Working stuff out - boring thread

[Gaining Strength]

I am trying to work some things out.  Something is bothering me. It is an old something.  I don't know what it is but it has to go because it is in the way of my getting on with life. 

I am getting increasingly irritible after a real reprieve.  I am going to try to work some things out here.

My mother is really bothering me.  I know the llittle things that are getting to me but it is not really the little things is is something big underneath it all.  It is something about me and I want to get it out.  I am angry about my life circumstances but that anger is not my motivator.  I have come to see that until recently my motivator was to avoid shame.  But that turned into a paralyzer so all motivation was lost.  I cannot live with shame as the only motivator any more even if it worked.  I must set positive goals as motivators.  That does not seem so difficult but I realize that there is a powerful uindercurrent of unconscious strings still pulling on me and I want to bring them to light. 

I react in anger to things my mother does and does not do.  This really has very little to do with my mother - it has to do with me.  I feel victimized and little things she does are pricks in that pain.  I know that if I shift my attitude that I can begin to ignor these little pricks.  I have finally come to see that she does not intend what she does and is unaware of much of it.  It has to do with feeling powerless and that can be changed be changing my attitude.    My powerlessness runs incredibly deep.  I think that I am unconsciously holding on to the powerlessness out of some kind of fear.  It is somehow attached to loneliness and some strange desire for pity.  These things will not help me.  I must let go of them. 

As I write, I have no clue how I will get out of this but I know that my desire to do so is a start and by airing this weakness is a good step.  For some strange reason I want someone to reach out to me and help but it is the story of the caterpillar turning into the butterfly - any assistance will damage the process. 

There is some odd balance between giving to others and needing that giving or that attention to come back.  That wound - that deep, original wound that came from my parents anger over being responsible for my needs is at the root.  As a child and an adult I have waited to receive and raged when I didn't and then waited again.   This is the pattern that has repeated itself over and over.  This is the pattern that my husband and I repeated. 

The clear answer it to quit waiting and to go out and get what I need for myself.  Something is scary about that.  It has to do with being cut off and rejected but I'm not sure what.  It has to do with being belittled, and criticized and made fun of.  It has to do with needing help and getting shame instead.  That is it. 

If I sit and wait (and seeth) then I am talked about behind my back and ridiculed but if I reach out and try to do something I am sabotaged and that is worse.  Now I must take this and do something with it. 

Another stumbling block I have to work on has to do with perfectionism.  My NPDfather was ridiculed into perfectionism as a young child and he continued the family tradition.  He became perfectionistic into OCD and paralysis.  Like father llike daughter (sans the OCD).  Good Enough must intervene in the inaudible tapes in my mind. - Sorry to ramble - thanks for listening. - GS

[CB123]

GS,

I think your butterfly analogy is a good one.  Your dilemma sounds familiar to me and it's something I want to think about too.

Here's a thought to roll around:  Is there a relationship between your perfectionism and your victim role?  Does it feel safer not to risk?  Just a thought.  I havent actually explored it myself.  I'll be interested in hearing if you see anything there.

CB

[axa]

gAINING sTrengh,

FAR FROM BORING.

I am angry about my life circumstances but that anger is not my motivator.  I have come to see that until recently my motivator was to avoid shame.  But [/color

This is familiar to me.  I do not understand it but I feel a huge sense of shame.  Very interesting, maybe I can work some stuff out with t his also.

  I realize that there is a powerful uindercurrent of unconscious strings still pulling on me and I want to bring them to light. 

Yes yes yes,

I feel victimized

So do I and only realise that I have cast myself in this role all my life.  I have been up on the cross for as long as I can remember.  i believe that deep down there is something "honourable" about being a victim.  I have some crazy unconscious notion that in the end I will be rewarded!!!!!!!! - all of this is only coming to light to me recently.

My powerlessness runs incredibly deep.  I think that I am unconsciously holding on to the powerlessness out of some kind of fear.  It is somehow attached to loneliness and some strange desire for pity.

GS I so understand this right now.  I feel somehow it is connected with our voicelessness and our invisibility.  Like in the end the good people, who sacrifice everything get seen and appreciated by everyone.  Happy endings..........not true.

These things will not help me.  I must let go of them. 

I think it is not as easy as choosing to let them go.  I believe when there is a deep understand and acknowledgement of my behaviour then by claiming the part I am rejecting the thing will dissapate.


