Recovery day one - again.

[reallyME]

Oct,

Long ago when I was young and trying to make a selfish man change so that he loved me the way I wanted to be loved, a wise older woman said to me "When someone tells you something bad about themselves, believe them."

that is sooooooooo true!  i remember Jodi telling me "L, if you are doing something and I see that you are right, i will roll out the red carpet for you!  But just be glad you are not on my bad side, know what i mean?" (said with an evil glare in her eye, but a very flat look on her face)

Later in the relationship, her husband upset her by making noise when her mother had asked me to play worship music on my keyboard.  She refused to talk to him for almost the rest of the day.  She came to me and said "remember what I told you?  I feel he was WRONG toward you, so I'm pissed!  Aren't you GLAD you're on my GOOD side?"  (an eerie feeling came over me)

Even later, while I was at her house pointing out the evidences of their family being majorly DYSFUNCTIONAL, esp for an ministry family, I was "treated" to a taste of what she had told me...I was the bad guy on her "bad side" and she almost took me to court over having EXPOSED what really went on behind those closed doors!  She told me at one point, "you don't know how CLOSE I came to having the police over to your house to confiscate everything I ever gave you!"

Vindictive B****! is what I had thought at that time and SICK PERSON is what I KNOW now!

Oh also, Jodi told me in the beginning, "I love DEEPLY"...deeper than most people do.  I should have interpreted that as "I love OBSESSIVELY and also PASSIVE/AGGRESSIVELY and I love until I decide it's time to DEVALUE you for not being WORTH my love in MY MIND, when you dare to DISAPPOINT ME!  It's an all black/all white thing, where you are the princess of their life for a while, but then, when you fail to be exactly what they want, you are the DEVIL himself and need to be and are deserving of PUNISHMENT!

usually withdrawl of affection, retailiation, humiliation, false accusations, projections, bait and switches, double-messages, power posturing,  or just out and out CRUELTY!

welcome to my former world

[Hopalong]

I had a "friend" at church whom I recognized as N but still found interesting to talk to.
I told him truthfully a few months back that he had really let me down (he'd made all sorts of promises about very specific things he would do to help me in my job search and never did one of them...it was all "spout", no whale).
He apologized profusely and I think he felt ashamed.

Anyway, saw him Sunday for the first time in a while and his whole demeanor toward me has changed completely. Cold as ice.

Shudder.

Hops

[October]

Oh also, Jodi told me in the beginning, "I love DEEPLY"...deeper than most people do.  I should have interpreted that as "I love OBSESSIVELY and also PASSIVE/AGGRESSIVELY and I love until I decide it's time to DEVALUE you for not being WORTH my love in MY MIND, when you dare to DISAPPOINT ME!  It's an all black/all white thing, where you are the princess of their life for a while, but then, when you fail to be exactly what they want, you are the DEVIL himself and need to be and are deserving of PUNISHMENT!

usually withdrawl of affection, retailiation, humiliation, false accusations, projections, bait and switches, double-messages, power posturing,  or just out and out CRUELTY!

welcome to my former world

This all rings so true.  There are elements of narcissism in all my friends, and very deeply in my family, who are all either N or co.  But the immediate withdrawal of affection, retaliation, accusations, anathematising and pathologising; these are the signs of a true N proficient, as you say. 

The cruelty of this kind of action, towards a person who they know full well to be already damaged, is totally beyond comprehension, unless you bring the N explanation into the picture, when it then makes perfect sense.

This week I have swung between thinking I am vastly overreacting for the sake of just a few minutes.  And then I think of all that I have done, and the love I have shown this person, and I think, where has that gone, not in my mind, but in his.  There is hardly a corner of his house that he can look towards, and not find me there.  And then I look around my own house, and there is nothing of him here at all.  A book I was given for Christmas, and was not able to finish reading because it is just not me.  The books I borrowed in order to write something for him.  And the keys which have now been sent back in the post, without a covering note.

The first day this happened, when I was in so much pain, I saw Meatloaf on the telly, and that is helping me such a lot, "I would do anything for love, anything you've been thinking of ... but I just won't do that."   

