Dead N Parents leave me Wondering

[Dazed1]

Hi All,

I love this board.  I’ve learned so much, thanks to everyone who has posted.  I’m reading the archives and I’m up to page 120.

While I’ve learned so much from all the posts, I have not seen anything directly on point with my predicament:

Both my parents are dead.  Within the past year, my mother died and the aftermath of her death has led me to conclude that my parents may have been Ns.  This is particularly shocking to me, because I used to think they were nearly the perfect parents.

Now, I’m constantly reflecting on the past and trying to evaluate my relationship with them, looking at my prior interactions with them and trying to figure out if they were Ns or had some kind of personality disorders and how it all has effected me.

During this past year, my former T has showed me that my relationship with my parents involved enmeshment, triangulation, enabling, codendency, voicelessness and boundary issues.

I know my parents loved me, but they passed on a lot of junk from their childhoods to me and my sister. 

For example, my father (who died when I was 14) was enmeshed with his mother (my paternal grandmother).  My mother hated my paternal grandmother, but now I see that I was enmeshed with MY mother.  Thus, I repeated a pattern and it's ironic because my mother HATED my paternal grandmother, yet my mother did the same thing that my paternal grandmother by enmeshing with her child.

My former T told me that it was unlikely that I would marry as long as my mother was alive due to the enmeshment.  I have never had a “healthy” or satisfying relationship with a man and I'm 38.

I now believe that I enmeshed my mother because I was her enabler/codependent and I did not want her to feel her pain.  My mother was a very high strung anxious worrier and her parents (my maternal grandparents) were very unsupportive of my mother (or my FOO).  I think maybe my maternal grandparents were also Ns.

I also now see that my mother triangulated my sister and made her a scapegoat.

Since my dad died when I was young, it’s really hard to evaluate my relationship with him:  He did love me, but he was authoritarian and used to spank/hit me quite a bit.  On about 3 occasions, he took a belt to my sister, but he never used the belt on me, although my mother, sister and I begged him to stop (he didn’t).

My paternal grandfather left my father’s FOO when my father was 3 years old and my paternal grandmother was definitely an N.  So, can I “blame” (for lack of a better word) my father for not being a stellar dad since he had bad role models?

Also, my former T told me that there were no boundaries in my FOO, but there were very thick boundaries for anyone outside of my FOO.

My parents used to argue and yell at each other a lot.

I’m quite sure my sister is an N and recently I have distanced myself from her (for my self protection), yet we love each other.  My sister cannot hold a job, so my mother financially supported her, even though they fought all the time. 

Now, I financially support my sister because my mother passed that “job” onto me.  However, my mother and I never had a discussion about who or how my sister would be financially supported after my mother died.  My mother just assumed I would do so.

My former T told me my sister is mentally handicapped and I should just be happy that my sister is able to live on her own and has not been institutionalized.

I know my sister “loves” me, but I guess I’ll never have a “full” relationship with her due to her Nism.

Too many realizations to list here, but my question is: What can I do about all these realizations now that my parents are dead? 

I can’t work on these issues with my parents because they’re dead, so I can’t try to establish boundaries or decide whether to do a “cut off”.  It’s sort of an unfinished fait accompli.

Thank you for reading this far.

dazed

[pennyplant]

Thank you for sharing your story, Dazed.  The particulars of your life and mine are quite different but one thing I can comment on is how you can continue to work on your issues now that both parents are dead and cannot work on them with you.  I believe that if they were still alive and you had just discovered Narcissism and voicelessness, they would not want to work on it with you.  I believe there would not be any kind of dialogue with them about how they raised you.  Ns can't bear to feel guilt for what they have done wrong.  They would probably do anything to avoid having to accept responsibility.  It would probably not be very satisfying for you.

I understand the difficulty of having to work on all this from "memory".  But it does give you a certain amount of power to call it like you see it.  While my father was alive, I felt too much sense of responsibility to protect his feelings.  With my mother, I feel the same way.  I have no intention of ever discussing voicelessness with her or past wrongs or anything personal along those lines.  I still find it difficult to call her N.  Or to really accept that that is what she is.  And maybe she is lower on the scale than some of the other parents of board members.  For me it is harder to deal with this stuff when the people I "blame" are still alive.  With my father gone, it has kind of released part of me.  I miss him.  But I do not miss the difficulties.

So, that is another way to look at not having your parents around anymore.  I don't think it has to stop you from growing in your knowledge and continuing to develop as a person.

