whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

[penelope]

sorry for hijacking your thread whoami.  Please share some more if you can find the words.

Is your Narcissistic person a relative?  For some reason, he sounds like a boyfriend/spouse or ex?  Maybe you mentioned it already and I missed it.  Does this person have to be in your life, or can you limit toxic contact?  You can regain your voice with others, but with an N, it's extremely difficult if not impossible.  They're the only ones "allowed" a voice.

love & Peace,
bean

[Jade]

whoami: Bravo for sticking up for yourself. I hope you can keep doing it. It can be very hard.

penelope/bean: Your letter was really something, I can see why you had to write it. I'm very impressed by people who come from such an overtly abusive household, being able to break free and stick up for themselves.

(I have just finished reading "The Narcissistic Family: Diagnosis and Treatment," by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman and Robert Pressman. The book distinguishes between overtly and covertly narcissistic families.)

[penelope]

Thanks for the validation Lib and Jade.

Jade, I have not read this book you mention, nor have I heard of it before despite my massively large and increasingly so library on this subject  .  It does look good:

http://www.booksamillion.com/ncom/books?pid=0787908703&ad=FGLBKS

bean

[Bones]

whoami: Bravo for sticking up for yourself. I hope you can keep doing it. It can be very hard.

penelope/bean: Your letter was really something, I can see why you had to write it. I'm very impressed by people who come from such an overtly abusive household, being able to break free and stick up for themselves.

(I have just finished reading "The Narcissistic Family: Diagnosis and Treatment," by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman and Robert Pressman. The book distinguishes between overtly and covertly narcissistic families.)

I happen to have this book, (found it this year while attending a conference).  After reading it, it's what prompted me to start searching for more information on Narcissistic Families and found this board as a result.

Bones

[Dazed1]

Hi whoami,
I think you did the right thing and good for you.  Your N person laughed at devaluing you because they probably devalue themself.

"Is there anything a person can say to regain their voice when it has continually been silenced?"    I think the only thing one can do is to enforce one's boundaries.  After I have been verbally attacked, I respond to the person by saying something that enforces my boundaries and then my self esteem increases and I no longer feel voiceless.


Hi Bean,
I am so sorry you have endured so much.  You are incredibly strong and resourceful. 

May this New Year bring you more strength and put you on the path you want to be on.  May that be true for all of us.

I want to endorse the book that Jade mentioned:  "The Narcissistic Family: Diagnosis and Treatment," by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman and Robert Pressman.  It is an excellent, eye opening book and I highly recommend it.

Dazed

[penelope]

My Uncle responded.  I forgot to mention that he is a retired police officer, and thus has seen his fair share of domestic violence.  Do you think he's feeling a bit guilty?

Here's what he wrote back:

Bean,
All I know about this abuse it what you've told me in 3 e-mails. That's pretty one sided so I
can't form any opinions based on those alone. Yes, your parents did mistreat us (or Christine) but
every family has its ups and downs. It seems unreasonable to cut yourself off from people who
care about you because you're angry w/ someone else. I love you and will be glad to meet/talk
about this. I'm off for 2 weeks starting Weds.
   I think yoru're a pretty accomplished woman.
Nate

Here is my response:

Uncle Nate,
I am not angry.  I've been in therapy now for almost a year.  The anger has long passed.  I speak my truth and I've chosen to make a statement - by not speaking to them or YOU ALL WHO ARE ENABLERS, I'm saying that what they're doing is wrong.  It's the only decent thing to do.

I'd be happy to tell you some of the things they've done. (I listed the things I wrote above)

There's more but since it wasn't done to me personally or I don't have the hard evidence, I don't feel I should mention it.

Form your own opinions and I wish you luck with that.

Bean

[pennyplant]

Hi bean,  It seems like your uncle isn't affected personally, so he doesn't want to rock the boat.  Most people I know are like that.  They can see what someone is doing is wrong, but if it doesn't get under their skin then they don't feel any need or urge to take a stand.  They will even like the person in spite of what they know.  I run into that all the time.  In fact, some people start to dislike me if I insist on making my stand with a particular person.  Like they have to take the other person's side because of my strong stance.  Like they feel sorry for the other person and I'm the bad guy for having the opinion I have.

It is a hard situation to be in.  But even if you can't get the others to see, at least you see and can take a stand yourself.  It would just feel better, I imagine, for someone else to see it the way you do.  Maybe in time, more of them will.

PP

[penelope]

hi PP -

Thanks for your comments.  I think you're right that my uncle is not going to rock any boats - well except mine (perhaps I asked for it though).  Did you notice he 1) decided he can't "judge" my claims since he hasn't heard the other side.. (sort of N to put himself in this position, I think), 3) dismissed the mistreatment as "every family has its ups and downs" - which implys it has stopped (wishful thinking on his part), 3) called me unreasonable (I choose to think of myself as courageous), 4) decided I'm angry with my parents - maybe I'm even just out for revenge is implied? 5) "I think yoru're a pretty accomplished woman" maybe this is a sore spot with me, but in my family, my parents like to take all the credit for how their "kids" have all turned out (bleck!)  I hope he's not implying it again here!!

I wonder if my Uncle isn't an N.  He sort of creeps me out, to tell ya the truth.  He is so much like my Dad in so many ways...  I do not like the way he treats his girlfriend, and have often thought of mentioning things that he has done to her like, 1) she asks him a question, he ignores her and doesn't say anything for an hour while we're driving in the car to their house (she, embarrassed says to me:  it used to bother me that he does this - then I realized he just gets lost in thought, that's why he doesn't always answer me).  The question is whether I should stay for awhile when we get to their house...  Since my uncle hasn't answered and in fact stopped talking, I leave when I get there.  He calls me on the phone as I'm driving home and says "why'd you leave?  I was going to invite you in."  2)  He talks about himself incesantly, and belittles her appearance. 

