Recovery day one - again.

[October]

I find it very difficult to give up on people, and here I am, trying to get away from my abusive friend.  I want to text, or phone, or email or anything to say how I feel, but it does no good, so I am trying hard to regard this as day one withdrawal, and draw a line.

This is really difficult.  He can be supportive, up to a point, but always on his own terms, and because there is so little other support around, it has always been better than nothing.  Anyway, I deleted the text number, to prevent me sending increasingly desperate messages as the days go on, and I have 'lost' the email address too, which I think is best.  And I almost fell into the trap of writing a final 'dear John' email to say what I was doing, but didn't.

So now what do I do?     Who am I if no longer John's friend?  And, after all, what difference does it make?  And how do I return his books and house key?  Or is that not actually my problem?

I am not used to this kind of thing.  And the trouble is, he knows me too well.  But I think not as well as I now know him.  He told me once he had no empathy, and like a fool I thought he was joking.  I think now he was telling the truth, and what I thought was empathy was just a kind of detached interest in seeing another creature squirm.

 

[penelope]

Could you drop his books and house key off on the porch when you know he will not be home?  If this seems to scary/tempting for you, why not mail them to him?

bean

[IamNewtoMe]

Hi October,
Sorry you are going through this.  You deserve so much better from your friends.  He has no empathy?  Sounds like you are very wise to walk away. I like Bean's idea.  His stuff isn't really your "problem" per se, but it would probably be a relief to make a clean break.

[WRITE]

He told me once he had no empathy, and like a fool I thought he was joking.  I think now he was telling the truth, and what I thought was empathy was just a kind of detached interest in seeing another creature squirm.

you responded as a human does October- thinking he was reaching out to you instead of providing his caveat for when he acted out.

I do understand- letting go is so painful for me too, do you understand yourself and why you hang on for grim life ( and it is a grim life the way someone treats you once they realise you'll stick with them no matter what they do to you ) ?

I was emotionally abandonned by my mother as a baby, I see now I am acting some of that out when I cling to someone. It took a lot of therapy for me to 'get' it though, it was the most painful bit of the puzzle. If I make someone else love me despite the odds it soothes a tiny baby inside me.....

And I still give people a 100 chances and never totally write someone off. But no more clinging or desperate behaviour.

how do I return his books and house key?  Or is that not actually my problem?

I wouldn't worry too much about them, get them out of sight, give them to a mutual friend, don't do anything.

In fact getting used to not doing anything when there's emotional agitation inside you is probably the key- so focus on other things, do somethig else.

Because you are pointing at the heart of the problem right here:

He can be supportive, up to a point, but always on his own terms, and because there is so little other support around, it has always been better than nothing.

You do have other support- us- and you can fill your life with good positive things and people.

Who am I if no longer John's friend?

you're the same person you were last week with a little more self-esteem and not prepared to let a feeling of emptiness drive you to doing and saying desperate things.

If he's going to come around he will October, if he's not then walk away. It's okay, you will not die from the pain, it will fade once you stop trying to make him care more and detach.

Who else cares? Focus on them, and look for more people to give your love to who will take it and enjoy it, and give you feedback and warmth of their own.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Hopalong]

you will not die from the pain, it will fade once you stop trying to make him care more and detach.

YES.

Simple and right.

October, hon, look around...go out to positive things, events, readings, music, group activities, volunteering things...

You will find new friends when you make yourself available to them.

I am SO happy to hear you've made this choice about him (I'm very impressed by your wisdom in stopping the email...that is so smart. Toxic addictive email is an awful thing when relationships end.)

hugs,
Hops

[chris2]

And how do I return his books and house key?  Or is that not actually my problem?

Immediately get going on returning them in the mail. Allow yourself to obsess about this guy until they are in the mail. Keep telling yourself that once they are in the mail you will no longer think about him or talk about him. Once they are in the mail, keep your vow. Every time he pops into your mind, visualize a giant broom that sweeps him out as though he were a noxious insect. Repeat as necessary. If you find anything else of his, unless it is of value, immediately give it away, throw it away or donate it, as appropriate.  This is a trick I used when I cut off contact with an alcoholic friend. It took a while, but it worked, and I didn't wear out my friends, because I talked about it once, then I stopped.

