mental disorders and the need for company?

[Dawning]

Hello Everyone.  I am getting some strong intuitive sparks that my SO is heading towards manic-depressive state and, based on his letter (parts of it I have copied below) is attempting to drag me there too.  What do you all make of the letter?  Am I overreacting?  Does this letter make sense?  I haven't the foggiest idea how to reply.  I care about him but I can't rescue him.   Any feedback?  Am I with a manic depressive Fabian (alluding to another thread).... Really, there is no one around me to talk with about this and I truly wonder whether he is saying something here that is profound and I am just not getting it.  I want to help; I just don't know how  Is there also something wrong with me?  Should I mention this group to him?  It sounds like he really needs someone to listen to him and tell him all the right things.     I feel absolutely and completely helpless towards this guy - and I am at a complete loss.  

I hope you are okay. I do not know whether what I sent makes any sense. I have detected some defensiveness coming from you, and if you are aware of this then that is fine, but if not then it just gets acted out. The noise of experience.
    How am I? Shaky. One the surface, sound, below that deeply disturbed. I would not quite say personally disturbed, but it doesn't really make a difference. I can feel the desire and temptation of experience, and am also struggling not to live there. I feel very alone. Alone with what I know, the challenge of life, of living, and the distrust in anyone being able to stand with that.  I read the newspapers and see the insanity of man moving and expressing itself. I sit in conversation with friends at a restaurant table and see the confusion in what is said, the various investments, and how even  clearness has little space because the investments are more important.
   Hopeless. There is no chance for man given this, from friends, from governors. The complexity is so much no one knows what to do. Virtually everyone is hiding in their little corner of action. All I see is collapse. I see overwhelming disaster. Catastrophic change on all fronts. Climate, culture, science, the brains intelligence, on and on and on. Shit! No one to trust, no one I can trust, and an overwhelming problem in my lap.
   Nor am I sure you can really understand this. You have given most of your life to "personal development", and the personal is not the universal, is not the all of man. Not the all of living. You seem concerned for the content of "you", and not its basic structure. Have you ever asked what it is that is growing with "Growth", what self-esteem is actually, not what I think it is. Who it is that is being "inspired".
 
 
       

[seasons]

Dawning,

First I want to give you a huge hug of support. I think your friend needs medical help, maybe crying out for it? I don't know the dynamics.
Has he spoke to you like this before? Is this out of character, loss of job, relationship etc.

I'm here, even if all I can do is listen. I'm sure the wisdom of direction will come to you quickly via this wonderful board.
I wanted to add you are not over reacting. I'm sorry I miss he is your S.O.
When did you recieve his email? Could you give a gentle reply back? Or would that escalate the situation? Sorry, I wish I could help you more.......

seasons

[Dawning]

Has he spoke to you like this before? Is this out of character, loss of job, relationship etc.

Thanks, seasons.  Yes, he has spoken like this before...I thought maybe I could offer some advice...ie, changing one's lifestyle, accepting the support of others....but sometimes (not always) he gets angry when I give him advice.  He says that I don't *get it* and then I get this overwhelming desire to run away before he tries to drag me off into manic depressive-land - where I spent many years and have no intention of going back. 

As for a job, he is talented in what he does but "prefers to live hand-to-mouth" and he has admitted to still being phychologically attached to his FOO.  As for our relationship,  ????????  It seems like nothing ever satisfied him for very long.  It is like a thought will pop into his head or I will not say/act in an enlightened way - and he gets in a foul mood and, suddenly, nothing is good, nothing is the way it should be, he feels let-down and disappointed.  When he is happy, he is beautiful and natural and wonderful but he can change so quickly into a harsh, judgemental person which is a real shame cause he has a lot to offer.  Of course, telling him that he gets mad and tells me that I am "missing the point."  I want to help him, to say the right things but I don't know how.

Thanks for listening.

[seasons]

Yes, he has spoken like this before...I thought maybe I could offer some advice...ie, changing one's lifestyle, accepting the support of others....but sometimes (not always) he gets angry when I give him advice.  He says that I don't *get it*
Pushing you away like that makes me feel like he needs more serious intervention.

and then I get this overwhelming desire to run away before he tries to drag me off into manic depressive-land - where I spent many years and have no intention of going back.

 
Yes, Please take care of you. You sound like you know what you may have to do for your own protection. (be safe first)

 

As for our relationship,  ???????? 

