Author Topic: It's about the kids  (Read 5276 times)

lynn

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It's about the kids
« on: March 07, 2004, 04:58:28 PM »
Hi friends,

I'm sitting here reading posts and thinking about N-moms, N-dads, N-husbands.  Everybody here has so many life experiences.  Help me to understand the steps to take with my children to give them tools to avoid N-ism.  Clearly, this sort of thing runs in families.  Yet, not all children in the family are affected in the same way.

What worked in your situation?  

What did you wish your mom/dad had done for you?  What do you wish they had NOT done?

What are the most important things for kids in an N-family to understand?  Voice?  Self-confidence?  Feeling loved?

lynn

Anonymous

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It's about the kids
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2004, 05:17:03 PM »
Hi Lynn, hope everythings fine with you in your new life.

This is a good topic you created  for discussion, and my brain has already launched into it. I'm going to be thinking about this one tonight and hope I can come back to it after dinner. Thanks for the post.

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Wildflower

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It's about the kids
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2004, 06:41:35 PM »
Great question and topic indeed!!

I think by virtue of being on this board and working out the issues, most of us here are committed to figuring out and really understanding the narcissistic mechanism in order to prevent handing it down to our children.  To me, this knowledge is essential and the key to prevent passing this down.  

Because her mother continually invaded her physical and emotional privacy, my mother adopted an across-the-board let-her-figure-it-out-on-her-own approach when it came to addressing my needs.  She saw me suffering with my depression, obesity, and fighting with my father, but she figured it was normal or not something to interfere with because it was so much better than what she had grown up with.  Better, perhaps.  Damaging in a different way, absolutely.

If my mother had done a little more child development research (something I’m committed to doing) and raised me as a new person not yet involved in the drama of her own abuse instead of as a reaction to her mother and a reminder of her own childhood, it may have been easier to identify the needs of her child.  And even if she couldn't deal all of those needs herself - find someone who could.  In doing so, she could have probably helped to heal herself by understanding not just that she had been abused, but by understanding what is healthy and how her own needs hadn’t been met – but were completely natural.

My two cents.
If you want to sing out, sing out
And if you want to be free, be free
'Cause there's a million ways to be, you know that there are
-- Cat Stevens, from the movie Harold and Maude

Anonymous

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It's about the kids
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2004, 07:32:18 AM »
What are the most important things for kids in an N-family to understand? Voice? Self-confidence? Feeling loved?


I had to think about this for a while.
Ostensibly children in a n-family have the same needs as other children: unconditional love, space to grow, a nurturing parent to support them, a positive environment etc.

I can think of two differences where there is a narcissist ( or other major issue ) in the family.

One: the children be taught that the narcissist behaviour is different and unacceptable and how to recognise and challenge it and to see themselves as separate. The narcissist does not want to own their own behaviour or their own pain, they are quick to pass the blame and to find offence where there is none. It also compounds as everyone develops: the narcissist experiences more and more pain as they are challenged and denied the attention and adulation. It's not about love either: the narcissist can love. Its about power, and taking from others all the energy in situations, and not giving anything back. Narcissists frustrate others.

Two: that the non-n parent ( s ) get professional help for themselves, and the children do not ever have to take the role of confidante/ advisor/ intermediary etc.

If your children have been affected adversely you will probably already know it Lynn, by their behaviour/ demeanour. Most likely you have been acting as a 'buffer' and effectively caretaking their n-relationship for many years if they have grown up fine.

Portia

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It's about the kids
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2004, 10:21:25 AM »
Hiya Lynn.Whoops! I’ve started, I could go on. What specifically are you thinking of Lynn? Are your children more likely to be hurt by Ns or become Ns? What matters is what they’re like, especially at their ages (16 and 19? Please correct me), rather than what the outside world is like, if you see what I mean. Are they talking to you about what’s happening? Sorry, I don’t think I’m being very clear…P

pandora

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It's about the kids
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2004, 05:29:33 PM »
Lynn,

I am not a parent and probably never will be, but it just struck me how, in  the midst of what is a very hard time for you, you are still able to think of your kids and how to make sure they know how important their feelings and well-being are to you.  I am sure they feel your concern and love.

seeker

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It's about the kids
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2004, 05:47:04 PM »
Hi Lynn,

I, too, had a couple of responses to your questions and could go on and on.  :wink: But am I right in supposing what's really behind the question is that you are wondering how to avoid any N damage to your kids, or you are trying to assess how much damage has been done and trying to find an antidote?