Pennyplant

[Dazed1]

Hi Pennyplant,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful, insightful and sensitive response.

Yes, I think you're right.  They probably would be hostile to working with me on Nism, voicelessness or how they raised me.

I mean, what was I thinking??  I've read the posts here and most parents are hostile when their adult children want to explore these issues. 

You're right:  they most likely couldn't bear the guilt, wouldn't accept responsibility and it probably would be very dissatisfying for me.

Yes, I understand what you're saying about you wanted to protect your father's feelings while he was alive.  I guess I felt that way regarding my mother:  I was afraid to let her feel her pain and I didn't want to be a source of more pain for her.

"With my mother, I feel the same way.  I have no intention of ever discussing voicelessness with her or past wrongs or anything personal along those lines.  I still find it difficult to call her N.  Or to really accept that that is what she is.  And maybe she is lower on the scale than some of the other parents of board members."

I know what you mean about finding it difficult to "accept" that your Mom may have N tendencies.  Yes, I too find it very hard to accept the idea.

Regarding your decision to not discuss these things with her, I assume you decided not to do so because it's a 'lose-lose' proposition:  If you bring it up, she'll deny it, you'll argue about it and wind up feeling guilty and full of bad feelings?  I guess I'm projecting here because I suppose that is what would happen if I had brought it up with my Mom.

Come to think of it, I've read many posts and articles saying one should not tell an N how one really feels because the N will deny it, will use it against you and this leaves one feeling worse.  Yeah, been there and done that.

Yes, maybe the cup is half full:  I can call it as I see it.

And, yes, I am and will continue to grow and developer as a person.

Pennyplant, you have made me feel a lot better.  Bless you.  Wishing you all good things in life.

Thank you so much.

Dazed

[pennyplant]

Regarding your decision to not discuss these things with her, I assume you decided not to do so because it's a 'lose-lose' proposition:  If you bring it up, she'll deny it, you'll argue about it and wind up feeling guilty and full of bad feelings?  I guess I'm projecting here because I suppose that is what would happen if I had brought it up with my Mom.

You're welcome, Dazed.

Yes, this is exactly why I will never bring it up with my mother.  As it is, I have a hard time bringing up anything with anyone who I feel is not treating me right or is taking advantage of me.  I become overwhelmed with emotions and say things in a hard way and then the person never seems to be open to me again, even if I am justified with my pain.  So, I am learning how to approach difficult situations in a more positive way.  Learning what to just let go of.  It seems to me that with an entire childhood of not having been wanted or loved very well by either of my parents, if I "go there" with my mother, it will dredge up too much.  I won't be able to put the genie back in the bottle.  Even though it is so big, this is one of the situations I plan to just let go of.

It is easier with my father, because toward the end of his life, he started to see some things and figure it out and seemed to finally see that it was good that I existed in his life.  So, I can live with that.  If my mother ever comes to a similar conclusion, it will be because she finally figured it out too.  She will have to come to it, if she ever does, on her own and in her time.  It will never happen because I demand it.  Nothing ever happens in any relationship just because the other person demands it.  Nothing sincere anyway.  And that is what I want.  Something sincere and genuine.  If it is anything less than that I don't want it.  With anyone.

Dazed, now it sounds like the relationship with your sister is the one that threatens to engulf you and take over the rest of your life.  That is the thing that, if it were happening to me, would make me very angry and want to do something about it.  I hope your T can help you with that one and therefore help you gain back your life for yourself.

Even so, once you have your life back for yourself, you will still have to build it almost from the beginning .  It is difficult to do the work of childhood when you are middle-aged.  But it is well worth it.  That is where I am at right now.  I've got my life back for myself and am in the early stages of letting my true self grow and develop.  I still have anger about it being so late in time now.  I am 45.  And inside, on some level, I'm probably about 8.  But I'm determined to become my true self.  I'm convinced that it is the only way I can be fulfilled and become happier.  And it takes as long as it takes.  What was stolen from me, my entire childhood, can't be returned or re-done.  No other option but to do that work now as an adult.

You can do what you need to do, Dazed, you have already figured out so much.

Pennyplant

[Hopalong]

HUGE, TT!

Being their shock absorber has been your pain and misfortune!

What a powerful insight, truly root-changing.

Congratulations on your wisdom. Those realizations come painfully but are freedom.

love,
Hops-Who-Knows-that-Highway

[Dazed1]

TT,

Thank you for your insight.  I would have responded earlier, but the board went down (THANK YOU DR. GROSSMAN FOR GETTING THE BOARD BACK UP!!!).