It seems like nothing ever satisfies him.  He is always on about something.

Always? That was be so exhausting to be on the receiving end. Has he ever gone for medical help? Is he on medication? Or if he is does he take what is proscribed?

Does he have a friend you could ask for back up?

This feels extremely deep. How long have you been together if you don't mind me asking? Does he come backup? Snap himself out of it? What is his cycle?

I have more questions than answers. If your are concerned about his safety could you call an anonymous hotline for help? Just a thought I'd through out there.

thoughts of your safety as well as his.

[Dawning]

(Boy, am I glad I wasn't offered a part in *Death of a Salesman*  )

Thanks for your questions, seasons, and for your empathy.

I will be speculatively blunt:  in another thread, i was talking about herds on the serengeti as a metaphor for our FOOs.  My sense is that the role, given to him, is that everyone else in the FOO do everything in their power to protect him.  Maybe he is chomping at the bit.  Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong....but why does he verbally attack me?  Why is there something always wrong with me?
Btw, I told him how I felt about his role in his FOO and he laughed - his laugh of *possible* truth.

He is on not on prescribed medication.  He has no alcohol or drug problems.  We are having a long-distance relationship at the moment.

One of my questions is:  Is there any significant research/literature out there having to do with mentally unstable people needing to make others (usually those closest to them, I would imagine) mentally unstable too?  If this is the case, why?  Can one generalize?  Maybe it would help if I could consider it from this perspective.

[seasons]

this is starting to sound like an abusive relationship to me/I feel your are excusing his behavior, which is not exceptable in any healthy loving relationship.
You deserve more, I'm so sad you can't see that yet. It is not YOU. But it is you who is choosing to be in this relationship. I've been their and it really doesnt matter how many people tell you to get out, you can do better, your better off without him etc.
I always new the answer deep down in my heart. But I wanted to be nice, give chances, forgive, change him (never).
My heart really goes out to you and this cycle, you are hurting, confused, blaming yourself..... would you want this for someone you cared deeply about. I hope not.
Isn't time you take care of you.

You are in my thoughts and prayers as you work through this.  We are always here ((((Dawning))))

[Dawning]

(((((((((((seasons)))))))))))))))  thank you.

Ok, let's assume this is an abusive relationship.  Abusive is when his angst or manic-depression or whatever is making him try to drag me down with him.  I have no plans to move in with him at this point... (edited:  which is huge because, for the past 1.5 years, I've been envisioning him as being the one I would settle down with..)
But I can't write this person off.  Actually, I think it is even possible to be friends with him.  Am I nuts for thinking this?
I also don't feel that it is my job to rescue him and he certainly wouldn't appreciate that so - even if I was in rescuer mode - I know better than to go that route. 

Should I make any suggestions to him?  If he is, indeed, crying out for help, how can I help him? 

What is the nature of an abusive relationship?  If someone is abusing someone else, do they know it?  Am I just as sad and hopeless as he is by not wanting to throw in the towel?  Is he - oh gawd...- like my mother, tough as old bones, and can just carry on whether I am around or not?
I didn't want to be in her line of fire so I got *out of the way.*  It is different with him and I can't figure out why.

Btw, I just got that email today.  I am not sure what my next step should be.  Compassion seems so crucial.  What is the best way to be compassionate in a situation such as this? 

[seasons]

Ok, let's assume this is an abusive relationship.  Abusive is when his angst or manic-depression or whatever is making him try to drag me down with him.

Would he go for help to manage his manic-depression? If this is as serious as it sounds isn't that the bottom line, go get help and we will go from there.

Am I just as sad and hopeless as he is by not wanting to throw in the towel?  Is he - oh gawd...- like my mother, tough as old bones, and can just carry on whether I am around or not?
I didn't want to be in her line of fire so I got *out of the way.*  It is different with him and I can't figure out why.

You got out of her way, that is huge, what an accomplishment and a statement of self-love and respect for yourself. Hugs!

Your asking great questions of yourself. You speak from your heart which is hurting and confused.
You need remove all the toxic crap you have been given, you are wonderful, bright, caring, thoughtful person. I hear such harsh words you speak of yourself, it is so painful to hear your scars you are still carrying.  deep down my first thought right now is how you treat yourself. I feel terrible that I lack what you need right now. All the brilliant minds and hearts are still sleeping I think. Please wake up, we need you.

