What do you say to a Narcissistic parent?

[tony001]

Assuming that the best way to deal with N parents is to detach from them, limit your contact if not sever it completely, what do you say when they confront you with this behavior? Especially if there are grandkids in the mix.

Let me elaborate. N parents are NEVER going to understand your point of view. To them, they have done nothing wrong, are the source of no hurt and are innocent victims in the situation. So if I choose to withdraw and have little contact with them, how do I explain this behavior. I mean I can't just come right out and say. "Because you are NARCISSISTS!" That will fall on deaf ears. Keep in mind I would like to have some kind of relationship with at least one of my parents.

What do I say when they come knocking on the door wanting to have "a little talk" about all of the distance and changes?

[Portia]

What do I say when they come knocking on the door wanting to have "a little talk" about all of the distance and changes?

I doubt they’ll be that upfront. That's what you might do, they probably won't?

What do you think they might do – turn up at your door and say “let’s not be silly about this, we’ve had our differences but we’ve decided to let bygones be bygones and we’re willing to forget the little problem we had” (implying you’re in the wrong).

And they won’t want to talk about anything in depth, unless it’s to make you feel guilty, there won’t be deep analysis (has there ever been, between you?).

Suppose they drop in to see your son. And they act as if nothing has happened. What would you do then? Flatter them I guess and keep your boundaries.

If you imagine all the scenarios, you might be prepared?

When did they last turn up unannounced at your place (i.e. it might not happen)?

[tony001]

You're right Portia, there has never been any deep discussion of feelings between us. And confronting me is something they probably will never do.

I guess I'll just act as if nothing has happened which is probably what they'll do.

It seems like I spend a lot more time than I would like thinking about these people.

[Jynna]

Tony,  Portia--

This happened to me.  They showed up at my door unannounced and demanded to know what was wrong with me.  Why do I keep them away from the kids, etc.......  (Ironically, they had seen the kids 3 times that week!)  They're usual m.o. was to wait until things blew over, but that didn't work this time, things weren't blowing over.

I think it's wise to just act like nothing has happened and they may not do anything.  However, if you are worried about it, perhaps it will help to arm yourself with a plan.

here is my experience, maybe it will help you:

When they showed up and demanded to know why I didn't let them see the kids, I told them (NDad & NStepmom) that I wasn't trying to prevent them from seeing the kids (true) that I had boundaries and I'm sure that they don't understand why (true).  This is where I should have stopped, but I didn't.

They pushed to know why I needed any boundaries.   I said that I have a lot of hurts from my childhood that I was working on healing and that our relationship is damaged because of these hurts.  (true)

They demanded to know what hurts I was talking about and my Nstepmom pushed to know what they ever did wrong.   I said that they don't respect my opinion about how my kids should be raised.  They took great offense at this.  they said that Of course they respect me, and they can't understand why I would think that they didn't respect me.

 But just a few weeks earlier I had asked them to please talk to me first before making plans with my kids.  ( they would take the kids aside and tell them to tell me that they were going to take them to the mall, etc)   When I told them that I wanted them to ask me before inviting the kids places, they FREAKED OUT!  How dare I suggest that they would need my permission to take the kids somewhere??   They hung up on me and wouldn't speack to me for a week.

Anyway, this interaction was the perfect example of them not respecting my requests,  But when i gave them that example, they said that they only objected because it was such a ridiculous request.   I said, calling my requests ridiculous is not respectful.  My dad said that I needed to have a good reason for making such a request.  I said, the only reason I need is that I am their mom.  He didn't argue with that.

My Nstepmom then used her great "change the subject" skill to ask what they had done to me as a kid.  I said that I wasn't going to talk about specific inicidents, that it would servce no purpose and that all they needed to know was that I was working on healing those hurts.    I wish I could have stuck with this line, but unfortunately, they pushed and pushed.  I wish I had used the broken record technique and just repeated myself, but I didn't.

I told them one of the minor stories of a time when I was very sad about missing my mother and my dad screamed at me and attacked me for being rude to my stepmom.   At the time, he essentially said, How dare I be sad, that hurts my stepmom's feelings!

Anyway, This is a direct quote from my dad,  "You are making that up, I NEVER did that and when that happened, it was clear to me that you were a very vindictive girl, you were deliberately trying to hurt (stepmom) and I didn't buy your manipulative tears and whining."   It's almost funny if it wasn't so sad.  BTW, I was eight years old when that happened, my dad thinks I was a vindictive eight year old.

At that moment, all my denials came crashing down.  What I once saw through a glass darkly, I now saw face to face.

I didn't try to answer my parents questions after that.  I just kept repeating that I do want them to see the kids, but it would have to be within my boundaries and I know they don't understand and I know that's hard on them, repeat, repeat, repeat.  Eventually, they kind of calmed down and gave up.