I deleted the text number, to prevent me sending increasingly desperate messages as the days go on, and I have 'lost' the email address too, which I think is best.  And I almost fell into the trap of writing a final 'dear John' email to say what I was doing, but didn't.

I am not used to this kind of thing.  And the trouble is, he knows me too well. 

It does not make sense to attempt to contact someone over and over trying to force them to respond. In our society it is accepted to contact someone once. If it's important, and you are not sure your message was received, you can try once again. Then you must stop trying to contact them, because they don't want to talk to you. That is how normal people in society behave. When you tried to contact this man and he didn't respond, he was sending you a clear message that he does not value you in a respectful and socially accepted manner. No matter what he does in the future, that message has been sent. Good for you that you've gotten it.

He told me once he had no empathy, and like a fool I thought he was joking.  I think now he was telling the truth, and what I thought was empathy was just a kind of detached interest in seeing another creature squirm.

Long ago when I was young and trying to make a selfish man change so that he loved me the way I wanted to be loved, a wise older woman said to me "When someone tells you something bad about themselves, believe them." She was right. He had told me what he was like, once upon a time. He had said "I'm not good at relationships." Guess what? He wasn't good at relationships and I suffered because I was so narcissistic that I thought I could fix it for him with the specialness of my love. It would be different for me. It is an odd feature of narcissists that they often do warn you about themselves. They warn you once. If you then offer yourself up as a sacrifice, they will gladly take that sacrifice. (As an aside, this also holds true for narcissistic bosses. When you go to a job interview, listen very carefully to what they say about themselves. If they denigrate their other employees, or say or imply that they have difficulty with relationships, do not take the job.)

You now know this person is bad news and bad for you. The pain you are experiencing will end as long as you accept it and acknowledge that it will pass and you will be better for it, stronger, and above all, free. You will also have an incredibly valuable insight: if someone else doesn't meet you halfway, there is no relationship and there will never be a relationship.

Those of us who are children of narcissists learn our own lack of worth. We learn that only constant striving to please another person will save us from punishment. We learn that others' happiness is our only excuse for wasting oxygen by living. Consequently, when we go out into the world on our own, we undervalue ourselves. We give too much and ask too little and we persevere when withdrawal is the right choice. At the same time, we've been to believe that we can fix other people's lives. Then we end up being the victims of alcoholics, people with NPD and others who behave narcissistically. I think all of us who have suffered as a result of our abusive upbringing has had the experience you are having at least once! So hang in there. You aren't alone, it doesn't last and you don't ever have to go through it again!

Chris2

[October]

Could you drop his books and house key off on the porch when you know he will not be home?  If this seems to scary/tempting for you, why not mail them to him?

bean

He is away most of the coming week, so I could take them.  But I don't want to seem like a stalker by going in that direction at present.  Actually, I know someone who lives nearby, so I could leave them with that person, a mutual friend.  That might work, but it doesn't have to be now.  I can do it in a few weeks time, once I feel better.

I have a terrible feeling if I wrote here all that I have done to win this person's love it will seem as if I am rather odd.  I really am happy with very little in return for what I do, like it says in the Bible feeding off the crumbs falling under the table.  It is when the crumbs are denied to me, and I am told I am wrong to feel used, that it becomes much clearer that this relationship is built on fantasy, perhaps on both sides.

Thanks Penelope.

[October]

Hi October,
Sorry you are going through this.  You deserve so much better from your friends.  He has no empathy?  Sounds like you are very wise to walk away. I like Bean's idea.  His stuff isn't really your "problem" per se, but it would probably be a relief to make a clean break.

I think you are right.  I will set a date, and take the stuff to his friend's house then.  But not now.  Now is time for me.

[October]

I do understand- letting go is so painful for me too, do you understand yourself and why you hang on for grim life ( and it is a grim life the way someone treats you once they realise you'll stick with them no matter what they do to you ) ?   