Even in the healthiest environments, kids are going to be formed according to their parenting, their demographics, and their temperament.  (And opportunities and luck!)  Temperament is an incredible wild card in how kids turn out no matter how healthy or messed up the parents are.  I was glad when Rosencrantz, I think, pointed out on a couple of other threads that siblings are equally affected by destructive N forces but show it in different ways. This is so true.  (My bro fought back. I hid under a rock.  :? )  

I want to keep my kids in a bubble and I have to remind myself that "the universe is unfolding as it should" when I get stressed about my children. I literally say this to myself!   So I listen (actively, not passively), pick em up, dust em off, and cheer them on.  

I may have gotcha wrong, but hope this a bit of help or food for thought.  Best, Seeker

Anonymous

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It's about the kids
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2004, 06:32:44 PM »
Hi all,

I'm thinking about this task of helping our children avoid becoming N's if they've been exposed to N's, and to help them deal with N's in their life as most at some time or another will have to.

No Portia, you shouldn't stop, you should go on, please. I know I'm a guest, but pretty please. I've missed you lately and I'd love it if this point could be explored because you absolutely hit the nail on the head.

It's listening. It's listening! Listening! Listening!

This culturally lost art, the other vital aspect of communication. That's what causes voicelessness in the first place. I carry a lot of secrets around in my head because of my job type and the confidentiality aspect connected with it, I'm related to a bit like a priest at work.

The thing that I hear most from people who need to come to me to address personal issues is so often "Thanks for listening." Dr Grossman's introductory articles address this so well.

It's in listening to our children when and where they communicate without stifling their enquiries. Encouraging them to explore their ideas and views. Helping them to learn how to make healthy decisions. Discussing issues that affect themand involving them in decision making processs, with respect to their years. Certain things may be inappropriate for their age.

But  listening is so vital, it's the key.

Children who don't get listened to often develop the unhealthy characteristic of screaming.

This is only one of the many recognised traits of children who don't receive 'listening' from significant caretakers in their lives and as a result haven't learned how to 'listen' to others themselves. This observable trait of 'screaming' in small children is so heart-wrenching. Later in their life this screaming mutates. Its mutations are different depending on whether they are introverts, extroverts, males or females, and also can be affected by sibling order.

One thing that has been proved is that children who experience 'speaking into space' when they are young, and haven't received or been taught effective communication skills become destructive communicators later in life. And this destructive characteristic pervades ao many aspects of their life. If when they were young they were either silenced, ignored or ridiculed, they so often become their own worst enemy. Even in relationships that are important to them.

By not listening to our children and not  respecting their opinions or getting down on their level we not only silence them and create voicelessness, but we make them deaf as well. Deaf to good advice, deaf to good people, deaf to views which conflict with their own. Unfortunately they also become deaf to their own negative speech and the effects of it on others. If children aren't appreciated and responded too, answered or encouraged, the harm is so great. It impacts on, and often destroys their future relationships.

My own view developed from my workplace invovlment is that so often it's the same types and characters who so often become embroiled in the emotional 'fire-storms' that erupt, sometimes occasionaly, sometimes frequently. And so often they are misunderstanding based conflict. Usually flamed by the ones with the poorer, underdeveloped listening skills, and over-developed 'screaming' skills This is the art we need to develop and impart to our children. And it is taught by example. There is no other way.

Would love to hear more on this thread

Guest (high priest/priestess of a company with 500+ employees, parent, and grandparent)

Anonymous

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It's about the kids
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2004, 09:25:48 PM »
Good thread

Anonymous

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It's about the kids
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2004, 04:40:00 AM »
Lynn, I digress from your good thread which by the way I have posted to, but may I ask, on a personal note, how you are going this week? With the changes in your circumstances? I have been thinking about you, and dare I say, hoping you are okay. Have you been okay? How are you feeling?  How's your son and his arm and the distance thing? Just  wondering.

