Author Topic: Double Bind  (Read 7420 times)

gratitude28

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Double Bind
« on: October 01, 2006, 10:25:01 PM »
I pulled this out of another thread because this is exactly what's been on my mind although I didn't have a name for it.
We got a million presents for Christmas every year. If you didn't show instant wonder and amazement in each one, my parents were disappointed. Like wise with doing anything "special." If you liked one thing, it meant you didn't like another. Everything you did in some way was made to seem as if it took away from something else. It is mind numbing. And it goes on for me now as well...
Love you all,
Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

Gaining Strength

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2006, 12:44:41 PM »
Just reading this makes my stomach turn.  Thanks for picking up on this. 

How does it go on for you as well now?  Care to elaborate?

Quote
If you didn't show instant wonder and amazement in each one, my parents were disappointed.
We had to express unending amounts of "appreciation" and if we didn't we would never forget it.  And that still goes on for me today as well. 
So painful - just writing it. - GS


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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2006, 02:32:23 PM »
Dear Beth,

  I'm wondering also... how does this go on for you now, still?

In my family growing up, it wasn't about gifts... there weren't too many, really. With my mother, it was the cold shoulder and pinched, angry expression if I didn't take her suggestion about something... like an item of clothing for sale at the store... if I said that I didn't really like it, she showed absolute disgust for me.  Basically, if I expressed any idea or thought of my own, I was repulsive to her, and I always knew it was for not showing "appreciation". Or rather, for not being just exactly like her  :?


Actually, I do remember one time my Dad brought me some trinket he'd gotten through a promotional... one of those free gift type things... and I didn't express appreciation. I don't remember why I didn't like/want it. Maybe I knew it was just some junk thing he'd gotten for nothing or maybe I was upset with him for something else at the time... but I guess I was rude about not appreciating it and he had a fit. He made a big scene and show about giving it to my mother then, since I didn't want it. I have a hunch the whole thing was a set-up anyway... like one of his attempts to play off my mother's jealousy against me. Wish I could recall the feelings that were behind it, but I wasn't very old at the time and I only remember winding up feeling very guilty and ashamed of myself.

I don't really know how they are about this now... I've pretty much tuned them out.

Hope

chris2

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2006, 06:09:59 PM »
Thank you for this topic!

Hope:
Quote
  Basically, if I expressed any idea or thought of my own, I was repulsive to her, and I always knew it was for not showing "appreciation". Or rather, for not being just exactly like her  :?

This is a bit off topic, but a very good point! Not being "appreciated" enough was a big hot button for my Nmom. One of her narcissistic traits is an inability to give anything without the expectation of a return at least as good as what was put out. Since a parent is always giving things to a child, the narcissist's child always has a balance due. I wonder if mimicry is one of the ways in which narcissistic parents look for payback? They want you to like what they liked, because that feeds the never ending hunger for validation. If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, imitation would be in very great demand in the narcissistic mind.

Quote
Actually, I do remember one time my Dad brought me some trinket he'd gotten through a promotional... one of those free gift type things... and I didn't express appreciation. I don't remember why I didn't like/want it. Maybe I knew it was just some junk thing he'd gotten for nothing or maybe I was upset with him for something else at the time... but I guess I was rude about not appreciating it and he had a fit. He made a big scene and show about giving it to my mother then, since I didn't want it. I have a hunch the whole thing was a set-up anyway... like one of his attempts to play off my mother's jealousy against me. Wish I could recall the feelings that were behind it, but I wasn't very old at the time and I only remember winding up feeling very guilty and ashamed of myself.

This is a really interesting story and has given me a huge lightbulb moment.

