sad failure feelings

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Leah.
That was a lovely teaching...gentle, loving.

It is good to talk about how we feel when we realize we didn't protect a child adequately from an Ngrandparent. Much less ourselves.

Another thought I had this a.m. is how much I fear my D's behavior is a choice to be cruel. But I don't want to believe that about her. That's the real pain, I think. Fearing something and being even more afraid to name it. I read this in a Salon column about TV, of all things. Found it validating, amusing and horrifying, and well, that's irony for ya:

Concluding remarks
People who need to torture people are definitely the loneliest people in the world. But don't forget, even sadists like Jack Bauer and the producers of "Grease: You're the One That I Want" and masochists like G. Child and Jus Rhyme and even Lindsay Lohan were once innocent little babies, full of joy and wonder and faith in the parents and friends and society that would eventually teach them to be suspicious and pessimistic and angry, and turn them into fearful, self-doubting obsessive-compulsives who need to crush other people's hopes and dreams just to make themselves feel more alive. We could wish that they might feel love, enough love that they might once again be giddy and openhearted and vulnerable, that they might once again gaze at the branches of trees and feel the cold noses of dogs and pronounce it all exciting and delightful. But then there would be no one to torture the terrorists, and our towns and cities would be teeming with street mimes and ironic rockabilly bands and child psychologists. No thank you, sir!

Hops

[Hopalong]

I am so sorry, Leah.
I understand.

Hops

[axa]

Hi hops,

Well here is my two cents worth.  When your D starts blaming and being angry with you could you try some active listening.  The hard bit is to be present but try to be the observer also.  Mirror back to her what she is saying e.g.  so what you are saying is.....  what I hear you saying is....   all the time you are clarifying her issues back to her.  Let her sit with what she is saying to you.  Stay out of the dialogue yourself, just mirror and listen and see what happens.  I have found this very effective at times.  Also acknowledging what is underneath the statement e.g. you are very angry, you are hurt/sad whatever........... try and keep your counsel and your opinions out of it.  Maybe this will change the dynamic to some degree.

About the abandonment I understand this.  The fear of abandonment keeps us all locked into dysfunctional communication.  Seems like D has raised a big issue for you here.  I often think if I was not afraid what would I do.......... and the answer is sooo much more than now, so much more freedom.

On another note, it sounds to me when someone spends so much time being angry with you and negative they are looking for something.  I wonder are you the only person in the world she feels able to express her anger towards?  I just feel something about feeling safe enough to let it all out with you.  I could be totally wrong but it is just a thought.  Her behaviour is not ok but my guess is that it is about something much more than her words.

On your mothering..........like the rest of us, you did the best you could

Sending you hugs, love, and snuggles,


axa

[moonlight52]

Hops

I am so sorry your daughter is not in a place where she can see you for who you are, she will come around I just know it.
I too have been thru problems with my 2 girls especially with the oldest one.

She blamed me for every painful experience she ever had.And it took a lot of time for her to be out of blaming.
My oldest girl would say things that were hurtful.

I know as a parent I have made mistakes we are human and also as a parent I know my daughter has blamed me for things I even warned her not to do.
It is a sad feeling.But your her Mom and I know she will in time turn to you with love AND her love is there under all her fear and anger......

My oldest girl has said I should have disciplined her more .I was so afraid I would hurt her like I was as a child I went the other way.
Number 2 d is easier and more gentle. My 2 d's are 14 years apart .

Oh Hops to think of you hurting when all you want to do is share your love must be difficult time right now.
Your daughter lost her dad and  maybe she just directs that on to you .
You are so compassionate to be taking care of your mom and all the care you give to her as well.

I do hope your daughter will be open to you explaining the care you give to her grandmother and see how incredibly strong you are and really see the wealth
of love you give.Setting boundaries is something I am just learning .
My oldest girl is 28 now and it has been in the last few years her anger is gone.

When my daughter was behaving in this way all I could think was she sees kindness as a weakness and it's so hard when you just want to love them.
Hops your d  will learn from her mistakes and learn to love and let go of her anger.
so many others have such good advice

love to you hops and for all you do and give here

MOON xoxo

P.S. OMG axa that is so right 

[WRITE]

I fear my D's behavior is a choice to be cruel. But I don't want to believe that about her.

that's true of any adult, though it's usually more complex with unresolved issues and emotions I guess.

Why don't you want to believe it? Is it because she may have unresolved issues and emotions or because you feel responsible?

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Hopalong]

Thank you, Axa.
When my D was about 10 I first learned the "active listening skills " model from a therapy group. I was so excited about it (really, it was revelatory) that I explained the whole thing to her. Darn it. She's too smart for me. One time she was trying to tell me about something and I kept "mirroring" "You feel _____, etc" and she gave me a look and said, Mom, don't use your "skills" on me. Heist on me own petard!  

You're right about another facet of the anger...another T said to me once when I was worried about her anger, a child shows their anger to the parent they feel safest with. Her Dad was intimidating and sometimes mean, so she wouldln't challenge him until late high school. Even so, you're also right that meanness in her isn't okay, and I want to make that clear by calmly stepping back if she hurts me. I don't think I need to analyse her behavior so much, either...just feel better about myself so I feel entitled to say No. I won't go there with you.

Moon, thank you for your kindness and your ever-present faith. It helps me to hear your daughter is turning a corner now, at an older age than mine. I'm very sorry you had to wait for it! And I hope there are many sweet times between you to come.

About your 2nd D being so different...well, there's the gene thing. (One thing a bit scary to me is asking myself if her Dad's personality is now coming out in her...but if it is, I can't control that either.) A better position for me to be in is hopeful but not expectant, and focus on my own growth. I'll always love her regardless.

love,
Hops

[gratitude28]

(((((((((((((((Hopsy))))))))))))

Close your eyes if you are not ready to read this... I'm going to be a bit harsh...

Hops, I know my mother does not love me. I know my mother is a mean N. But I have NEVER treated her the way your daughter treats you.

I agree with Penny, a time will come when you are ready to deal with this (and I hope it's sooner...).  Your daughter is being rude and selfish and rotten. I am not saying that that is what she IS, but that is how she is behaving. And rather than apologizing or trying to figure out what's wrong, you should be telling her you will not accept that behavior from her.

Hops, I really believe that you are far more likely to lose her overall continuing the way you are going now. She feels she can be rude to you and still tap you for money, even when she is taking what you need. She obviously has no respect for her... and you are letting her do that in fear of losing her. My opinion is that if you were to distance yourself and start usinmg that great two-letter word - NO, she might start treating you like an individual.

Hops, it doesn't matter what she is mad or upset about. Now is now and she is an adult, though she sure doesn't act like one.

As for you, I think you need to find some love and happiness in your life from someone else right now... a friend or acquaintance nearby. Is there someone you can go for walks with or get coffee with and get to know better? Of course, we are always here, but a 3D person would be nicer. You won't get the love that you want from your daughter. Not now at least.  Keeping that hope burning is hurting you even more.

((((((((Hops))))))))
I am so sorry you are going through this.

Love you,
beth

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Beth. More starch for my spine.

Everybody/anybody:

What's your opinion on whether I should write her now and say more about how this visit went, and make some statements about boundaries and how I regret not having set them more consistently? Or is that stupid, and I should just do it moving forward...the next time she asks for money, for example. What do you think?

thanks,
Hops

[gratitude28]

I think I would just let it go until the next input from her.
But you could have guessed that!
Thanks for not being upset with my advice.
Love, Beth

[axa]

Hops,

I am a great letter writer but I usually dont send them, which in retrospect I am glad of.  I find them great to get it all out of my system.  I dont think she could hear you now.  She needs someone to blame for whatever is making her unhappy and I think would turn it round to mean that you are just being mean and selfish.  How about write it and sit with it and see what happens.

I think that the whole boundary issue is so deep with so many of us here.  I wonder if loving her means listening and keeping yourself safe.  There seems to be so much negative energy between you right now that adding to the energy may make things more difficult.

What would you get from sending the letter

Do you think it would make things clearer for you/her

Axa

[debkor]

Hops,

I知 going to give you my opinion from being a mom myself to a daughter who has not acted any different then your daughter.  I could bring on my sister about her daughter, my friends and probably any one walking in the street that will say the same thing.
Does my daughter act and feel she is entitled to things some times, yes she does.  She can be a know it all.   My daughter is 22 years old so there is a four-year difference with your daughter, not much.   
She doesn稚 have a lot of money.  She works F/T and goes to college F/T.  She gets crabby and bitchy and lashes out at me.  My opinion is you have to lay the cards on the table.   I have no problem telling mine. I知 sorry if you池e in a bad mood but you will not take it out on me and you can take it back where ever it came from.  You need to remember whom you are talking to.  If you are so miserable then go home come and see me when you are in a better mood or tell me what is really bothering you.  If I知 the one who is bothering you then lets do it. I知 here and I知 listening. 

I think hop that my daughter is having hard time cutting the apron strings and visa-versa. She is really not quite sure of herself even though she is off and flying she is not soaring yet. 

Hops, I enforce my boundaries but I still would have given my daughter a blank check for her doctor and I would of given her food just like you.

I am not going to stop being her mom  (no matter what).

Love Deb

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Deb. It's good to hear from someone who's got a daughter at a similar age. Thanks for absolving me for paying for her doctor, too. Turns out she has slightly abnormal liver tests and now needs an abdominal ultrasound... I am pretty sure it's nothing but we'll find out in a few weeks.

Y'all, thank you. I think the advice to find some silence and let things breathe is exactly what I need to do.

love,
Hops

[Sela]

Hiya Hops:

Finally got a chance to read this whole thread and first, I want to acknowledge your feelings and say that when people close to us say or act insensitively, selfishly even, it seems normal to feel sad and hurt and not cared about.  So your feelings seem pretty normal to me.  So sorry for that pain, Hops. 

A couple things struck me though, reading back on page 2, I think:

I used to refer to my D as "evidence of the god of getting one thing right." To see what we are now, I guess, feels like "evidence that I really have not done anything right." Anything that matters, anyway.

I do this to myself too Hoppy.  Ha!  When everything's perfect.....it's out of my hands but when stuff goes wrong.....it's gotta be my fault....right?

 

People make choices.  Your daughter makes them just like the rest of us.  Much of what she chooses has nothing to do with you.  She's an adult who is capable of behaving well because I bet my bottom dollar you taught her how to behave well...???  Therefore, when she gets grouchy and inconsiderate, is it God's doing or your doing or her doing??????

I think maybe she chooses and because she's human and fallible.....she doesn't always choose wisely.  Not your fault.  Not God's fault either eh?

So lift that weight off your shoulders and give you a break Hops. 

Also, what you said about your D enjoying it so much when it was just the two of you struck a nerve in me too because I remember a similar time and know my kids want me to themselves and will do anything to get that.  Maybe it's a normal longing they have after having that experience.  AFter all, can we blame them?

And now that they're grown up.......we are still mothers.  You will always be a mother (and a wonderful mother at that Hops!) no matter how old your D gets.  Maybe children are always children, in a way too, and will always act out where they feel most safe??  Maybe they will always be less mature around the one parent they feel will love them regardless?  I don't know.  I was just thinking out loud there.

Also, you taking care of your mother might be something she doesn't think she'll be able to do?  Maybe she resents you doing it because she doesn't think she will want to or be able to?  Ofcourse, she really doesn't know how she will feel or what she is capable of until the time comes and things could be much different by then eh?  But now, at this young age, maybe all she can see is you.....wasting your life.....being some kind of martyr......as her grandmother acts thankless and even nasty (in her view)?  Maybe she criticizes because she cares and wants you to be free from all of that?  And maybe a little selfish wanting you to herself to boot?  'Cause around you...she's still a kid?

Last thing Hops:  Please don't allow yourself to feel responsible for so much.  You aren't.  You did all you can do (back on page one, you said something to that effect.......yep!  I agree!!) and you are longing for an adult relationship, which is reasonable.  The thing is....maybe she's just not mature enough yet for that?  It may still happen Hops.  Maybe for awhile yet, you just have to be the grown up, until she grows up a little bit more?  She's an adult but not a fully mature one yet maybe?

(((((Hops)))))

Sela     

[Hopalong]

THANK YOU, Sela.
Yes to every one of your questions!
(And thanks especially for reminding me not to be responsible for everything.)

I am feeling more at peace now.
Partly because I'm at work, which is a happy and positive environment.

I do feel better.
I am enormously grateful to everyone here. I know that the biggest thing is that y'all have simply helped me handle my emotions. I needed a safe place, a soft shoulder (or a dozen), and you gave me this.

Your attention and your time and your effort to write are enormous gifts, acts of compassion and grace.

I am so very grateful.

love,
Hops

[Sela]

Glad you're feeling better Hops.

Your courage in expressing your deep feelings and asking for support humbles me.

I missed about your job (must have missed reading about it).  Yay!!  A job where you feel at peace....a happy and positive environment!!  Fabulous!!  I'm sooo happy for you Hops!!  Exactly what you deserve and what's gotta make life easier!!  That's wonderful news!!

  Sela