For some strange reason I want someone to reach out to me and help but it is the story of the caterpillar turning into the butterfly - any assistance will damage the process. 

Nobody can do it for you.  I hope that offering my perspective can useful in some way.

There is some odd balance between giving to others and needing that giving or that attention to come back.

I have been thinking about this also.  I believe I "loved" Xn I gave and gave and gave and got nothing except abuse in return.  It is as  if there is some switch in me that goes into overdrive as soon as someone starts taking in an abusive way.  Instead of walking I throw myself in more and then rage when I do not get what I want.  But it is so obvious, what I wanted was never there and I kept after it.

That wound - that deep, original wound that came from my parents anger over being responsible for my needs is at the root.  As a child and an adult I have waited to receive and raged when I didn't and then waited again.   This is the pattern that has repeated itself over and over.  This is the pattern that my husband and I repeated. 

OH GS MY SCRIPT


The clear answer it to quit waiting and to go out and get what I need for myself.  Something is scary about that.  It has to do with being cut off and rejected but I'm not sure what.  It has to do with being belittled, and criticized and made fun of.  It has to do with needing help and getting shame instead.  That is it. 

GS I think it has something to do with being Adult.  Acknowledging that as an adult you are responsible for your own well being and of course it is scary.  It is easy to look after others to put them before us.  Well Who do you think you are TAKING CARE OF YOURSELF this is an old voice in my head.

If I sit and wait (and seeth) then I am talked about behind my back and ridiculed but if I reach out and try to do something I am sabotaged and that is worse.  Now I must take this and do something with it. 


GS

For me this is a great post as I have been thinking a lot about what has been going on in this post.  I want to start a thread about some of the stuff.


xxxaxa

There is something here about other people.  This is YOUR life GS.  It seems like you are giving a lot of power to others, what they say.  What they do or do not say you cannot control.  It is so scary standing up for yourself when you have not done it before.  It is hard for us to say I have a right, I am as important as you, I WANT TOO and I WIll give to me.

[Hopalong]

GS,
What clear deep thinking you are doing, and at what a level of honesty!
This can't be anything but a very GOOD track you are on.

Thank you very very much for sharing this. I can relate to so many pieces of it.

My paralysis is so mixed up. At work I am competent, effective, extremely responsive and responsible and creative and effective. What I do makes a difference. At home I care for my mother with similar competence (except in the area of keeping paperwork up to date).

Caring for myself in terms of basic organization and clutter control is so simple. Yet this over and over and over becomes the way I act out something in a very self-sabotaging way. I just don't get it.

I don't want so much to be rescued as wish I had a daily partner in my life. Someone to whom I could say, yeah, I'm taking the dog to the vet, then hmmmm, we need groceries, okay, see you tonight, let's have spaghetti, my turn to cook.

I think because my parents' marriage was soooo enmeshed (and the silver lining of that was orderly and cooperative like a VERY well-oiled machine), that all my images of a serene and orderly life seem, in my mind at a usually-buried level) to be connected to doing domestic order and self-care in the context of a partnership.

No partnership? I take care of my boss, my daughter, my mother...but not myself.

Thanks again GS, and Axa...this is starting an important train of thouight for me too.

I'm too tired to think very clearly but will be eager to follow posts on this.

Hops

[Gaining Strength]

CB - it is definitely safer to NOT risk.  I think you have something about a connection between the perfectionism and victim but I cannot quite connect the dots.  Can you connect these two things?

Axa - don't start another thread - do it right here.  There is no hi-jacking here.  I wasn't even sure what I was doing except trying to get something out.

Can you write more about this: I think it is not as easy as choosing to let them go.  I believe when there is a deep understanding and acknowledgement of my behaviour then by claiming the part I am rejecting the thing will dissapate. This seems to make sense. But tell me, how do you claim the part that you are rejecting?  I can't quite get my mind wrapped around this.

GS I think it has something to do with being Adult.  Acknowledging that as an adult you are responsible for your own well being and of course it is scary.  It is easy to look after others to put them before us.  Well Who do you think you are TAKING CARE OF YOURSELF this is an old voice in my head.

Yes AXA - This is really it.  I see it now in what I wrote, "That wound - that deep, original wound that came from my parents anger over being responsible for my needs is at the root. "  I think I am angry at being responsible for my needs, just as my parents once were.  That is very damaging and I must do something about it.  Once again fear is at the root and I have learned how to overcome fear.