I

am not sure what my next step should be.  Compassion seems so crucial.  What is the best way to be compassionate in a situation such as this? 

You could take a break, a small one and seek the answers to all your insightful questions. Knowledge is power, with that you may feel stronger to evaluate this relationship.

I'm still here............(seasons) 

[moonlight52]

Hi Dawning ,

Has this fellow been diagnosed as bipolar ?Is he off his medicine???? DOES HE HAVE A DOCTOR ??He sounds depressed.
I do believe as he is an adult what can you do unless you are married he is just your friend..
Do you live together????I am trying to understand if you are not married why you feel so responsible for him?????
I would guess you do care very deeply...... but if emotionally supporting him is harming you just suggest he see a professional and protect your own feelings.

Can he get help for him self as an adult he can see his Doctor I presume if he has been diagnosed as bipolar he has a professional person to go to.
All one can do for a friend is suggest if they are depressed is to go get help and be a friend and then what else can you do ??
 He sounds sadly depressed but unless he has been diagnosed with bipolar maybe he is not bipolar and it is depression...................
Does he have any bipolar symtoms?????? The email sounds like depression but I am not a doctor......

You or I or anyone can not make guesses as  non professionals  as to what diagnoses your Friend has if any..........................
What do you think a Doctor would be able to evaluate better...yes

So much love to you and more
moonlight

Anyone and there loved ones have difficultly when someone is depressed
( whatever the diagnoses would be)
But first he would need to see a doctor or else any one else is just guessing...............
P.S. I do not know what SO stands for?????????

[moonlight52]

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((Dawning)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))


Well the emails could be bipolar.............. letters and frantic communications frantic phone calls etc. could be bipolar
but who knows some "normal" folks have been known to behave in this manner as you have described
we as non professionals are just guessing........

so much love to you Dawning

moon


Quote from Dawning
"I care about him but can not rescue him " Very wise Dawning          

no one rescued me I went out and got my own Doctor (SHE HELPED ME RESCUE ME)
This only applies to an adult.......................................................................... children we need to help much more yes.......

CB no one has ever mis spoke around here (except for  maybe that person that started that "lies" thread........
Love to you CB and Dawning.........I only wished I had a parent like you CB.................. my parent tried to tell me my Doctor was wrong........

[Gaining Strength]

I hope you are okay. I do not know whether what I sent makes any sense. I have detected some defensiveness coming from you, and if you are aware of this then that is fine, but if not then it just gets acted out. The noise of experience.
    How am I? Shaky. One the surface, sound, below that deeply disturbed. I would not quite say personally disturbed, but it doesn't really make a difference. I can feel the desire and temptation of experience, and am also struggling not to live there. I feel very alone. Alone with what I know, the challenge of life, of living, and the distrust in anyone being able to stand with that.  I read the newspapers and see the insanity of man moving and expressing itself. I sit in conversation with friends at a restaurant table and see the confusion in what is said, the various investments, and how even  clearness has little space because the investments are more important.
   Hopeless. There is no chance for man given this, from friends, from governors. The complexity is so much no one knows what to do. Virtually everyone is hiding in their little corner of action. All I see is collapse. I see overwhelming disaster. Catastrophic change on all fronts. Climate, culture, science, the brains intelligence, on and on and on. Shit! No one to trust, no one I can trust, and an overwhelming problem in my lap.
   Nor am I sure you can really understand this. You have given most of your life to "personal development", and the personal is not the universal, is not the all of man. Not the all of living. You seem concerned for the content of "you", and not its basic structure. Have you ever asked what it is that is growing with "Growth", what self-esteem is actually, not what I think it is. Who it is that is being "inspired".

Dawning - I very clearly hear his depression and his abject lonliness.

He says he is " deeply disturbed" but that he is "also struggling not to live there."  He clearly wants to be in another place because where he is is so painful.  In his depression his point of view is so terribly slanted to seeing the dark side of this life and he is afraid that his reality (which he sees as THE reality) will cause him to be rejected by everyone. "Alone with what I know, the challenge of life, of living, and the distrust in anyone being able to stand with that. "

I have lived many years is darkest depression.  In that state I am angered by others non-chalance about the doom around us.  In that state of depression I feel that what I see is what is real and that everyone else - worried about Christmas and non-essentials have glossed over the REAL darkness of life and therefore they are inauthentic.  He doesn't think you can see what he sees and he thinks that your work on yourself is focusing on the small picture instead of the large.

