungues, or at the top of our social vocabulary list to have a quick defense or "what the hell do you think you are doing" reaction at the ready. The behavoir is so far off the charts, in terms of social acceptability, that we are just unprepared for it, really.

[Gaining Strength]

Something about having seen my father through someone else's eyes is getting some part of my shame unstuck.  Every now and then I can almost articulate it.

When my father was a child, his cold father figuratively choked the joy and laughter out of him.  He never allowed joy around him after that.  My father completely identified with his emotionally abusive father. That is some form of Stockholm Syndrome to me.  So he never allowed us to be giggly or joyful.  Everything was all serious all the time.  I'm not sure where I'm headed with this.

All night long I woke up with this sense of being between two conflicting presences or pressures.  There was the vague sense of resolving the conflict or of stepping out from between the presences.  Today, I had this vague sense of the shame morphing, softening, like candle wax in the sun - as opposed to candle wax melting from bein lit.  All of these images are tangible but not fully formed, not fully articulated.  I really think I'm moving forward and that this is related to that story about my NPD father.  I will just keep at it until it becomes clearer.  Feel free to weigh in.  OR if you are around push me a little - you are great at that.

GS muddling through

[Gaining Strength]

I found this on www.aconbravehost.com

There are many issues connected with surviving an Nparent. Some of those issues are listed below with a variety of articles, links and recovery tools for support and research. The impact of the N abuse on a child has many repercussions which may include:
PTSD
Feeling voiceless
Suppression of many feelings to accommodate the raging-shaming-blaming of the Nparent which may result in the child of an N not being able to feel safe or permitted to express their anger, grief, sadness, fear or other emotions
Chronic low-grade or clinical depression, which may vary in seriousness from mild melancholy to total paralysis and may have an emphasis in anxiety, sadness or both
Panic attacks
Abandonment depression
Unhealing grief
Obsessive Compulsive Disorder or traits
Self-mutilation, self-cutting
Self-hair-pulling
Pica
Eating disorders such as anorexia, bulimia and obesity
Living in a messy environment
Not maintaining personal hygiene
Isolating
Feeling uncomfortable without dramarama
Attempting to self-medicate for depression or PTSD with other self-destructive habits
Boundary issues
Dependency issues
Co-dependency issues
Repeated relationships with emotional or physical abusers
Obsessing
Compulsivity
Migraines
Emotional and social issues connected with PTSD:
Eating disorders such as anorexia, bulimia and obesity
Addictions to alcohol and/or drugs:
12-step recovery process links and articles
OCD
Deprivation issues and/or deprivation addiction
Needing to detox from years of psychological/emotional/spiritual/physical abuse
Splitting and dissociation
Self-destructive habits such as self-mutilation
Self hair-pulling
Not knowing how to feel emotions in healthy ways: anger, sadness, grieving
Mood swings
Promiscuity
Reactive Borderline Personality disorder traits
Feeling like their meaning in life is to be their Nparent's container
Feeling F.O.G. -fear-obligation-guilt as a continuous state
Abandonment issues
Stockholm Syndrome


never heard of Feeling F.O.G. -fear-obligation-guilt as a continuous state before but that is exactly how I described my aversion to phone and mail for many yearss to my T.  This list overwhelms me.  I want to go through it slowly. - GS

[gratitude28]

I guess I DON'T have a problem. Only 5/6ths of these apply to me

I am soooo glad to find out I am normal!!!!

Hee hee.
Love, Beth

[Gaining Strength]

LOL Beth.  I can't even look at this list for more than a few seconds without feeling crazy.

your friend - Gaining Strength

[Certain Hope]

Whew, thank goodness, GS!!~!

Does that mean I can keep avoiding it, too??   

lol (((((((())))))))

Love,
Hope

[portia guest]

The grown women felt utterly trapped.  They were horrified by his demands.  

GS, I read this earlier and now curiosity gets the better of me. I have to know!

What did they do? Did they go and get Anne? What did he do next? What did the women do?

People in groups can behave very oddly. i wonder what your friend would have done if your Dad had said it to her only, if she'd been there alone? Maybe he wouldn't have said it to one person? Maybe he needed a big audience to make his demands on? Would your friend have told him to stuff it? I would but then I'm a bit mad. Thank goodness!

[Gaining Strength]

I'm not clear.  But I understood Liz to say that "They" went and got her and Liz was among "They".  She didn't really focus on the outcome.  Her energy was on the demand.

It really helps me as a human understand why I was so trapped by his outrageous demands and how it possible could be that we as a family weren't able to see that there was something terribly, terribly wrong.