The nearest I can get to the reason is that I grew up with an Nmum, and an older brother.  So if I do not have a brother figure around, I do not know who I am.  It is as if I have another half, which is missing, and he completes it.  First my brother, then my h, then after the divorce my first counsellor, and then John.  The most important part of this relationship to me is having someone to laugh with, and share time with.  I am not really sure who I am without an older brother like this.  This is why I think this is very difficult for me to let go of.  First because the emotional attachment is at a level I cannot seem to reach, and second because I was always used to being dominated by ob, and I adored him for it.  He was the best I had at a time when there was no other parenting around, and so I am really easy to hook into an abusive (platonic) relationship with men.

And I still give people a 100 chances and never totally write someone off. But no more clinging or desperate behaviour.

I think it is nice not to write him off.  Clearly there must be something good about him, somewhere, for me to stick with this one for almost ten years.  But I think if I have become an irritant to him, then it is right to have some space.

In fact getting used to not doing anything when there's emotional agitation inside you is probably the key- so focus on other things, do somethig else. 

You are soooo right on this one.  I have hoovered the upstairs of my house today, and tried to keep busy as much as I can, and talked with girlfriends on the phone (both of whom think it right to stop this relationship now), and I have picked up the phone ten times or more and put it down again.  Same with writing an email.  Wrote it.  Deleted it.   

Because you are pointing at the heart of the problem right here:

He can be supportive, up to a point, but always on his own terms, and because there is so little other support around, it has always been better than nothing.

You do have other support- us- and you can fill your life with good positive things and people.

Thank you.   

you're the same person you were last week with a little more self-esteem and not prepared to let a feeling of emptiness drive you to doing and saying desperate things.

If he's going to come around he will October, if he's not then walk away. It's okay, you will not die from the pain, it will fade once you stop trying to make him care more and detach.

No, I will not die from pain.  If that were possible, I would have been dead years ago.  I am a Survivor.   

Who else cares? Focus on them, and look for more people to give your love to who will take it and enjoy it, and give you feedback and warmth of their own.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I really need to find a way to get out of my house more. 

Can anyone help with that?  I am social phobic, because I get triggered by rejection into ptsd symptoms, which then last days.  Flashbacks, nighmares, lack of sleep, anxiety, exhaustion, that kind of thing.  If I stay home I avoid it all.  Used to be, if I went to John's, and spent the day, I could pretend to be normal, and just fit in.  But now I need to do something to avoid closing down further, which is what I do when I have this kind of thing happen. 

Thanks, Write, and everyone.  I feel so alone, and it is good to have people who understand.  (((((((((hugs)))))))))

[October]

October, hon, look around...go out to positive things, events, readings, music, group activities, volunteering things...

You will find new friends when you make yourself available to them.

I am SO happy to hear you've made this choice about him (I'm very impressed by your wisdom in stopping the email...that is so smart. Toxic addictive email is an awful thing when relationships end.)

That all sounds so hard.  Going out into the garden is difficult enough, without all that.  D wanted a paper today, so I drove her to the nearest shops, but I sat in the car, and I felt as if I were just nothing.  I would have gone into the shop if she wanted me to, but it was a relief not to have to face people.

I think I am happy with it as well.  Somewhere.   

[October]

Once they are in the mail, keep your vow. Every time he pops into your mind, visualize a giant broom that sweeps him out as though he were a noxious insect. ... It took a while, but it worked, and I didn't wear out my friends, because I talked about it once, then I stopped.

I have talked today with two friends, and I don't intend to carry on.  As you say, once is ok.  Both say that it is time for me to say enough is enough, because if what I am to him is not enough, then nothing will ever be enough.

When you tried to contact this man and he didn't respond, he was sending you a clear message that he does not value you in a respectful and socially accepted manner. No matter what he does in the future, that message has been sent. Good for you that you've gotten it.

Yes, I got that message all right.  The message was, it is ok for both me and him to be hurt, as long as his other friend is ok.  He said, he felt bad about leaving my house so soon after getting there, but J needed to get back home.  The way I see it, if he felt bad, he knew it was wrong.

He told me once he had no empathy, and like a fool I thought he was joking.  I think now he was telling the truth, and what I thought was empathy was just a kind of detached interest in seeing another creature squirm.

Long ago when I was young and trying to make a selfish man change so that he loved me the way I wanted to be loved, a wise older woman said to me "When someone tells you something bad about themselves, believe them." She was right.

She certainly was.  This is one to teach d, as soon as poss.  Don't do what I did, learn from it.   

You now know this person is bad news and bad for you. The pain you are experiencing will end as long as you accept it and acknowledge that it will pass and you will be better for it, stronger, and above all, free. You will also have an incredibly valuable insight: if someone else doesn't meet you halfway, there is no relationship and there will never be a relationship.

I have known it, and then forgotten it, many times.  This is the sad thing.  I am not sure where love ends and addiction begins.   

Those of us who are children of narcissists learn our own lack of worth. We learn that only constant striving to please another person will save us from punishment. We learn that others' happiness is our only excuse for wasting oxygen by living. Consequently, when we go out into the world on our own, we undervalue ourselves. We give too much and ask too little and we persevere when withdrawal is the right choice. At the same time, we've been to believe that we can fix other people's lives. Then we end up being the victims of alcoholics, people with NPD and others who behave narcissistically. I think all of us who have suffered as a result of our abusive upbringing has had the experience you are having at least once! So hang in there. You aren't alone, it doesn't last and you don't ever have to go through it again!

Chris2

Thanks, Chris.  This is certainly true of me, and if nothing else said d of Nmum, then this description would be a very good indicator.  I think I will allow one week for moping, and then make some plans for moving on. 

Would anyone else know the feeling that you think through the other person.  Instead of thinking, what would be best for me to do, it is filtered through what would John want me to do.  I am finding even writing here, this filter keep getting in the way, and having to be pushed aside.  I have to find out much more strongly who I am, and where my own boundaries end.  My family had very poor boundaries, and do not respect any kind of integrity, whether of time, home or whatever.  Except they never ever touch.  I think it is called enmeshment.  I am afraid I might have this with John too, so need to disentangle.  Maybe those books need to go sooner, rather than later.

[SilverLining]

Hi October.  You might try looking at it as an adventure and a challenge.  What happens to you if you let go of this so called friend?  What is the worst that might happen?  You might have to spend some time alone, and this is not necessarily a negative thing.  Maybe solitude is actually preferable to toxic relationships?   

I think Chris2 made some excellent comments.  Children from an N dominated environment seem to lose (or never learn) the necessary defenses against destructive people and relationships.  Just this morning I dodged an encounter with a toxic anti friend.  First I avoid the guy, then I feel guilty for doing it.  Why do I feel guilty for avoiding abuse?  I have figured out it is a product of my upbringing, when putting up with toxic people was necessary for survival.  It's powerful conditioning, but now I can make a choice. 

It seems to me you have the situation figured out, now it's just a matter of getting through the "withdrawal" phase and into a new sense of freedom.  The philosopher Sartre once said "life only begins on the other side of despair".   As you said in the last sentence, it seems a good idea to get rid of the books e.t.c.. sooner than later. 
 

[October]

Hi October.  You might try looking at it as an adventure and a challenge.  What happens to you if you let go of this so called friend?  What is the worst that might happen?  You might have to spend some time alone, and this is not necessarily a negative thing.  Maybe solitude is actually preferable to toxic relationships?   

I think Chris2 made some excellent comments.  Children from an N dominated environment seem to lose (or never learn) the necessary defenses against destructive people and relationships.  Just this morning I dodged an encounter with a toxic anti friend.  First I avoid the guy, then I feel guilty for doing it.  Why do I feel guilty for avoiding abuse?  I have figured out it is a product of my upbringing, when putting up with toxic people was necessary for survival.  It's powerful conditioning, but now I can make a choice. 

It seems to me you have the situation figured out, now it's just a matter of getting through the "withdrawal" phase and into a new sense of freedom.  The philosopher Sartre once said "life only begins on the other side of despair".   As you said in the last sentence, it seems a good idea to get rid of the books e.t.c.. sooner than later. 
 

Thanks Tjr.  You are right about the guilt.  Lots of that.  However, made it through day two, with only one attempt to compose an email, which I then deleted.  And no temptation at all to pick up the phone.  It is getting easier.   

Email started, why is it that when I say 'I am hurt', this sounds to you like 'I hate you, your friends and everything you stand for.'

Then I thought, who cares, and deleted it.   

As for the worst that could happen, with clinical depression of 9 years standing, I don't think we want to go there.  It is not going to happen.   