This is YOUR life GS.  It seems like you are giving a lot of power to others, what they say.  What they do or do not say you cannot control.  It is so scary standing up for yourself when you have not done it before.  It is hard for us to say I have a right, I am as important as you, I WANT TOO and I WIll give to me.

That's right AXA.  As a victim, I can take what is offered me and then rail and rage if it isn't what I want or need and yet refuse to do anything about it myself because I am a victim.  And as a victim I am not really responsible for the "unfortunate" situation I am in - it is their fault.  

I can see that this is an issue of responsibility vs. fear.  

Thanks AXA and CB.  Your comments are helping me work through this.  

[Gaining Strength]

Hops - I see that you are pointing at the culprit somewhere in these words:

Caring for myself in terms of basic organization and clutter control is so simple. Yet this over and over and over becomes the way I act out something in a very self-sabotaging way. I just don't get it.

I don't want so much to be rescued as wish I had a daily partner in my life. Someone to whom I could say, yeah, I'm taking the dog to the vet, then hmmmm, we need groceries, okay, see you tonight, let's have spaghetti, my turn to cook.

I think because my parents' marriage was soooo enmeshed (and the silver lining of that was orderly and cooperative like a VERY well-oiled machine), that all my images of a serene and orderly life seem, in my mind at a usually-buried level) to be connected to doing domestic order and self-care in the context of a partnership.

or could it be that it is a way to ensure that you are not in an enmeshed situation replicating your mother's smothering role.  Did you as a child tie the "orderliness" and "enmeshment" or perhaps smothering aspect of your mother together so that your disorderliness is actually a confused attempt to keep from replicating those aspects of your mother that you so desparately need to avoid?

This is such hard stuff.

[Hopalong]

Oh my goodness, GS. I am so glad you are so smart.

So...when I have things in proper order, organized and adultly maintained, I feel smothered.

...when I create disorder, unruly rebellious mess and chaos, I can breathe.

Oh my god. You've got something here.

I don't fully fully get it yet, very tired brain this morning, but I am grateful.

And a thing you and Axa were talking about...being angry for having to be responsible for yourself.

I absolutely hate this about myself but I think it's true. I am so tired of being responsible.
I have worked many jobs, taken care of one child, two childish husbands, both parents, one dying father, now one very elderly mother. I think my long period of multiple jobs and repeated jobhunts took a lot of stuffing out of me in the last 8 years as well (I had about 10 jobs if you count long freelance contracts that ran out. But I must have applied for 100.)

At times I resent my dog (not for long!).

And other people on here have many many children and much harder rows to hoe, so why in heck do I feel resentment.

What gives me the right to resent ordinary adult responsibilities? What gives me the right? Is it entitlement? A horrid Nspot?

So it's failure, self-loathing, frustration, incompetence, rationalizing....blah blah.

Boy does this call up difficult stuff.

Thank you for that HUGE insight GS.

Bless you.

Hops

[Gaining Strength]

What gives me the right to resent ordinary adult responsibilities? What gives me the right? Is it entitlement? A horrid Nspot?

So it's failure, self-loathing, frustration, incompetence, rationalizing....blah blah.

Boy does this call up difficult stuff.

Yeah, I know.  But we couldn't look at these parts of ourselves (and everyone has some of them) if we were not ready to look at them and move on.  The scary part would be if we denied them.  Personally, I don't know how we could have grown up in N households without taking on some of these traits - if not simply for survival. 

I credit this place and the anonymity that allows me to look at these unpleasant aspects of myself without getting labeled.

[Leah]

~ Butterfly  ~


Once upon a time in a land far far away.
There was a wonderful old man who loved everything. Animals, spiders, insects....

One day while walking through the woods the
nice old man found a cocoon.

Feeling lonely he decided to take the cocoon home
to watch its beautiful transformation from
a funny little cocoon to a beautiful butterfly.

He gently placed the cocoon on his kitchen table, and
watched over it for days

Suddenly on the seventh day the cocoon started to move
It moved frantically! The old man felt sorry
for the little butterfly inside the cocoon.
He watched it struggle and struggle and struggle!

Finally the old man feeling so sorry for the cocooned
butterfly rushed to its aide with a surgical scalpel and
gently slit the cocoon
so the butterfly could emerge.

Just one slice was all it took,
and the butterfly broke free
from its cocoon only to wilt over in a
completely motionless state.