I relate what he is saying with my experience in deep depression.  I am going to go out on a limb in two ways: one is that simply based on your post it appears possible to have a relationship with this man if he gets some help and two can you respond by opening the door of dialogue by telling him that he sounds deeply depressed and ask him if he would like some help? 

Because you are long distance you can create enough room to be there for him if he will allow it.  When you get these dark communications remember you do not have to "take it on" yourself.  It is just writing, it is not yours.  Just read it with sadness for him and compassion but stay detached.  Can you stay detached?

I hope he gets some help.  Depression is a miserable place.  You are not responsible for his state of mind and you can not "fix" him but you can have compassion for him whether or not you are in relationship.  Practice compassion without feeling responsible for him.  That is a great gift you can give.

My heart is with you as you deal with this. - Gaining Strength

[WRITE]

You're confusing two issues: mental illness and abusive behaviour.

Whether someone's well or not their behaviour is still accountable and their own responsibility- and so is your response!

You have to ask yourself why you're so affected even at a distance, and why it's having such a powerful effect on you?

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[SilverLining]

Really, there is no one around me to talk with about this and I truly wonder whether he is saying something here that is profound and I am just not getting it.  I want to help; I just don't know how  Is there also something wrong with me? 

It seems a profound statement concerning his own state of mind, but as a description of "reality" it's grandiose, one sided and limited.   Many of the phrases seem totally nonsensical and suggestive of mental illness.   All I can offer  is don't get caught in the trap of thinking he has said something important and profound about YOU.   It appears to me he is setting you up as another "outsider" who just can't understand his grandiose vision.  And it seems you have already figured out the only way for you not to be one of THEM is to fall into the same type of bipolar (or whatever the correct "diagnosis" might be) mental state.  Maybe you can be of help but tread carefully. 









 

[Hopalong]

Dawning,
I don't find it difficult to understand his grief over the state of the world, mankind, etc, etc. However, it is his choice to view others as shallow, unenlightened, less concerned than he is. It may well be that those people he runs into are not interested in howling despair. They may be venting their grief in other ways or in private moments, and they may be expressing a deeper human intelligence by forging ahead with the pleasures of ordinary life regardless of the Fall of Western Civilization.

I also feel that his message is BLAMING. And I can tell you from my heart, that if someone will go there in just a long-distance correspondence, daily life with a person with such a cramped spirit would be hell.

He has to forgive humanity before he can help it. Right now, he's focused on the problem, not on giving of himself toward a solution. He is mired in negativity, and may never be otherwise.

There is a swamp ahead, and a road around it. It is up to you whether to wade in out of compassion for a lonely crocodile (who may actually be so self-absorbed he's not really lonely. Or to take the road around it, on your own for now, to something beautiful beyond.

I agree:

Compassion seems so crucial.

 

What is the best way to be compassionate in a situation such as this?

I believe the best way is to have compassion for yourself. This would lead to respect for the value of your own life.

It is something you can hand over to a cerebral narcissist if you like. Or not.

love,
Hops

[penelope]

You have given most of your life to "personal development", and the personal is not the universal, is not the all of man. Not the all of living. You seem concerned for the content of "you", and not its basic structure. Have you ever asked what it is that is growing with "Growth", what self-esteem is actually, not what I think it is. Who it is that is being "inspired".

Ick.  To me, he sounds like he's projecting.  Especially with:  You seem concerned for the content of "you"  I think my reponse to this would be something along the lines of: yeah?  and so what?   ..and not its basic structure  You mean like it's molecules?  huh?

What exactly does he mean by the 'personal' is not the universal?  I don't even agree with this, as I think feelings are very personal and are in fact universal!  ie, we all get angry, feel sad, get happy, feel lonely.

I also came to the same conclusion as Hops, after reading his email to you.  My instincts were telling me RUN...FAST!!  It reminded me of the emails I used to get from a very intelligent, very egotistical, very depressed, very narcissistic professor I once dated.  He'd write me an email like this, I'd respond with "Interesting."

He'd slam me back with, "WHY HAVEN'T YOU RESPONDED IN DEPTH?  ARE YOU NOT INTELLIGENT ENOUGH?!"  or something to that effect.

very icky

just walk away from this one

bean