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Wildflower

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It's about the kids
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2004, 01:30:55 AM »
Hi Lynn,

It took reading the other posts on this thread to get that I'd misinterpreted your original posting.   :oops:   I'd assumed it was a general question, but now that I'm more familiar with your history, I can understand more of where the question is coming from.

All the other posters had such great suggestions, that I'm not sure I can add to it.  Kind of still sorting my own stuff out (which I guess is pretty obvious  :? ).

Wildflower
If you want to sing out, sing out
And if you want to be free, be free
'Cause there's a million ways to be, you know that there are
-- Cat Stevens, from the movie Harold and Maude

Anonymous

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It's about the kids
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2004, 03:06:00 AM »
Quote from: Wildflower

Because her mother continually invaded her physical and emotional privacy, my mother adopted an across-the-board let-her-figure-it-out-on-her-own approach when it came to addressing my needs.  She saw me suffering with my depression, obesity, and fighting with my father, but she figured it was normal or not something to interfere with because it was so much better than what she had grown up with.  Better, perhaps.  Damaging in a different way, absolutely.

If my mother had done a little more child development research (something I’m committed to doing) and raised me as a new person not yet involved in the drama of her own abuse instead of as a reaction to her mother and a reminder of her own childhood, it may have been easier to identify the needs of her child.  And even if she couldn't deal all of those needs herself - find someone who couldMy two cents.


Wildflower, this was a valuable input to this thread. It got me thinking about how as parents, when we head off to the extreme, any extreme, whatever extreme that may be, we still cause damage. It's just different damage. I saw this operating years ago in a  couple of communes I lived in. I'm an old reformed now civilised ex-hippie from the 70's. Major studies were done later about a why so many communes failed. So many of the communes that started up in the late 60's a the 70's failed, majorly, catastropically. It became a bit of a fad to analyse and over-analyse the successful ones v the failed ones. But mostly the failures came from the extremes they adopted. These mini-societies went totally over the top in permissiveness in some areas, and became completely anally retentive in others.

For example, one commune that I lived on, some parents actually openly encouraged their pre-adolescents children to explore each other sexually, within the same family, like brothers an sisters. The joke went, 'Incest, the game the whole family can play.' This was shocking, but in that environment of permissiveness it was so acceptable and discussed alonside 'pass the lentils' at the dinner table. One other elite exclusive commune that failed big-time had a membership age rule. No-one over 40 I think it was. This was doomed. There was no wisdom of age in the whole community, it was such an artificial environment.

The bottom line is how to find good, healthy, normal. To lose the baggage passed on to us from our sometimes well-meaning but highly efficiently destructive parents. To not repeat their mistakes, but also to not just focus on doing things differently. Different might not neccessarily be better, That's the thought you brought to surface in my mind Wildflower. Well done. Not to just try to be a different parent to mine, and end up being one different but equally as bad. Everyone else here would want to be the best parent they possibly can be. This is the quest that I'm on too. Thanks

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Anonymous

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It's about the kids
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2004, 08:15:41 AM »
Wildflower, hello, I’ve been reading you. Please don’t be embarrassed! I’m not sure you did misinterpret Lynn’s post: I may have, she may not have wanted a personalised response. It’s a free board, please continue to talk, and don’t worry about ‘fitting in’ with a thread or saying something alternative. I just want to hear more of your voice! Carry on sorting, here if you wish. I’m still sorting…I just kind of get waylaid by conversations. Not very focussed I’m afraid, that’s my problem. Anyway, I just reacted to your  :oops:  - and wanted to say, it’s ok. :D

Hiya again Lynn! What do you think? How’s it going? P

Portia

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It's about the kids
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2004, 08:18:04 AM »
..ok, how did I manage to log myself out then?  :roll: That was me above...P

Anonymous

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It's about the kids
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2004, 08:55:09 AM »
It's just different damage. I saw this operating years ago in a couple of communes I lived in.

this is really interesting.
one of my former friends lived like this, not the sexual permissiveness though, and I always thought they were a 'together' lot, especially her eldest who always seemed 'ahead of his time' if you know what I mean.
Mid-twenties he had a major breakdown, and I wonder now that he was actually being 'mature' to comply or compensate for what maybe he experienced as chaotic? and he lost something of his childhood as a result.