I have wondered why she stays with him.  Maybe this is judgemental of me, or maybe I have a 6th sense...who knows?

bean

[reallyME]

Hi bean,  It seems like your uncle isn't affected personally, so he doesn't want to rock the boat.  Most people I know are like that.  They can see what someone is doing is wrong, but if it doesn't get under their skin then they don't feel any need or urge to take a stand.

I"m too tired to remember who posted this, but I must say that I totally AGREE!  I have been the "bad guy" all my life for taking a stand against the "popular" person that everyone in the family engrandized, even when they were wrong.  I have been a "boat-rocker,"  a scapegoat, a rebel...you name it...been it all and done it all in the name of standing for justice for the underdog.

Don't expect a person who supports the family "secrets" and dysfunctions, to be proud of you for pointing out the flaws.  they do NOT LIKE THAT!  They want to portray the image of "we're just fine...one big happy family" even though it couldn't be farther from the truth.  When people like you and I dare to question and address things, they see us as a threat and an enemy, who has "asked for it" when we are "punished."

[Hopalong]

(PP, tell me if you don't like my fantasy monologues...love, Hops)

Dear Uncle Nate,

"Ups and downs" is a way of minimizing the trauma I went through.
That's enabling, and that's why I can't interact with them, or you.

A police officer knows better than most what denial and enabling can do.

PP

[pennyplant]

Hey, Pbean,

I think you're right on the money.  Uncle Nate does sound N.  And he found the perfect mate, someone who can justify any inconsiderate thing he would do to her and let him off the hook.  The not answering and then acting all innocent when you leave.  Belittling her appearance.  The one-sidedness of his comments to you.  He sounds very manipulative at any rate.  No, bean, I don't think he will ever want to understand your side of the story.  It will hit too close to home.  I hope you let go of him too.  It is not worth the cost to try and keep this person in your life.

Pennyplant

[penelope]

Hops - I love the inner monologue!  This one I will keep inside my head.  thank you hops...

PP - thank you........It's so weird that I have a hard time just seeing him for who he is.  I need everyone else to validate it.   

OK, and about now I'm feeling Really guilty for taking over this thread!!   

bean

[Dazed1]

Hi bean,

Two things strike me about your uncle's response:  He shows no empathy for you and he minimizes your feelings.

For me, I believe a great source of my voicelessness comes from people who show little empathy for me and minimize my feelings. 

Now that I know about voicelessness and I see someone respond with no empathy and they minimize my feelings, RED FLAGS appear.  The red flags tell me that this person is going to try to define my reality and tell me that my perceptions are wrong.

Since he is a blood relative and Nism can be genetic, it's really possible he is an N or has N traits.  Therefore, don't be surprised and don't let him make you feel crazy when he shows little empathy, minimizes your feelings or tries to define/redefine your reality.

Actually, when I think about it, it would be rather miraculous if he would be supportive of you.  So, I think, while it's good to make yourself heard, protect your vulnerability against your uncle and your family so that they don't destroy you. 

Just know in your heart that what you know is true and don't let anyone gaslight you.

with love,
dazed

[reallyME]

Dazed : Now that I know about voicelessness and I see someone respond with no empathy and they minimize my feelings, RED FLAGS appear.  The red flags tell me that this person is going to try to define my reality and tell me that my perceptions are wrong.

EXCELLENT!

This, in a nutshell is what N's do.

Now, i'd like to share a story about something that happened with my daughter years ago in school with an N teacher.  My daughter was about 7 years old and she came to me crying one day saying "Mommy I don't like Mrs ______!  She hurt me! She made me shove a pencil up my nose!" 

As you can imagine I was horrified and aimed to get to the bottom of this crud with this teacher!

I set up a meeting with the lady and told her what my daughter alleged.  My daughter was in the meeting too, so she could give her side of the story (which is a very good thing to do with your children, by the way...have them come to the meetings so they can learn about communication with people).  The teacher said to me, "oh no, your daughter has things a bit confused" (keep in mind that there was a red indentation on the side of my daughter's nose).

I said, "ok, then let's let her tell us what happened." 

Immediately the teacher jumped in saying "that's NOT REALLLLLLLLLLLLY how it happened, was it Carol?  Tell your mother what REALLY happened!"  I could tell the lady was trying to intimidate my daughter into LYING to protect her image.

I grabbed my daughter and said "This will NOT happen again!"  That was the first year I homeschooled my daughter and my first taste of true N manipulation and control.

Now, with my situation, Jodi tried the same thing with me..."you probably just got things a bit mixed up, and that's ok.  you were in a strange place, so I'm sure you can't remember how it all went, girl."  YEAH RIGHT~!  I know EXACTLY what happened to me while I was there, and I will NEVER tell anything other than the truth as long as I live, irrespective of reputation, image, etc.  That's how it is.

~RM

[Dazed1]

Hi reallyme,

Thanks for your kind words.  I kinda feel like you validated me, like I "get" voicelessness. 

Your experience with your daughter's teacher and Jodie, yuch!!  These Ns, these abusers, vampires, they are all over the place.  Now I watch out for them.

No longer will I let the Ns sucker punch me.

Dazed