Narcissists are always very bad gift givers. That seems to be the one constant that every child of a narcissist immediately recognizes. This example of bad gift-giving is a litany of narcissistic behaviors. It shows: 1) Immaturity. An adult does not go ballistic and behave childishly because of the behavior of a child. The adult recognizes the origin of the child's behavior and adjusts his response. 2) Dramatics. Your Ndad made a big scene - of course! He was going to get his attention feed one way or another. You weren't willing to give him a big loving show? He would get your attention another way then! 3) The creation of discord. He played you and your mother off against each other. All narcissists love to control other people by setting them against each other. 4) Selfishness. Did he buy himself cheap nasty things too? Or was that just for other people? 5) Creepiness.  The hallmark of the narcissist is that he is not normal. Think about what a normal person would do with a junky promo object.  Dispose of the object, or ask if the potential recipient wants it, making it clear that the object had been a giveaway, or give it to someone who might want it for parts? A normal person makes it clear that the recipient is doing the giver a favor by relieving them of this object and that no reciprocity is implied.  Pretending that promo junk gotten for free is a gift, with all the sacrifice and care that implies, is a distortion of reality. Your Ndad's behavior was selfish and childish, but healthy people are often selfish and sometimes childish. But your Ndad's behavior was also sick. 6) The double bind. (Thanks GS...I'm starting to see it now) You had to choose between two extremely undesirable outcomes: being used to feed the sick needs of the emotional vampire by accepting an insulting gift with a great display of "appreciation" (and thereby accepting and absorbing the distortion of reality implied) or enduring his rage at your failure to feed him. You were set up. Your Ndad knew what your response would be.

I also have to say that your story gave me a creepy feeling of my own: that your father was inappropriately sexually interested in you, even if just emotionally. Did he also walk in on you in your bedroom or the bathroom?  His behavior makes it very clear that he viewed you as his "girlfriend" at least in your father-daughter interactions.

Quote
I don't really know how they are about this now... I've pretty much tuned them out.

In reality the double bind DOES have a way out, and you took it as best as a child can. Of the two bad choices, you picked your Ndad's demeaning and rage, but in doing so you defended your integrity. Playing the narcissist's game is corrosive to the soul. Facing them down means that someday you can walk away without turning into them.

This story was also very interesting to me because my Nmom was (as I've said before) a world-class bad gift giver, and she also pulled a couple of scenes very similar to this. For a while, when I was in graduate school, each Christmas I would ask for something I really needed: a pair of trainers one year (they were my everyday shoes); a bicycle another year, so I could get around. Both years, while I was at her house prior to Christmas, Nmom said to me "I was thinking of giving my old pair-of-trainers/bicycle to you and getting myself a new one." The bicycle she wanted to give me was old and rusty, and I had no way to ship it home. The "trainers" were 1) old-style rubber-soled tennis shoes which are very bad for your feet, particularly if that's all you wear 2) Old and used 3) Not my size. It's hard to believe she forgot the latter fact. Like many women my age who grew up barefoot, I have wide feet; my Nmom has narrow feet. One of her favorite digs when I was a child was to gaily say to shoe salesmen "I don't know where she gets those wide feet! Not from me!"

 I indignantly refused her "gifts" saying I didn't want her cast-offs. In a huff she said she wouldn't get me anything then since I didn't want her offerings. After I rejected the trainers I also got an emotionally extorting letter after I went home (a favorite trick of hers) saying that she was sorry I felt (emphasis mine) that she had offered me "cast-offs", followed by protestations of how she thought I would be happy to let her do something nice for herself, and how hard she had it with an unappreciative child like me. (A friend of mine read it and said incredulously "Your mother wrote this? This is infantile! It's kiddish!")

Your note has made me realize for the first time that I, like you, was set up. Previously I had simply assumed that my Nmom's crappy gift giving was simple selfishness. Having seen how many narcissistic goodies your Ndad got out of his free piece of promo junk I finally get: what a coincidence! that she was thinking of getting herself a new bicycle the very year I asked for one! And what a coincidence! that one year later, she was thinking of getting herself a new pair of trainers just when I asked for the same thing! She also knew what my response would be. She had installed those hot buttons, and she pushed them as hard as she could. My response really couldn't have been anything else. The bicycle was unrideable and untransportable. The shoes were unwearable. What is more, my mother WASN'T thinking of getting herself a new pair of trainers and giving me her old ones. I once counted: she had over 200 pairs of shoes including many pairs of trainers. She deliberately set me up because she wanted to demean and punish me. When I responded angrily to her selfish manipulation, she sent me a note full of projection; her selfish and demeaning behavior became mine.

Damn...am I the only one who ever thinks "How did I MISS this?"

Thanks again GS and Hope.

Chris2

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2006, 09:39:28 PM »
Hi Chris,

  Re:  the narcissist's child always has a balance due

With my parents, it was always clear that the balance due was to be rendered in the form of never questioning anything and simply agreeing to be a puppet on a string. But... they're not full blown NPD. My mother is very N'ish; I'm really not sure what my Dad is.
 For 3 years I was married to a totally NPD man with every single criteria for the disorder running at full tilt, making my parents seem fairly innocuous... till I landed here at this group.