Enmeshment, codependency and a shock absorber: it all makes sense.

TT, you have focused me into wondering whether experiencing codependency is independent of being raised by N parents:  I'm not sure that my parents were Ns, but I know I was co-d with my mother.  I'm going to post a separate thread on this.

Thanks again,
dazed

[SilverLining]

TT, you have focused me into wondering whether experiencing codependency is independent of being raised by N parents:  I'm not sure that my parents were Ns, but I know I was co-d with my mother.  I'm going to post a separate thread on this.

Thanks again,
dazed

I've come to believe I and my two siblings have all been enmeshed and codependent with my parents.  It's partly because of their "N-ish" traits, but also I suspect because of the environment of constant low level insecurity they projected.  At the time we should have been confidently creating our independent adult "selves" we were too wrapped up in making sure the family worked.   And that sense of insecurity, obligation, and guilt once in place becomes a habit which can extend decades into adulthood.  Even now (and I am 45) I feel a sense of obligation and guilt if I do anything  of which they might disapprove.  Most of the time they aren't even going to know, because they live 600 miles away. They aren't the problem any longer, its the "internal parent" monster I have absorbed/ created. 

You can work on this after the parents are dead because the problem no longer has anything to do with "them".  Remember the old saying "the answer lies within".   

[Dazed1]

Wow trj100,

Your response really hit home for me.  Very insightful and wise.

Yes, now that you raise it, I too believe my parents projected a "constant low level insecurity".  We were a "closed" system family; outsiders were not trusted.

"At the time we should have been confidently creating our independent adult "selves" we were too wrapped up in making sure the family worked.   And that sense of insecurity, obligation, and guilt once in place becomes a habit which can extend decades into adulthood."   You really pinpointed it.   Yes, this is my background.

"I feel a sense of obligation and guilt if I do anything  of which they might disapprove.  Most of the time they aren't even going to know, because they live 600 miles away. They aren't the problem any longer, its the "internal parent" monster I have absorbed/ created. "  Me too.

"the problem no longer has anything to do with "them".  Remember the old saying "the answer lies within".     Amen, trj100.  You are right.  I must reprogram/re-record the 'tapes' in my brain.

Yet, eventhough you've nailed it, I still feel ticked off at the parents, like they stole something from me:  They stole me from me and now, it's not a matter of getting me back, but rather of creating/discovering me.

But, let me ask you another question:  What is the connection between Nism and codependency/enabling/enmeshment?  I ask this because my parents had N tendencies, but I don't think they were heavy duty Ns.  I actually started a new thread on this.

Why is the differentiation between Nism and codependency/enabling/enmeshment important to me?  Guess I want to be able to define my issues more clearly.

Thank you again.

dazed

[Hopalong]

it's not a matter of getting me back, but rather of creating/discovering me.

I love this, TJ & Dazed.

I think there is probably a core inner child who's never gone, but dark childhoods remove her from our sight.
"No one" was there to see her, when we were trained to ignore/suppress/overrule our essential selves.

Everyone is trained that way, to a degree, simply to become socialized. But in families when an N holds sway,
it goes too far. It warps us.

I think about other cultures too, though. Western civiization warps its young in certain ways, other cultures
in other ways. We're never going to be naked in a tulip blossom again.

I guess what's going on with advancing psychology and spirituality is that although we know the young
have to be taught about the world, we just want to know how that can be done with as little damage to
their souls, if you believe in souls, and hopes as possible.

I'll never forget when I took my 3 y/o D to her first movie, a showing of The Red Balloon at the library.
She had never seen cruelty before (when the mob of boys steals the boy's balloon). Right afterward, as
the children were going out, I asked, how did you like it? She said wait, I said okay. She was just holding
it together. In the car, I was quiet and waited. Finally she choked out, with deep tears streaming, No
more mean people, please Mommy.

It was awful. Similar to the day I had to explain that people eat cows.

Her heart just broke, and broke again.

I guess the difference between that and an N family is the N doesn't or can't care when a child's
heart breaks.

Sorry, don't know why I got so lachrymose.

love
Hops

[CB123]

edit

[Hopalong]

Oh, CB, hon.
You have it. It's okay.

All you need to do is cry with them now.
Just tell them.
I thought I was doing the best for you by hiding my sadness and feelings, and now I see it wasn't good for any of us.
But I was doing the best I knew how.