Or, from a Christian perspective, I have lived on the crumbs which have fallen from his table for so long, while giving him the first of my strength (after d of course) and the best of my time, and now he has denied me even those crumbs.  So, the pain remains but is fading, and I am sure I am right to put an end to this.

Thanks, ReallyME   

[October]

I had a "friend" at church whom I recognized as N but still found interesting to talk to.
I told him truthfully a few months back that he had really let me down (he'd made all sorts of promises about very specific things he would do to help me in my job search and never did one of them...it was all "spout", no whale).
He apologized profusely and I think he felt ashamed.

Anyway, saw him Sunday for the first time in a while and his whole demeanor toward me has changed completely. Cold as ice.

You did well to cope with that, Hops.  I know I cannot be where John is at present, because I am too easily hooked in again.  He has been, in fantasy at least, so much a part of my being strong and carrying on.  If I saw him as you saw your N, that would be very bad for me.  And I have no doubt whatever that he is capable of it, and on a whim could be either way towards him, at this moment.  It would make no difference whatever.

There is one other thing that has really bothered me over the past day or so.  The holiday which he took last week was to Poland, and he visited Auschwitz with his friend.  In the car on the way back from the airport he said that it did not touch him emotionally, and that he and his friend had a very difficult time preventing themselves from laughing and sniggering at the tour guide, who had very poor English, and they imitated his accent for me.  Admittedly, I would have found it difficult to be ushered around too quickly, but I am not sure that a sneering attitude is one which many people could adopt in such a place.  That strikes me as very N indeed.  I am not sure what others would think.  They said they found the suitcases moving, but very little else, and that they felt nothing whatever in the showers, because they were too busy ridiculing the tour guide's accent and very poor English.   

When I am very badly hurt I know that I lose my sense of humour, so maybe I am just missing the whole point here, and it is funny to hear someone talk about the Chinese outside, instead of the chimneys.  From the inside, I cannot tell.  Is it me, or is it him/them. 

This is where I lose touch with reality, because my internal reality is too fragile to withstand a strong assault from other people with very invasive egos, and who I allow close enough to be able to alter my reality like this.  It is a real struggle to fight my way out of it.  Usually I get there in the end, but with anyone else at all, I have a friend to help me, in John.  He can see it if it is anyone else at atll.  But if it is him, then suddenly I am not able to see the other person's point of view, which is so untrue it is heartbreaking.  My whole problem is that I cannot see my own point of view until it is far, far too late.

[October]

Hi October,

I've been away this weekend and will read this thread more thoroughly in the next few days.  For the email problem though--I am currently at the end of the second month of not emailing my N-co-worker.  One of the things I did at first was to compose an email saying what I wanted to tell him, then send it to myself.  I stored these in their own folder and then read them again a week or so later.  And was so glad I hadn't actually sent them to him!!!  Reading them later I was able to be more objective and could see that he wouldn't have answered them anyway.  Which would have hurt my feelings badly.

I still look for emails from him, I'm still not detached completely.  I expect that to take a long time.  That is part of the process of letting go, too.  But he hasn't sent any during this time either.  Obviously, I was a very small part of his life. 

Well done for managing two months of this!  I am now in day four, and think that a minor miracle, to be honest, so two months is wonderful.  However, it is as people said.  The pain does get less, and I am managing to move forward, in baby steps.

He told you he has no empathy.  I guess he would know, wouldn't he?  I should have believed my N when he told me certain things.  It was actually all out there on the table the first day.  But I spent nearly two years disbelieving the evidence.  It was a learning process, but all in all, I'm not sure learning what I learned was worth the pain those two years have contained. 

Somehow, it never is worth it, is it?  Sometimes people say, that which does not kill you makes you stronger.  That is not always true.  Sometimes it takes a great deal out of you, that you cannot afford to give, whether physically, emotionally or financially.  All three, in my case.  And spiritually as well.

  I know some people who are homebodies and happy with that.  They only go out once in awhile.  I do know you have PTSD.  But maybe it will turn out that underneath it all you are a homebody at heart.