Before I forget, I've heard of something called "Inverted Narcissism", but haven't researched it. It's occurred to me that maybe my father fits that bill... he has certainly enabled my mother's absolute domination of the home throughout their marriage.

Re:   I wonder if mimicry is one of the ways in which narcissistic parents look for payback? They want you to like what they liked, because that feeds the never ending hunger for validation.

Yes X 100,000. Each wanted me to be their own personal carbon copy. Unfortunately, they are like the old Oscar/Felix Odd Couple in personality, so I pretty much felt like a wishbone for most of my life.

To clarify re: the freebie trinket my Dad gave... it wasn't for a birthday gift or any special occasion, but he did make a bit of a grand presentation about it and his "fit" when I "rejected" it stands out in my memory as one of his few temper tantrums in all these years.

Yes to the immaturity and dramatics.

He played you and your mother off against each other.

Yes, always and in all ways. Constantly.

Did he buy himself cheap nasty things too?

No, he let my mother do that for him. She always had the best, while he made do with a little old junk. If she bought him a new pkg of socks, for instance, she'd put one or two pair into his drawer and stash the rest, as though to ration them out, so that he wouldn't mess them all up at once. She has always treated him like a child. He will wear old junk shoes, sometimes 2 different socks... he gets a kick out of looking like a bum... except for Sunday mornings, when he puts on the air of royalty for "divine service". ugh.

Think about what a normal person would do with a junky promo object.  Dispose of the object, or ask if the potential recipient wants it, making it clear that the object had been a giveaway

Yes, you're right.  :?  I feel sick. Sometimes I think he's creepier than my mother. But she will give me her old, used junk, or anything that is flawed. For years I was like the keeper of all her old treasures. She'd buy new and give me the old stuff, like I was s'posed to cherish it in perpetuity. Once she had purchased a cheap plastic serving dish, clear blue plastic, but messed it up trying to get the price sticker off with nail polish remover. The acetone fogged the plastic, making it no longer "perfect", so she presented it to me. Why not... I wouldn't mind. Obviously, my standards are far lower than hers.  :(

Sorry this is out of order... kinda freaking me out here. Back to the trinket gift...

You were set up. Your Ndad knew what your response would be.

It never occurred to me that he was so calculating, but he sure is bizarre. You may be right. He has certainly set me up in the years since, trying to use me as his sounding board when he complains about my mother's latest antics. He goes on and on in weekly letters about how much he misses us, etc, etc. , but he never listens, not to anyone. His hearing is quite bad, but he has hearing aids... won't use them. And when I finally wrote recently, a lengthy letter, telling him that I was planning to be baptized, he ignored it completely.
He's written back since, but never mentioned the matter. He's a dyed in the wool Lutheran (infant baptism and all) and raised me as such. I guess his way of addressing my baptism was to tell me some quote of Martin Luther's re: not having beer in heaven, so we should drink all we can here. Then he wrote, "I'm glad to be a Lutheran."  That was it. He drinks alot. Always has.

umm... he makes alot of wooden stuff for my kids. One really odd thing is this huge rectangular block ... about 2 1/2 ' X 1'.... with my son's name and dad's name and a year date, all in cut out wooden letters .... good Lord, the thing looks like a grave marker. Other things he's made for my son, who's 10 now, often have Dad's name and age marked on them... very morbid stuff. He's 86 now and so for 16 years he's been telling us all how he's past his "threescore and 10". Good grief.

Did he also walk in on you in your bedroom or the bathroom?  His behavior makes it very clear that he viewed you as his "girlfriend" at least in your father-daughter interactions.

No, not that I recall and this never occurred to me either. He's very touchy feely. As a little girl, I was supposed to come kiss him goodnight. Not my mother, him. They were side by side in their bed, but I don't remember even walking over to her side. Just him.
He always made sure his lips were good and wet and gooey just for that. I hated it.

I have 4 children. My 15-yo looks alot like me and he has always paid special attention to her. I have seen her shy away. Well, he always smells like liquor, so I shy away, too.

My children's father sexually molested my oldest. My dad was at our house visiting when the whole mess came to light, many years ago.
When I told him what I'd discovered, he asked me, "Are you sure she's not making it up?"  For years, he didn't get it. Wouldn't come to terms with it. He kept encouraging me to get back with the pervert. He was so dense, almost easy-going about it that finally my mother asked him whether he had ever done anything like that. He told me she'd asked him that and how much it hurt him.