[pennyplant]

Hi October,

I've been away this weekend and will read this thread more thoroughly in the next few days.  For the email problem though--I am currently at the end of the second month of not emailing my N-co-worker.  One of the things I did at first was to compose an email saying what I wanted to tell him, then send it to myself.  I stored these in their own folder and then read them again a week or so later.  And was so glad I hadn't actually sent them to him!!!  Reading them later I was able to be more objective and could see that he wouldn't have answered them anyway.  Which would have hurt my feelings badly.

I still look for emails from him, I'm still not detached completely.  I expect that to take a long time.  That is part of the process of letting go, too.  But he hasn't sent any during this time either.  Obviously, I was a very small part of his life.

He told you he has no empathy.  I guess he would know, wouldn't he?  I should have believed my N when he told me certain things.  It was actually all out there on the table the first day.  But I spent nearly two years disbelieving the evidence.  It was a learning process, but all in all, I'm not sure learning what I learned was worth the pain those two years have contained.

I don't have any good suggestions for a way to socialize without having this person around.  I struggle with that myself and am muddling along and making only very slow progress.  I would say, resist the urge to just jump into the next new friendship that comes along.  That person will probably be N-like or otherwise not good for you.  Maybe just spend some time observing and assessing.  In doses you can handle.  I know some people who are homebodies and happy with that.  They only go out once in awhile.  I do know you have PTSD.  But maybe it will turn out that underneath it all you are a homebody at heart.

Also, I would mail him all his stuff and be done with it.  Don't go to his house or his neighborhood.  That will just stir it up again.

Love, Pennyplant

[IamNewtoMe]

I really need to find a way to get out of my house more. 

Can anyone help with that?  I am social phobic, because I get triggered by rejection into ptsd symptoms, which then last days.  Flashbacks, nighmares, lack of sleep, anxiety, exhaustion, that kind of thing.  If I stay home I avoid it all.  Used to be, if I went to John's, and spent the day, I could pretend to be normal, and just fit in.  But now I need to do something to avoid closing down further, which is what I do when I have this kind of thing happen. 

Hi October,

I was wondering how you are doing with the withdrawal - hope you are ok.

I don't know if I have PTSD, but I struggle so much with what you describe.   I am afraid to go grocery shopping or put gas in the car. I get nervous at the movies, because I am afraid the 16-year-old-movie usher might chastise me for something or other.  There is always tension in my body, tiring.   I get nightmares, insomnia, exhaustion after percieved rejection (real or not).  So, the following thoughts are probably the bliind leading the blind....

In past years, I  detested superficial conversations, because I desperately wanted a deep, meaningful interaction.  I wanted to connect and be accepted, understood.  But in the past couple weeks, I have been trying to enjoy the smaller interactions - like a confidence builder.  I had a conversation with an acquaintance yesterday. I had to spend part of the day with this person for work, and would not have done it otherwise.  We just talked about movies, laughed about junk food, talked about work.  Nothing special, but it was nice.  No one talked badly about anyone else.  It was good to know that A) when I have to, I can carry on a conversation, and B) not everyone on the planet is a mean-spirited user. 

Lately, I am trying to pat myself on the back for experiencing (and surviving) every tiny social interaction.  If I have to run in a shop to buy milk (oh, horror, anxiety!), and the cashier doesn't even smile or say Hi (may I crawl under a rock now, please?!?), I remind myself that their behavior has nothing to do with me, and commend myself for surviving the interaction.  If instead we have a two sentence exchange of something resembling superficial conversation, that's good, too.  I'll take it. Good on me.  I am working on these baby steps now, and will work on finding closer friends another day.

On another note: Pretending to be normal - that is my goal sometimes, too.  It would be so nice to pretend like all my fears were gone and just carry on a conversation with someone.  But, I recently read a book called "There is Nothing Wrong with You" by Cheri Huber.  It uses the principles of Zen to teach self-love and acceptance, so that no matter how you are feeling (even if you are feeling like a loner/homebody), you can feel like that is normal and ok, because it's just a part of who you are at this point in your life.    Not to say that you can't have goals - like if you think being more social would bring you happiness.  So I try to remember that book whenever I am beating myself up for being a homebody or having anxiety.  Just a thought.