The old man did not know what to think.
Had he accidentally killed the little butterfly?
No, it's still moving a little bit.! Maybe it's sick!

Who the heck would know?
He was dumbfounded, and quite perplexed!
What should I do, he said. Well he felt so sorry for the little creature
that he decided the best thing he could
do for the butterfly
was to place it gently back into its cocoon.

He did so, and placed a drop of honey
on it to seal the cocoon,
leaving the butterfly to nestle
in its natural state.

Well the next day he noticed that the
cocoon was moving again.
Wow, he said! It moved and moved and
struggled and struggled.
Finally the butterfly broke free
from its cocoon and
stretched its wings out far and wide.
Big time yawn! Its beautiful
wings were filled with wonderful colors!
It looked around and took off!
It was flying! Its so beautiful!
The old man was jumping with joy! Wow!

Go Baby, Go! And that wonderful butterfly did that just that,
it flew and flew till it was almost
out of the old mans sight.
What a joy, he exclaimed!
But then he started to think.
What did I do wrong by trying
to help that beautiful little butterfly out at first?


The old man went into town.
Found the library, and
read every book he could on
butterflies and cocoons.

Finally the answer appeared.
The butterfly has to struggle and struggle
while inside the cocoon.
That's how it gets its strength.
That's just what they are designed to
overcome in order to be strong and beautiful.

Well needless to say the old man was shocked,saddened, and somewhat relieved.

Now he knows the reason why they do what they do.
It was only his perception that made
it appear that the butterfly was
having a hard time.
Well from then on the old man knew that loving
something sometimes means to
pray for it and cheer it on!


He realized that God was wonderful, and
that sometimes appearances aren't what
they seem to be.
That we all are beautiful butterflies,
even though we have our apparent struggles in life...


Author Unknown

[pennyplant]

Hopsy, I don't know if this rings true for you or not.  With me, it was the fact that all the responsibility and care-taking came along way too early in life and was at a level that I could never really handle well.  For me, I had to subvert my own needs at age one when my sister was born and my mother messed around with my sleep schedule to suit her needs.  And I remember vividly always having to consider every act on my part for repercussions with my parents and sister.  So, that would be from pre-school onwards.  That is way too much responsibility way too soon.  Let alone having my first son at age 18.  So, I would say it is not necessarily the number of people you were responsible for, but the timing and the particular skills involved being perhaps something of a stretch for you depending on your talents or developmental level, etc.

(Oh, and sometimes I resent my cats, so you're not the only one to sometimes wish the animals could feed themselves.....)

Pennyplant

[pennyplant]

GS, I think I'm kind of where you're at these days.  Still having trouble with feelings of shame.  And of course, anger is a big one these days.  Sometimes I just feel kind of lost.  It's all so overwhelming most of the time.  Sometimes it helps just to lose myself in some kind of engrossing activity.  That's what was good about my new assignment at work.  It gave my mind a completely different avenue to explore.  It distracted me for awhile from the analyzing and problem-solving.  And that was good for me.  Restful.  It allowed some new stuff to grow in me.  Now I hope it "sticks".

Guess I don't have any concrete suggestions for you.  It does seem like the posting itself is very good for you (and for us, too, of course!)  Maybe just keep going and see where the ideas lead to next.

Pennyplant

[axa]

GS

really tired so I will just address one point then come back tomoroow as I want to talk about Hops writing etc.

How do you claim the part you are rejecting

I believe the more we reject something the more power we give it.  I think its called the paradoxical theory of change.  I do not want to take care of myself, i want to punish myself.  So what I do now is I acknowledge this, I say I do not want to take care of myself, not in a judgmental way just as a fact.  The more that I integrate this voice the less power it seems to have.  When I try and push it away and say I MUST TAKE CARE OF ME ........ the less I do it.

About me being the victim.  I now acknowledge that part of my being in a relationship with XN was because I was seeking out punishment, not consciously may I add but I was.  When I start sabotaging my day by allowing him into my thoughts/life I just say to myself, again without judgment, I am punishing me..... funny thing is that the desire to punish ME lessens and I get on with something else.

Dont know if this makes any sense.

Very tired,

will talk tomorrow

night all,

axa

[Hopalong]

Thank you for this, Axa...it makes a lot of sense. Not repressing the inner wish and just letting it be what it is:

I say I do not want to take care of myself, not in a judgmental way just as a fact.  The more that I integrate this voice the less power it seems to have.  When I try and push it away and say I MUST TAKE CARE OF ME ........ the less I do it.

I believe you. I'm going to work on being more accepting of myself, then see if it's easier to get into gear.

Ta for now, and thanks again,
Hops

[Dazed1]

Hi GS,

Your post is very powerful.  You are doing a lot of “self” work and it is paying off.  Congrats.  So many things you said are very empowering, like realizing that your Mom acts in unawareness and knowing you can change a lot by shifting your attitude.

I think this is a huge realization:
“I think that I am unconsciously holding on to the powerlessness out of some kind of fear.  It is somehow attached to loneliness and some strange desire for pity.  These things will not help me.  I must let go of them.” “For some strange reason I want someone to reach out to me”

I recently read somewhere (perhaps at my new hangout: http://drirene.com/contents.htm?) that a key part to codependency (as well as Nism) is a feeling of entitlement, a feeling that others are responsible for straightening out my life.  Of course, this feeling is self destructive.

As a ‘recovering’ co-d, I was surprised to hear that this feeling of entitlement is part of being co-d, but your description of feeling a “strange desire for pity” and “For some strange reason I want someone to reach out to me” reminded me of the entitlement aspect of being co-d.

I too feel this “strange desire for pity” and wanting “someone to reach out to me” and I think it is the entitlement, like I want pity and someone to reach out because I’m entitled to have this mess in my life cleaned up. 

On the other hand, sometimes this desire for pity and wanting “someone to reach out to me”  is a desire for validation and for a witness.

Perhaps, by looking at your these feelings, we can distinguish as to whether it’s a desire for entitlement or a desire for validation and a witness (or both, or neither).

“There is some odd balance between giving to others and needing that giving or that attention to come back.”  Is this the feeling of entitlement felt by a co-d?  I’m giving, so therefore, they should give back to me?

“That wound - that deep, original wound that came from my parents anger over being responsible for my needs is at the root.”  Yes, think you are correct and you are showing major awareness.

“As a child and an adult I have waited to receive and raged when I didn't and then waited again.   This is the pattern that has repeated itself over and over.  This is the pattern that my husband and I repeated.”    Wow, GS, so excellent that you recognize the pattern.

But, Question:  You’re giving and expecting someone to give to you in return: Is this the feeling of entitlement felt by a co-d?

“The clear answer it to quit waiting and to go out and get what I need for myself.  Something is scary about that.  It has to do with being cut off and rejected but I'm not sure what.  It has to do with being belittled, and criticized and made fun of.  It has to do with needing help and getting shame instead.  That is it.”   Wow, GS, so much self awareness!!  You have been working hard!!  Excellent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But, I’m gonna play devil’s advocate re: entitlement cuz because I recently recognized the entitlement was a missing piece for me:  Do you feel pissed off that you ‘have’ to do all this work and that you are being forced to “get what I need for myself”?  Do you feel like “Why should I have to get what I need?  Why must I go through all this scary stuff?”

Not fair of me to play shrink without a license, but, it’s an interesting idea.

I wrote the above before reading the responses.  Now that I have seen them, I also agree that the feeling of being “angry at being responsible for my needs, just as my parents once were” is also very relevant.  But, why feel angry for fulfilling your needs? 

Maybe I got Co-d entitlement on the brain, but feeling angry about fulfilling your own needs perhaps points to the question of “why must I be BURDENED with fulfilling my own needs?  Why can’t someone ELSE fulfill my needs?  Someone else should fulfill my needs.”  Is this the feeling of entitlement felt by a co-d?

Again, playing devil’s advocate not only for you, but for myself as well.

But, GS, you are GROWING SO MUCH AND YOU GROWTH IS TEACHING ME AS WELL!!!  CONGRATS!!  SO HAPPY FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Love,
dazed

[gratitude28]

GS,
I have learned in recovery that this irritability is actually a good thing and a sign that you are getting ready to break through a new barrier. When you make progress, you get used to it and then you need some time for your psyche to "catch up" as it were and make the adjustment part of you... ( I hope I am making sense...). When something starts bothering you, it means you are ready to make a new step... so CONGRATS. It is great that you are working out what, exactly, it is time to change. The ideas will coalesce for you soon... hang in there!!!!
Lots of love and teh knowledge that things get better and better.
Beth