I'd better stop.

Hope

On edit.... another weird deal... he'll make his wooden crafts for other people at church and then tell them that it's from me... what in the world that is about I have no clue. He sends me cards that other people have sent him and then tells me to save them for him. It's like he wants me to see how important he is to these other people. I really don't understand.









« Last Edit: October 02, 2006, 09:44:53 PM by Certain Hope »

gratitude28

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2006, 10:57:51 PM »
Wow, guys, it's like our own little Halloween story here - creepy definitely describes it!!!!

If I asked for a certain gift, I would get something almost like it and then they would be disappointed if I didn't like it as much as what I had asked for.

The way they continue the "double bind" now is usually through the fact that we don't live near them. I get constant crying about how they want us closer, but when we are there, my dad has to work, they have no money to go out, the kids annoy my mother, yada yada yada. My mother says, "Even if you lived in Hawaii, at least you'd be in the States." As if they'd come to Hawaii any more than they come here. And it's almost as far. And then she started whining that we weren't going to move until a few months after my husband got back from Iraq (we are waiting for jobs to open and to make sure the kids finish school). She got "really upset" about that and went on about how she didn't understand it...

Christmas still goes on the same way. They buy the kids SO MUCH stuff. I ask them just to get a few things. My kids are amazed every year... "is that another box?" I am talking 30 presents each or more. It is too much. Usually we open all of them, use some right away, save some for a bit later. And a lot of times they bought what they already bought. You know, one time a while back I tried to explain that the kids would rather spend time with them than have stuff.

And then the other thing is that they are always in huge debt. So the spending makes me so upset. I know it is not my money, but why do it? And the years we have not had a lot (or no) money, we have told my husband's parents that we could not do presents. But my mother would be so offended... You know, I get them special things when I travel... outside of the holidays often, but that doesn't count. My mother has to be showered with stuff.

Ugh... thanks for expanding on the topic. I know you guys would have good ideas/stories. major yuck on the wooden headstoney thing BTW. Yuck. And used shoes???? Ewwww...

Love you all,
Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

Gaining Strength

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2006, 11:29:45 PM »
Quote
My children's father sexually molested my oldest. My dad was at our house visiting when the whole mess came to light, many years ago. When I told him what I'd discovered, he asked me, "Are you sure she's not making it up?"  For years, he didn't get it. Wouldn't come to terms with it. He kept encouraging me to get back with the pervert. He was so dense, almost easy-going about it that finally my mother asked him whether he had ever done anything like that. He told me she'd asked him that and how much it hurt him.

The other day I heard that my father had taken one of my cousins on as a project.  He took her to a very nice jewelry store and bought her jewelry for no particular occassion.  Then he went across the circle and bought her two new tires for her car and then while they sat in an sandwich shop he went on and on about how she should make an effort to see her father and how nice her father is etc., etc. 

Her father has been divorced from my father's sister for almost 30 years.  My cousin is somewhat butch, has limited social skills, has never married and has had only one boyfriend about 20 years ago. But the real kicker is that my uncle sexually abused her when she was a child.   This has never been talked about openly but my family knew this without knowing any of the details.  So why would my father do this to her?  Besides my father never cared for my uncle.  He tolerated him when he and my aunt were married but had very little respect for him.  So what is in him NPD mind that he would pretend there was anything good in this man - was is really about me rather than about my cousin?  Who knows - How could he just pretend that the sexual abuse never happened?  In part because he doesn't believe in sexual abuse.  I know, I know - that sounds insane but still ----------.

GS

gratitude28

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2006, 11:56:03 PM »
GS,
I have a story like that too. My aunt's brother was a doctor and was sexually molesting his young patients. My aunt absolutely had nothing to do with him after he was discovered doing this. My mother says my aunt is unbelievable horrible bacuse "he is family."
I honestly believe that in my mother's sick mind, this makes sense...because I think she was abused by someone in her family.She gets so upset (and strangely so) about sexual stuff that I just can't believe otherwise.I also think she likes my sister so much because she looks like her, and in my mother's mind, that is the person she is or should have been. Her family is tremendously screwed up and she pretends they were some ideallic group like none ever seen.
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Hopalong

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2006, 02:01:10 AM »
I am so sorry to hear about these horribly toxic parents.

Also in some cases sounds as though the abusive father's spouse internalizes his contempt for the female, has it for her daugher/s.