So, that's my story.  I apologize if I'm hijacking your post.

I suggest you get ready with some kind of statement that you can repeat to them ad naseum.

You do not need to tell them why.  If they want to know why, it's because that's how you choose to do things.  If they want to know why you choose to do things that way, it's because that's what you feel is best.  Or "that's what works for us."   You can acknowledge that it's hard on them, if you want, but don't say you're sorry. 

good luck!
 

[tony001]

Don't feel bad about hijacking my post Jynna, your parents sound a lot like mine. I also remember the subject of missing my biodad (he commited suicide when I was eight) being "not open for discussion" mostly because my mom was afraid it would hurt stepdad's feelings. That began a long pattern of calling me "melodramatic", "overly sensitive" and "the sensitive artist type". It wasn't ME or YOU who had emotional problems it was THEM! They couldn't feel emotions like healthy people do so they mistook our healthy emotional responses as extreme or out of the ordinary. There was nothing wrong with us, we were normal, it was they who were warped.

I remember when I was just a kid I found a letter my stepdad's mom had sent him right after he met my mom. I remember this line: "...I can't beleive you are in a relationship with a woman, and one with a KID!!! If you do not stop seeing this woman, you can't be our little Davey anymore......" I feel like God put that note in my hands as a window into why my stepdad is the way he is.

[tony001]

Jynna it's no surprise to me that your dad denied that he ever reacted to you in the way that he did when you were missing your mom. My mom blanks out entire portions of my past to suit her whims. She comes up with complete fabrications, the only problem is that I was there, and I remember, I know she hates that.

My parents hate to be told that they aren't allowed to do something with the kids. Our confrontation started over a toy gun that stepdad had bought for my son. Stepdad is a gun fanatic and has many loaded firearms laying around his house. So we made it clear that we didn't want our son playing with realistic looking toy guns. There are far more constructive things to play with and why blur the distinction between real and toy. Anyway for whatever reason we didn't want the child to play with toy guns, it was OUR rule. So I go to get into his truck one day and there's a shopping bag with a toy gun in it, a perfect replica of a Winchester 30/30. I tell him I don't appreciate it and it all went downhill from there.

He used to like to let my son play in the cab of his truck. I didn't like that. A motor vehicle is not a playtoy for a two year old. So the next time he comes over he takes my son out to his truck and then starts videotaping my reaction as I tell him not to let mty son play in the truck.

It's crap llike this, over and over.

[Jynna]

That began a long pattern of calling me "melodramatic", "overly sensitive" and "the sensitive artist type". It wasn't ME or YOU who had emotional problems it was THEM! They couldn't feel emotions like healthy people do so they mistook our healthy emotional responses as extreme or out of the ordinary. There was nothing wrong with us, we were normal, it was they who were warped.

wow, tony---this is exactly my experience.  My Nparents (dad & step) always said that I over reacted to everything.  The message I ended up telling myself was that "I make too big of a deal out of everything."   This stopped me from getting therapy for so long. 

Re: your parents blatant disregard for your rules--  it's good that you are starting out early in limiting their access to your child.  You are really doing what a good parent should.  If you allow this now, it will only get much worse (and potentially more dangerous) as your child gets older. 

Being responsible for a child really wakes us up, doesn't it?

[tony001]

Being responsible for a child really wakes us up, doesn't it?

It certainly does. It's like I had all of these primeival defense mechanisms going off in my brain when my parents were around my son.
I went to see a therapist about all of the emotions I was feeling. I asked her why, after having years of a "normal" relationship with my stepdad did I see a need to throw it away now that I was a father. She said it is because "healthy people do things for their children that they wouldn't otherwise do for themselves." I wasn't willing to remove myself from stepdad's presence but I would remove my son.

[pennyplant]

Hearing these stories makes me glad that my parents ignored me much of the time.  That messed me badly enough, but to be fed these lies and be blatantly blamed for everything that did or did not happen would have made me lose my mind.

Never give Ns too much information.  Never give them personal information.  It works better to say some empty little phrase that will smooth things over for the time being.  They will buy it.  They want to.  They can't handle anything that smacks of truth, especially if the truth is, there is something wrong with them.  They know what they did.  They know it is wrong.  They just can't help themselves.  It is too irresistable for them.  Like little children.  Since they have to do these things, the only way to deal with possible guilt or repercussions, is conjure up a lie and then forget it ever happened.

Tony, can you move away?  Being in different states from my mother for most of my adulthood saved me a lot of grief.  I'm only just now beginning to appreciate all the trouble it has saved me.  Now that we are in the same state for the time-being, I do appreciate the fact that they live an hour away.  Even that much distance has been a great help.  Very inconvenient for my mother, since she has a job working between 12 and 16 hours a week you know, just too hard to make that drive very often.  Phew.

So, that's my other recommendation--move away if possible.

Pennyplant

[tony001]

pennyplant-

It wouldn't help to move away, they would just follow me. I don't have to worry about stepdad, he has been sulking for a year and a half now, and unless I make the first move I don't expect I'll have a relationship with him anymore. Mom comes over about once a week and spends an hour or two, I see big changes going on for her (hopefully this is not just my fantasy), she has become a lot more tolerant of our requests and is really listening to us. My mom has definite narcissistic traits but she is nowhere on the same level as my stepfather.

You're right though, they take a little information and chew on it for days. My wife was really frustrated during my sons early toddler years and made an off-handed remark, more of a joke than anything: "Some days I think I could hurt him." My mom took that tidbit and ran with it. During "The Conversation" both my parents told me that my wife was potentialy abusive and shouldn't be trusted alone with my son. They would love to see me get divorced, even better fall on hard times and have to move in with them (cold chill up spine), then they would have me right where they want me. But guess what? I'll live under a bridge before I live with them. After my first marriage failed I was living with them, I was so ready to get out of there (after a week), when I rented a house I slept there with no electricty and no bed. I slept on the bare floor in the dark, that was preferable to sleeping under their roof.

[reallyME]

I was reading all the replies to this original post, and now I'd like to give my personal input.

Usually people who were very stamped down and are still feeling intimidated as adults, cannot speak up to their parents or take a stand in keeping their children away from them.  I have no problem keeping mine from my parents, as I finally relocated to get away from it.

My personal view is that children need to keep away from POISON...unless it is in a cupboard and they are supervised...by saying this I mean that you need to keep your TOXIC so-called-Parents (who never deserved that honor) AWAY FROM YOUR CHILDREN, unless YOU ARE WITH THEM AT ALL TIMES!  I do not know many true parents who leave their child alone with all the room cleaners within reach....it is the same way with N "parents"...KEEP THEM AWAY OR KEEP THEM SUPERVISED  PERIOD

[pennyplant]

Mom comes over about once a week and spends an hour or two, I see big changes going on for her (hopefully this is not just my fantasy), she has become a lot more tolerant of our requests and is really listening to us. My mom has definite narcissistic traits but she is nowhere on the same level as my stepfather.

I hope she really is changing, too.  As long as your boundary with your step-father is very, very firm, like a brick wall, it should be okay to see how your mother does.  Is it possible she is just being "good" until she thinks your guard is down?  My sister used to be able to do that.  She could be "good" long enough to make you think everything was okay.  But as soon as something displeased her, it was right back to the old nonsense.  Even her son recognized this problem with her when he was only 16 or 17 years old.  He left home at that age and got himself through high school and into the Air Force.  He was very wary of letting her back into his life before things were settled with the Air Force because otherwise, "she would mess things up" for him.

Just something to think about--probably that has already occurred to you.  It sounds like you have really been through it with your parents.  I'm glad you are enjoying your own family and giving them the love and care that they need.  It is possible for families to be happy!

Pennyplant

[tony001]

Mom comes over about once a week and spends an hour or two, I see big changes going on for her (hopefully this is not just my fantasy), she has become a lot more tolerant of our requests and is really listening to us. My mom has definite narcissistic traits but she is nowhere on the same level as my stepfather.

I hope she really is changing, too.  As long as your boundary with your step-father is very, very firm, like a brick wall, it should be okay to see how your mother does.  Is it possible she is just being "good" until she thinks your guard is down? 

This is possible. She does seem to go through phases. My mom's narcissism seems to manifest itself in being crass and tactless. For instance we were eating dinner and my wife was sharing some of her parenting ideas. My mom says "Well my mom raised 8 kids and I raised one and I guess *****'s just got all the answers!" and then last Christmas my wife made cookies, my mom stops by our house on the way over to my uncle's house. My wife gives her a plate of cookies as a gift, my mom says "Ooh, I'll take these over to (Uncle)'s house, that way I'll feel like I've contributed something." She completely minimized my wifes giving gesture, twisting it around as an opportunity to bring positive attention to herself as a giving person. That's what they do, they minimize us.

[Hopalong]

Tony, RM,

I supervised many of my D's hours with her grandmother and it didn't make a difference because I was still hypnotised. Still obedient.

I didn't wake up to Nism and its potential to harm and twist my D until long after she was grown, to my enormous regret.

Hops

[pennyplant]

Yes, it seems like the only way they know to raise themselves up from the nothing they think they are is to drag down everybody else.

I'm glad you are so supportive of your wife.  She must get her feelings hurt frequently with comments like those.  She is certainly kinder to them than I would be!

Pennyplant