By nature I am introverted, but at the same time can be very outgoing and find making friends the easiest thing in the world.  Give me half an hour with anyone, and they will think well of me and my extraordinary empathy, consideration, compassion etc etc.  Being an ACON makes that second nature.  But whether I am capable of achieving mutuality in friendship, where I gain as much as I give, or at least where it never arises as an issue, is a different matter.  Of late I have been too fragile even to psychic assault from complete strangers that I have chosen to hide.  But it makes my home into a prison of sorts, because I long to be out there, among people, where I belong. 

Also, I would mail him all his stuff and be done with it.  Don't go to his house or his neighborhood.  That will just stir it up again.

The keys have gone, as I said.  They were the worst.  I don't normally have them, so it was right to send them back.  The books are too heavy at present, but if I go to my cousin's house at Christmas I will drop them somewhere en route, because by then I will know this one is dead, and I will be stronger to go round nearby.  But I will not go to the house.

[October]

I was wondering how you are doing with the withdrawal - hope you are ok. 

I am not sure ok is the right way to describe it, but I am alive, and I have not texted, emailed, phoned or anything else all week, which is so amazingly strong of me, I can hardly believe it. 

Meanwhile, my central heating has broken down, and I have some kind of cold or something. Best described as low grade infection, of indeterminate kind.    

So, to sort the heating, I am hoping and praying that I can do it myself.  This happened last winter and cost me about £200 to fix, and I don't have that kind of money lying around.  I have been to the builders store, and bought some system cleaner, and I have asked a girlfriend of mine, who also doesn't have a clue what to do, to come over one day, and have a trying to sort it out together day.  And if it fails, we can have a laugh about it together.  Apparently, I have to partially drain the system, then put the cleaner in, and then fill the system again and run the heating.  At that point, I am hoping that the block is only minor, and the cleaner will be able to reach it and clear it.  If not, I will need to call a plumber in.  But if I am very lucky indeed, the system will work, and then I can run it for a month, and then drain it down again, and then put in what is called inhibitor, to stop it clogging up again.

Lord, have mercy!!!   

I told my gf, why is it that we are so totally, utterly alone, at times when we need help and support from those we have helped and supported endlessly for months and years.  What makes us so completely isolated.  And of course, part of the answer is that we seem from the outside to be so capable, so able, and people ignore what we say, in favour of their fantasy that we will cope because we always have, and we willl survive because we always have.

But at least at present the focus is firmly on me, my house, my d, my needs.  And until I sort everything that needs to be sorted, and that only I can sort, then there is less time for worrying about anyone else. 

I don't know if I have PTSD, but I struggle so much with what you describe.   I am afraid to go grocery shopping or put gas in the car. I get nervous at the movies, because I am afraid the 16-year-old-movie usher might chastise me for something or other.  There is always tension in my body, tiring.   I get nightmares, insomnia, exhaustion after percieved rejection (real or not).  So, the following thoughts are probably the bliind leading the blind.... 

It sounds like ptsd symptoms.  If you do an online search to find out more, it might help.  One good place is the Sidran foundation.  The exhaustion after rejection is because of retraumatisation, and it builds in layers over time, preventing you from going out.  I think this is well worth you looking into, because it takes specialist care to get out of this, once you get in.

It also takes strong social and family support, which for an ACON is just impossible.  Which, in my worst moments, leads me into complete despondency.  I cannot do this on my own, and yet none of the support systems which would help me are anywhere to be found.  Here online, and two friends.  I am not sure it will be possible without more, and yet how do I find it, when I am not capable of choosing the right people?   

A) when I have to, I can carry on a conversation, and B) not everyone on the planet is a mean-spirited user. 

A, ditto,  B, are you sure?     Thanks for the book recommendation, and thanks too for the support.  I really appreciate it.  ((((((((hugs))))))

[reallyME]

Oct:   Or, from a Christian perspective, I have lived on the crumbs which have fallen from his table for so long, while giving him the first of my strength (after d of course) and the best of my time, and now he has denied me even those crumbs.  So, the pain remains but is fading, and I am sure I am right to put an end to this.

It fascinates me that you used this analogy of "crumbs from the table" because during a trip to stay at a cabin and BOND for ministry with Jodi and another lady, Jodi did this spiritual thing with us, where she told us to break open our "alabaster box" and give Jesus whatever we needed to ask forgiveness for.  When I told Jodi that I had already talked to Jesus and my slate was clean, she became INSENSED and told me "FINE, then this is not for you.  Go to BED!"  After that, Jodi ignored me and spent most of the time with the other lady, cuddling her, "ministering" to her, to a point where I was feeling like "HEY THAT IS MY BEST FRIEND, NOT YOURS!!!"  Yes, I was very JEALOUS, especially since, before this trip, the other lady was trying to divide Jodi and me.

One day on the trip, I brought Jodi a note, when I couldn't stand anymore of the "punishment."  The note said "even the woman in the Bible got some CRUMBS!  I would be happy to settle for even that!"  What I meant was that I wanted Jodi to pray for me, talk to me...ANYTHING BUT IGNORE ME AS A PUNISHMENT FOR HAVING ALREADY DEALT WITH MY OWN STUFF AND NOT NEEDING HER HELP!  the weird thing is, Jodi is big on preaching about how clingy and needy people are, so I was trying my darndest to show that I could stand on my own, and was PUNISHED for it.

~L

[October]

Oct:   Or, from a Christian perspective, I have lived on the crumbs which have fallen from his table for so long, while giving him the first of my strength (after d of course) and the best of my time, and now he has denied me even those crumbs.  So, the pain remains but is fading, and I am sure I am right to put an end to this.

It fascinates me that you used this analogy of "crumbs from the table" because during a trip to stay at a cabin and BOND for ministry with Jodi and another lady, Jodi did this spiritual thing with us, where she told us to break open our "alabaster box" and give Jesus whatever we needed to ask forgiveness for.  When I told Jodi that I had already talked to Jesus and my slate was clean, she became INSENSED and told me "FINE, then this is not for you.  Go to BED!"  After that, Jodi ignored me and spent most of the time with the other lady, cuddling her, "ministering" to her, to a point where I was feeling like "HEY THAT IS MY BEST FRIEND, NOT YOURS!!!"  Yes, I was very JEALOUS, especially since, before this trip, the other lady was trying to divide Jodi and me.

One day on the trip, I brought Jodi a note, when I couldn't stand anymore of the "punishment."  The note said "even the woman in the Bible got some CRUMBS!  I would be happy to settle for even that!"  What I meant was that I wanted Jodi to pray for me, talk to me...ANYTHING BUT IGNORE ME AS A PUNISHMENT FOR HAVING ALREADY DEALT WITH MY OWN STUFF AND NOT NEEDING HER HELP!  the weird thing is, Jodi is big on preaching about how clingy and needy people are, so I was trying my darndest to show that I could stand on my own, and was PUNISHED for it.

~L

It looks as if you committed the sin of having another god besides her.  Ns want to be worshipped, and they want to actually be god.  They want to be the minster who everyone turns to, and regards as second only to Christ himself.  Except in their heart of heart, they are second to nobody.

I am glad the crumbs analogy works for you too.  I think Ns find ACONs such as us to be useful to wipe their feet on, but somehow never manage to get the balance quite right.  I am sure that for a few moments of considerate prayer you would have taken a lot from this person, just as I have taken a lot over the years.

I think also the idea of divide and rule is an N one.  When I have several friends together, I am happy for them to mix and get to know one another.  But the Ns keep their 'friends' compartmentalised, and everything goes through them, if you know what I mean.  Such as the relationship you describe - you might see it as a triangle, with equal people at the corners.  But Ns only see it as them at the top, and everyone noding off from them, not having any other relationship, of which they are not a part.  If there are a hundred people around, then they are in the middle, and everyone else is a spoke in their wheel, with everything going through them.  No cross connections of which they are not the centre.

[reallyME]

Oct,

you have a truly BRILLIANT MIND!  I loved your analogy in what you wrote, about the wheel with the spokes, with everything centering around them and going through them!  WOW!