Tragic all around...

Hops
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Stormchild

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2006, 07:18:36 AM »
Hi Hope

Being completely nonjudgemental about all of these things is ultimately very freeing, and I'm sure you are already reaping the many and varied benefits of that newfound stance.

When considering these things from the stance of mercy, it's clear that God loves narcissists just as much as He loves everyone else [in fact, the narcissists are sure He loves them more than anyone].

What does love mean in this context, and how do we apply it to others who are not only capable of harming us, but observably and reliably inclined that way?

That's a rhetorical question; the answers will be different for every one of us.
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Hopalong

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2006, 07:34:58 AM »
I think it works best to apply love to narcissists in the same way Steve Irwin applied it to crocodiles. He genuinely loved them, seeing predators as belonging on the planet as much as do prey. But he did know how to keep a safe distance. And if a person wasn't equipped to interact with them he would tell that person Don't Try This at Home (in your own life).

So maybe Irwin would be a well-defended shrink who works with Ns, is completely realistic, and never gives out his home address or phone number?

I do absolutely believe narcissists should be loved. But with individual Ns who have been brutal manipulative cruel neglectful twisted, whatever, in our individual lives...I think love for them should be no different than "love for animals." IOW, you can recognize that an N is a broken human being without placing yourself anywhere near them or allowing them to take over--or keep their former position in--your mind. You can love and have compassion for all human beings without deluding yourself about nature, without marching into the crocodile's jaws with a chicken in your hand.

I don't think love/compassion and discretion are mutually exclusive.

Stormy, I was hoping for someone to talk to this morning. Hi.

Hops
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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2006, 07:53:18 AM »
Hops, I couldn't agree with you more; in fact, I've spent most of the last two years here advocating precisely this approach... now that I think of it, and see it summed up so concisely. Thanks for clarifying my own thoughts too.
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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2006, 03:30:11 PM »
Hi Stormy,

  Being committed to not judging other peoples' motivation is very freeing. It also takes alot of practice. There's plenty of positive reinforcement upon success, though, so I expect the habit will be fully formed in due time.

   One of the best practical aspects I'm discovering is that I'm learning to speak with anyone, on virtually any topic, without getting bogged down in (and in the past, silenced by) concerns about the other person's intentions. It's such a relief to be able to simply respond to words and actions without tripping over suspicions.

  I don't think that N's believe God loves them best. In fact, I think they are convinced that their Creator despises them, which is, in a nutshell, the essence of the problem, imo.

Hops,

I agree with this:  I don't think love/compassion and discretion are mutually exclusive.

I also don't think that love and justic are mutually exclusive.

Hope

 

Stormchild

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2006, 09:16:56 PM »
One of my favorite writers - no longer living - Roger Zelazny, said it something like this:

"You can know a hundred different reasons why someone is [an S.O.B.], but when it really comes down to it, the only thing that matters is that someone is [an S.O.B.]." :mrgreen:

A relative youngster  [at a site for female cartoonists [!], http://www.houseoffun.com/action/guide.html ] puts it thusly [asterisks mine]:

"Life's much too short. Don't waste time b****ing about a*****es and a****le behavior. If you can do something about it, go ahead, but otherwise just go on and forget it. If someone's a complete jerk, no amount of your time and energy is going to change them, so why work yourself up? Spend that time doing something you enjoy. If you hate someone, fine, but don't make it your career." :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Words to live get a life by. Not judgemental [don't make it your career], but very much aware [yes, Virginia, some people are jerks, and nothing you can do will change them. The sun rises, the tides come in, some people are jerks. Fact of life.] ;-)

Etiology and motivation are necessary if you need to do profiling to stop a serial killer - or determine the source of the deep buried shame you've been carrying in your heart since earliest childhood. But for sure, I don't need them when someone cuts me off in traffic. :cool:
« Last Edit: October 03, 2006, 09:18:37 PM by Stormchild »
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gratitude28

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2006, 09:38:53 PM »
Wow,
I LOVE the croc description and I love your ideas here. I think this is what has been bothering me so much lately. You are so right. I need to love my mother, yet be cautious and I am now equipped to expect her behavior. I think I have been so screwed up lately because I was back in a "hate rut." I was no longer seeing her for what she is... a very screwed up child and instead seeing her as the person who hurt/hurts me. I have been clutching so tightly to resentments lately. I have been trying to pray... trying to get back to wishing for the best and good...
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams