Voicelessness and Emotional Survival > Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Shame - the ultimate voicelessness?
October:
--- Quote from: Richard Grossman ---October, thanks for your insightful and thought-provoking post. I'll look forward to more. Welcome aboard!
--- End quote ---
Thanks. Very diplomatic. Could mean worthwhile or total nonsense. :D
Didn't mean to sound so much like I was lecturing. Forgot the 'IMO' bit. However, have looked a lot into ancient cultures, and in particular the transition from hunter gatherer to civilisation, just as a hobby, and it is amazing what you find. The Bible is good for this, because a lot of the old testament was written long after this transition, but contains older texts and bits of poetry etc which are clearly much much older, and give a glimpse into the earliest culture of that area, including the child sacrifice that went on. You might be amazed how many references there are in the OT to the pagan practices which were going on of sacrificing their firstborn children, and the overtones from that continue into present day Judaism and Christianity.
Whenever anything is presented as genetic, I think of these people, and wonder whether it is, or whether it is cultural, because cultural evolution is so much more rapid, and covers a multitude of sins!!!!
Lecturing again. Time to shut up.
Not only have Nmum but also have ptsd. Doesn't make for a lot of emotional energy, I'm afraid.
However, thanks for listening.
Dr. Richard Grossman:
I truly appreciated your post--your point that human beings are highly status conscious (which includes garnering control and power), and that they are heavily invested in maintaining and bettering their status--and that shame is one of the destructive tools used for maintaining status---is very important. By the way, a new study in the Archives of General Psychiatry suggests that humiliating losses--losses that often involve a reduction in status and hence, one's self-esteem--were significantly more powerful than other losses (e.g. loss of a loved one) in driving people into depression.
October:
--- Quote from: Richard Grossman ---I truly appreciated your post
I thought you probably did, really, :D but there is always a demon on one shoulder and an angel on the other, and I have to make the demons visible in order to take away the power of their lies..
<humiliating losses--losses that often involve a reduction in status and hence, one's self-esteem--were significantly more powerful than other losses (e.g. loss of a loved one) in driving people into depression.
--- End quote ---
>
This would seem true in my family's case, where laughing at children is pretty well standard practice, as is denying their evaluations of their own bodies; ie hunger or thirst or pain etc.
Having been on the receiving end of that laughter in many situations, it was always very painful. Never laughing with the child, always ridiculing and humiliating. Makes you curl up and die inside, and makes you say over and over again, I must never let them see me do/say that again. So you (I) cultivate invisibility, and you learn not to speak, or you get laughed at. Or worse, shouted at.
Amelia Rose:
Hi. I, too, have suffered from Shame. Addressing it and recognizing it is a big step. My mother used to use "words" to control me - fists, too. Only my friend who lived acrossed the street - her mother was using a metal baton on her - so I thought I must have had it good compared to that. My mother used to say "Shame on you!" Or "you don't deserve . . . " Because of behavior like this -and other things - I walked around most of my life with very low self esteem, feeling very ASHAMED for just being me. I didn't have any reason to be ashamed - except because my mother drilled it into my head that I should be ashamed. I was very grateful when I became "aware."
About the therapist. I was concerned about my son - very good reasons - I saw some emails he wrote that frightened me - I was fearful he was going to harm himself. (by the way - I was married to a N man for 22 years at this time - that was 2 years ago). I chose a therapist out of the phone book. I told him our needs. My son, husband and I met with him. It turned into family therapy. I had 2 friends who must have had intituion - the both warned me to be careful about negative therapists. This man - didn't like women. I was a wife, mother, woman, person who was seeking help - to try to help her son - her family. No mattter what I would say - this man would criticize what I said. He would invalidate anything I had to say. He would not ever take anything I had to say of importance. After about 6 meetings - that I paid out-of-pocket, my husband, son and I agreed that we were not getting anything out of the therapy. So we ceased going.
When I shared with a good friend - the therapist's behavior towards me - she urged me to tell him. She told me that I should tell the therapist. I hestiated - I didnt' want to make a special call to do this. I decided to leave it at that.
About 2 months later - the therapist surprised me with a telephone call. He said he wanted to know how we were doing and when I told him - that my son was doing good, but my husband was pretty much the same - he urged us to return to therapy. This is when I took the opportunity to tell him how I felt . He was surprised. He asked me if it was "one" thing he said. I explained to him- NO - it was whenever "I" - a woman, a person, a mother, a wife - who was trying to get help for her family - I was the reason we were there - I was seeking help - that he criticized everything I had to say - I also asked him if he did this because I was a woman. Needless to say - he didn't say much. The telephone call ended. I hope that this person thought about what was said - I hope he benefited from it. I feel that I did. I feel that he called me for a reason - not the one he thought it was for - he called me so I could tell him and give him something to think about. Hopefully it helped him and his patients. Take care and have a great day - all of you. Thank you Dr. Grossman for being here :? . For Validation. For growth. You are a very special person. I appreciate you and what you are doing. Thanks again.
Anonymous:
You talked about how our N parents didn't acknowledge our own assessment of our bodies (hungry, thirsty, etc.)
(I didn't do that quote thing correctly, still learning)
October, I had forgotton all about that! But it is something that I experienced constantly. And even to more extreme. My Nmother to this day tells other people "she tends to be a bit of a hypochondriac" referring to me, because any time I was in any kind of pain, or felt any discomfort in my body she would either minimize it or completely ignore it altogether. SHE would decide when I was sick. I really had to "convince" her if i WAS sick. It was soooo frustrating and invalidating. I was told that I was imagining things.
She even told me that before I was born she entertained the concept of Christian Science, which probably worsened an already existing tendency to ignore her children's pain.
Interestingly, as an adult I carry ALL of my stress in my body - most of it I was unaware of for years because I was taught to ignore it. When I began craniosacral and other forms of therapeutic massage, not only discover a world of pain that I had been carrying around, but I am now so "back to normal" physically that I can acknowledge the pain if it comes and treat it so its normal again. Back pain, neck pain, clenched jaw, lactic acid in every area, you name it I had it. Now it has all but disappeared, only resurfacing under extreme stress.
It is possible that some of that was psychosomatic pain - but what many people (Ns or otherwise) fail to realize is that it doesn't mean it's not real. And I wonder if this was a defense mechanism to the N abuse. Its the chicken or the egg, isn't it?[/quote]
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