And I love you all so much.
And I know you're going to be okay. You are such incredible people.

Kids, I am going to be okay too. I am going to cry for a while.
There's no way around it. I have to grieve a sort of dream that turned out wrong.

But you watch!! I am NOT dead yet. There is another rich long chapter of life ahead of me,
and I am going to learn how to be emotionally healthy and whole, and I am going to be excited about it.
I am also going to be sad and scared and up and down and hopeful and worried and it is ALL OKAY.

I just want you to know that you are the greatest children in the entire world. and once we all get
through this passage, we are ALL going to be okay.

(Something like that? Just be you as you are, warts and all, regrets and all. It is terribly painful to
look your child in the face and say, I'm so sorry I didn't know X or Y. But it's a relief too. Because
 you acknowledge their reality and your part in it. And that is the first step toward letting the past go.)

That's why it's so liberating to apologize, imo. When we do that, we continue to grieve and feel very
badly about it all for a while. This is natural and normal and okay. But after some time, that wave of
sorrow, because we have addressed it directly, begins to lift, and the lure of the present returns.

That's what you have ahead, dear. The lure of the present.

You are just still unattaching those octopus cups of the past, some of which are your regrets, and
your need to apologize to each child, and weep, and share your present sorrow over a past which
will never be any different than it was.

It's a grueling, long, hard hike, but you are taking it, step by step.

YOU ARE GOING TO REACH THE VIEW. Then you will be in the present, and you will not have a
knapsack full of guilt on your back. You will have released it, and you will have forgiven yourself
for not knowing what you did not know.

You did not know what you did not know.

And now you know different things, and you will be learning even more.

You deserve all the kindness and compassion you are giving and sending and emitting and
praying toward your children.

You NEED to give it to yourself. When you have learned to truly forgive yourself (that means getting to the point where the words "forgive yourself" do not come with pain attached) you will be free, and free to help your children do the same.

love,
Hops (preaching to myself too)

[SilverLining]

But, let me ask you another question:  What is the connection between Nism and codependency/enabling/enmeshment?  I ask this because my parents had N tendencies, but I don't think they were heavy duty Ns.  I actually started a new thread on this.

Why is the differentiation between Nism and codependency/enabling/enmeshment important to me?  Guess I want to be able to define my issues more clearly.

Thank you again.

dazed

Seems to me the enmeshment is probably a good sign of Nish tendencies in the parent.  Maybe there are other biological/environmental factors which could cause non N parents to raise enmeshed children.  But I suspect Nism in the parents is a common cause. 

Because they were Nish, they didn't provide the emotional support necessary for us to create healthy independent "selves".  Instead of them parenting us, we end up parenting them.  And when it comes time to separate, we can't psychologically do it.  Our security for all those years depended on us playing a certain game in a certain way.  That game didn't include figuring out our own independent power in the world, so we stay enmeshed in the family system.  Our "internal parents" tell us to stay in the system, rather than stepping out on our own. 

About five years ago it dawned on me I tend to have a negative internal voice created in part (I believe)by my years of interaction with my Nish-autistic father.  During the years I might have been receiving positive support from an adult role model, I heard monologues and self centered responses. 

Definitely there are times I still get annoyed at him.  But at the same time I try to remember the real problem is no longer him, but the negative voice I acquired.  And if I spend too much of my energy battling with the "outside" father, am I still enmeshed in that system? 

Another thing JC said is that our "enemies are those of our own household".  You don't hear this line much in church, because people might take it literally and think it applies to their "outside" family.  I think it refers to an internal growth process. 

Looks to me like you are proceeding on a positive and fruitful path dazed. 

 

[Anon]

I've been reading this board for about a month, ever since I found it while looking for resources for people who have N parents.  My dad, I am convinced, is N.  Reading here has helped me so much and it is so comforting to know there are others who really see this stuff and really know it.  Since the way my Ndad and family perceive reality and their narrative is so different from mine, it has made me very stoic and reserved, even inside, about how different MY view is.  I've mainly assumed my view was probably flawed and possibly selfish.  So to find so many people saying what I have said and thought and seeing what I have observed too - so incredible!  But I write in response to CB's post.