With this other lady, I'll call Kate, and Jodi and me, here is how it went.  Jodi and I were close and then Kate and I were close, as I was ministering to Kate.   Well Jodi was out of town and I contacted her to help give me advice about Kate, which she did.  Kate told me "When Jodi comes back, please don't forget about ME."  Of course I introduced Kate to Jodi and immediately Kate began trying to woo Jodi over to her and away from me, by being sweet when all 3 of us were together, but lashing out at me privately where Jodi never knew.  I would tell Jodi about how "Kate is not acting nice to me in private like she does when it's all 3 of us," but Jodi didn't believe it at first...until I got SMART!  During one of Kate's lambastments of me over the phone, I TAPE RECORDED HER and later played it for Jodi.  Jodi, having an image to of course keep up, was horrified, and so told me "look, you don't have to be nice to Kate anymore if you don't want to, ok?"  Kate and i clashed big time from that point on, and eventually Jodi and I ditched her altogether so we could have our sicko "relationship" as a dyad instead of a triad.  Until I spent 6 weeks with her, everything went ok, after that, well...you know the rest of the story.

[October]

Oct,

you have a truly BRILLIANT MIND!  I loved your analogy in what you wrote, about the wheel with the spokes, with everything centering around them and going through them!  WOW!

Sadly, Ns can't cope with competition, and particularly hate competition where the third person is empathic and loving.  Too much of that around and their own sham love gets shown up for what it is.

If you think of genuine sacrificial love as sunlight, and Nlove as a torch, as long as it is dark (someone is needing love) then the Nlove is a lot better than nothing, and the person who sees that it is lighter than it was will be grateful and affectionate to the N.  But then if daylight comes along, a genuine compassion and giving, then it is impossible for anyone to still need the torch to see by.  Even if very grateful for it, people will naturally turn to daylight, as they will naturally turn to love.

Except for Ns.  In daylight they become sulky, angry, passive aggressive, jealous; you name it.  They will do anything to drive the sunlight source away from them, and from the third party, so that for the third person darkness returns, and the N can once again shine forth the brilliance of their torchlight love.  Ns can fake sunlight, but they cannot sustain it for long, and if you look close, it is all about them, and lacks integrity.

A true friend will not care how many friends you have, or what support you gain from them.  She will be happy for you, and with you, and will love your friends for your sake.  An N will sneer at your other friends behind their backs, deride them to you, and pathologise their behaviours.  She will also do all she can to prevent you receiving any crumbs from anywhere, least of all from herself, unless you are solely dependant on her.

Thanks for saying such nice things, btw.  Somewhere some part of me remembers that I can do some things, when I try.  But there are a lot of cobwebs over those memories, and it is good to hear it again.  (((((((((hugs)))))))

[reallyME]

Hey Oct...first, thank you for replying to my post.  I appreciate that.

I have a couple things to share about your reply

you said: 

A true friend will not care how many friends you have, or what support you gain from them.  She will be happy for you, and with you, and will love your friends for your sake.  An N will sneer at your other friends behind their backs, deride them to you, and pathologise their behaviours.  She will also do all she can to prevent you receiving any crumbs from anywhere, least of all from herself, unless you are solely dependant on her.

About the "sneer at your other friends behind their backs, deride them to you, and pathologize their behavior"...oh GOSH that was JODI!  I wanted her to "meet" my foster mom on the phone, but Jodi said, "no, I can't do that...you remember how, when you introduced Dove (past best friend) to people, and things got messed up, well same thing...and I just don't want that to happen.  Next thing I know, within about 3 months after that, she was telling me "All the mental issues you have, are based on your foster mother never growing up.  I think there is some demonic stuff going on there too.  IT's up to you, but IIIIIIIIIII don't want anything to do with her."  (this was said because I told Jodi that my foster Mom decorated her room with Winnie the Pooh)...soon after that, when we were not "friends" anymore, Jodi informed me that she was decorating her 13 year old daughter's room in "princess" pattern.  (I thought, "ummmmmmm what's wrong with this picture")

Another thing, I used to tape Jodi's sermons online with a tape recorder.  WHen I told her this, SHE FLIPPED OUT AND SCOLDED ME, telling me "you wouldn't take pictures of someone who was alseep would you?  that's like doing THAT!"  I informed her, "well, actually my family used to take pictures of each other when they were asleep."  SHE WAS HORRIFIED!!!