CB, please consider being thoughtfully open with your kids, not just about your perspective but about the information you have learned about N and resources on it for them.   As I read your post, it reminded me how as the daughter of an N I used to cry at night, silently. All the time. For years.  In the day my feelings were mostly hidden (certainly the extent and extremity were concealed), but at night the despair and loneliness would come over me and the rejections and contempt of the day would catch up with me.  Your kids may have been hiding their struggles from you to protect you.  And you know, I knew my family would despise me and my 'drama' if they knew I was crying at night.  If you lead the way, you may be forging a safe space for all of you to heal and regain confidence.

Also, they may be scared to move on and out of the family system too. I'm sure they want to protect you, but also they have experienced someone who was bent on controlling them, weakening them, undermining them.  I bet there are things he has said to them, calculated to devastate, that you have no idea of because they were so painful the kids have never verbalized them.  And maybe because right now they believe those hateful words to be true of themselves. It's really hard to feel good about new challenges in life when those things are operating inside you. 

Making change has been really terrifying for me because it feels like I'm inviting inevitable disaster and unavoidable devastating judgment. Your kids may also be up against that internally.  The sooner they can begin to heal into their own peace of mind the better.  I would never wish on anyone the total blighting that I've been through, unable to be my own champion or believe in myself.  That's actually the part I mind the most, somehow being on the side of people who are destructive to me so that I too am destructive to me.

Certainly some of your kids must be old enough to get a LOT out of books like Children of the Self-Absorbed.  Anyway, best of luck. I think you are all so courageous. 

[SilverLining]

By moving to the farm ten years ago, we effectively created the kind of sick family system that you are describing.  They became much too ingrown and occupied with family problems at a time when they needed to get out and create their own lives.  I agreed to come to the farm when we had a great support system in town--good friends, a circle of friends their ages, a church, etc., but NH sabotaged the one we had when we arrived and the one I tried to create to replace it.  He was satisfied with a little closed "kingdom" and I ran out of energy to keep recreating an outside life and having it shot down.

Seems to me your consciousness of the problem is half the solution CB.     

The situation is very familiar to me.  When I was twelve my N-autistic father was turning 40 and descending into a twenty year "mid life crisis".  He packed up the family with no discussion and moved us to a weird little town in the West where half the population belongs to a religious cult.  The schools were lousy, there was little chance of finding any assistance outside the family system.  I now believe the trauma of this period has been critical in my situation.

I agree with with the anon post above.  Since you are conscious of the situation being upfront with your children could be very helpful.    A lot of what they are going through is unconscious reaction to the situation.  Understand it will take time.

Another issue is what you are doing to improve your own situation.  Make things better for yourself  and the unhappiness to which your children are reacting is no longer an issue. 

 

 

 

[reallyME]

Pennyplant

I believe that if they were still alive and you had just discovered Narcissism and voicelessness, they would not want to work on it with you.  I believe there would not be any kind of dialogue with them about how they raised you.  Ns can't bear to feel guilt for what they have done wrong.  They would probably do anything to avoid having to accept responsibility.  It would probably not be very satisfying for you.

I totally agree with this.  N's do not want to see the truth about themselves, because it means there are FLAWS there, and they can NOT allow themselves to EVER be less than perfect.  One person in my life, from a ministry family, lived this way...always have to look strong, have all the answers for everyone in your life, not show weakness for any length of time...a sort of "never let em see ya sweat" philosophy.  As a result, you could only get so close before she realized there was intimacy starting, and began psychological devaluing and punishing because you dared to care. 

If you were to confront your parents about N'ism, they'd most likely tell you that you've forgotten what it was REALLY LIKE, are crazy, just want to put your issues onto them, and the common phrase heard from most N's "AFTER ALLLLLLLLLLLL WE'VE DONE FOR YOU!"

Hops made a comment I agreed with too.  She mentioned how children of dysfunctional parents are the SHOCK ABSORBERS.  I can still recall Jodi telling me "people are just enhancements in your life" and  when I once asked her what use was I to her, once I realized that, no matter what I did for her it didn't lend to her happiness, although she seemed to want to keep me around...I asked her "What good am I to you?"  She told me "you are my sounding board...the one who listens while I tell about my problems and work them out for myself"  What a REWARDING relationship, right? NO...if someone else can work out their own problems all the time, where is the convo, where is the advice, that relationshps consist of?  She saw me as an object, sent to just sit and listen while she talked her way from depression back into happiness.

I'm not trying to divert attention onto my situation when I post...just sharing how I felt, so maybe you could identify and understand that, even if your "parents" were alive, most likely you wouldn't have gotten them to truly SEE their error and abuse...then again, there could have been some sort of a miracle that helped them see...I don't know, but most likely not.