Again, after me split up, Jodi came to me, bragging about her photo she put online, and also telling me "oh don't worry if you miss my message (preaching), IT IS ON TAPE!   ....I HATE TO SOUND CALLOUS HERE, BUT I WANTED TO LITERALLY CLIMB THROUGH THE COMPUTER SCREEN AND CHOKE THE LIFE OUT OF HER AT THAT POINT, SAYING "HOW DARE YOUUUUUUUUUUU, YOU B****!"  (I also did not tell you...she first went to my former best friend, telling her that she believed I was a STALKER cause I taped her...and they both ganged up on me in a private room, comparing notes about how I acted while I was in both of their houses....but guess what....I TAPED THAT TOO!  HEHE, MY OWN FORM OF GETTING JUSTICE OF JUST HOW CREEPY AND CRUEL N'S AND BPD'S CAN BE!


Regarding getting crumbs from her, unless I was totally dependent on her...at that point, I WAS totally emotionally dependent on her approval, acceptance "prayers" (should be spelled "prey ers")....but that did not compell her to pay attention to me like she was to Kate, either.  It was all so weird and distorted for sure!
~L

[Plucky]

Who am I if no longer John's friend?

Hi October,
You are the very same person.  Because John was never really your friend, was he?  It was an illiusion.  So you migth as wel ask yourself,  'who am I now that I see the reality of what John is?'.   
Socially, well were I to advise you, it would be the blind leading the partially sighted.  The ways I distract myself are to read, go to libraries (librarians are usually nice and helpful, and you can learn and share so many things you are really sincerely interested in), and movies.  Make sure they are uplifting movies.

You could also volunteer at a homeless shelter, the homeless are not normally judgemental and it feels good to help others.  The fellow volunteers could be nice people too.

If you need to tell what you did, this is the place for it.  I don't think you can shock any of us.
Good luck
Plucky

[October]

Regarding getting crumbs from her, unless I was totally dependent on her...at that point, I WAS totally emotionally dependent on her approval, acceptance "prayers" (should be spelled "prey ers")....but that did not compell her to pay attention to me like she was to Kate, either.  It was all so weird and distorted for sure!
~L

I am glad things are becoming clearer to you, reallyME.  ((((((((hugs))))))

[Hopalong]

October,
He told you he had no empathy...and he was telling the truth. I was horrified by this (not because I'm naive and don't see this kind of behavior in the world, but because it felt like horror to imagine you being vulnerable to a person who would respond to Auschwitz in this way:

They said they found the suitcases moving, but very little else, and that they felt nothing whatever in the showers, because they were too busy ridiculing the tour guide's accent and very poor English.   

When I am very badly hurt I know that I lose my sense of humour, so maybe I am just missing the whole point here, and it is funny to hear someone talk about the Chinese outside, instead of the chimneys.  From the inside, I cannot tell.  Is it me, or is it him/them.

I think it's a very broken moral compass. People who are ethically absent from the world often do tell stories on themselves. They are really so awful that many of us (especially the traumatized) kind of shake off the stories...too much to contemplate. And on we go busily helping this person find rationalizations for "what's good about them."

I am SO impressed that you are not shaking off who he is, any longer. Sure he may be capable of some goodness now and then. But you are claiming now, for yourself, that in consideration of his general emptiness...that's not good enough.

Bravo!

Hops

[Plucky]

This is where I lose touch with reality, because my internal reality is too fragile to withstand a strong assault from other people with very invasive egos, and who I allow close enough to be able to alter my reality like this.  It is a real struggle to fight my way out of it.  Usually I get there in the end, but with anyone else at all, I have a friend to help me, in John.  He can see it if it is anyone else at atll.  But if it is him, then suddenly I am not able to see the other person's point of view, which is so untrue it is heartbreaking.  My whole problem is that I cannot see my own point of view until it is far, far too late.

Hi October,
I am not sure I understand what you are saying.  It almost sounds as if you feel that you are invisible or disappear in the face of a strong personality.  Or that you feel ungrounded unless another person is keeping you down to Earth.    And that John was filling this role for you many times, and without him  you feel you are missing an important part of being able to feel yourself?   Do you feel like talkign about this?  I know the touchy feely stuff is not my forte so I might be so terribly off base.  I just felt that you were saying something important and I am not sure I got it.

Plucky
PS the Auschwitz thing is beyond icky.  They are inhuman.  If John was your bellwether, I know you can do better than that on your worst day!