I will NEVER understand these Ns!

[DivineSunshine]

I try and I try and I try to fathom how they justify the treatment of others that they dish out.  How they allow someone in their life to be their slave and their victim.  Mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually.

I just keep thinking they will have a heart.

 I would.  You would.  What are they missing?   And they KNOW better because they can' turn it off and on very well for different people and situations.

So how do they live with themselves?  HOW?  That is probably the most maddening thing about it, for me.  I just shake my head, geez, maybe WE are the ones who are not normal.  We...who have a conscience and a moral code and decency.  Sometimes I think kind, thoughtful, pleasant, selfless people are a minority. 

Sometimes I wonder...... 

If I wasn't so bizarre, I wouldn't be affected by this behavior.  I know this isn't right, but......

HOW do they think this is OK??????  I couldn't live with myself.

Yikes!

Namaste & Peace--------really!


Sunny

[moonlight52]

SUNNY

jac's thread   

Healing with love helped me a lot in understanding others and how to get unhooked from n's.
IT IS SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND UNKINDNESS.

Taking care of you first can make it all fall into place.

Blessings

moonlight

[Leah]

The beginning of the recovery process is when you become conscious of the fact that you have been abused by a Narcissist and come to the realization that you do not deserve to be abused.

The next step is to let go of your compulsive endeavours to 'cure' the Narcissist, and give up your hope that your parent or partner will be miraculously changed into the loving, empathic and caring person that you want him or her to be. You have most likely been trying to bring about this dream for a long long time, and it is not easy to come to the point of letting it go.  The golden rule is that if what you have been doing hasn't achieved your goal you need to stop doing it... that is logical and sensible.

Sunny,

Copied the above of 'Recovery' thread ......... Moon has given good advice, you really do need to start care of you first, give yourself compassion and love, because you are valuable, to yourself, and your children.

Thinking of you.

Love,

Leah xx

[DivineSunshine]

Leah and Moonlight,

Well said, you two, well said.  I am working on me.  One step forward two back sometimes.  It's like walking a tightrope and fighting battles on all sides here daily.  And trying to give myself a manicure and hold my own hand.  But I won't give up.  It is a battle worth fighting.  I can finally say that.  Without wondering if I am an N.

I was just reading Jung and he said he first decided to get into psychiatric work when he heard someone call it a "personality disease".  A good term, I think. 

But it misses the mark because the modern interpretation of disease is something that one can do nothing about essentially.  I still can't see how they have no control over this nonsense.
I read Sam V the other day, and he said something like...we hate them because they have a choice and they choose to hurt us.  We can't hate a tornado, it is bad, but it was a mindless act of nature.  But we can hate a villian because we know they had a choice and chose rotten stinking behavior.

Anyway, anyone ever try the display a picture of yourself as a child technique for finding love and compassion for yourself?  Sounds like it may be a good idea since I know that is where my deficiency in those areas began.


Namaste,

Sunny

[seastorm]

Dearest Divine Sun,

You are saying the very things that I am going over and over in my head today. I can tell you all the right answers, but my heart is in very bad shape over this nonetheless. It is a terrible betrayal and the Ns set out to destroy us just as they were destroyed. I am convinced that they act out the drama of their soul murder on their partner in the devaluation phase.  

I will NEVER understand these Ns!
« on: Today at 02:59:48 PM »  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Insert Quote
I try and I try and I try to fathom how they justify the treatment of others that they dish out.  How they allow someone in their life to be their slave and their victim.  Mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually.

AWWWWWWWW ((((((((Divine Sun)))))))))
You were caught by a very big shark who had no place in their brain for mercy or compassion. The harder you tried, the LESS you got. If you distanced yourself the punishment was worse. There is no winning. There is NOTHING you could have done. I bet you tried heroically in every way. You gave everything and it was not enough. This is not good for our psyches and the helplessness and powerlessness is devastating. That means we start to disappear, to be less, to doubt ourselfves, to squash our blessed intuition. We are under a powerful delusion that is like a drug. The delusion is that the false self is the Good, wounded puppy, brilliant, loving partner who will love us till the day they die. Very powerful stuff. Ns will say ANYTHING to get you hooked.  They circle and circle at your beck and call and cling and sing your praises until you are good and hooked.  And then they systematically take control of you body, mind and spirit. There is no corner of your being that is not under attack in an insidious and very clever onslaught of power takeover. You are like an electrical plant to them. They need your power to liive. They will do whatever it takes to get all your power. Including giving you back your power sometimes.

I just keep thinking they will have a heart.

((((((((((((((((Divine Heart)))))))))))))))))))

This is the saddest things I can imagine for you. It is heartbreaking to hear you say this.  Anyone else who was normal and not completely destroyed to the point where they became a Narcissist would have a heart. A heart is probably really called for in your situation.

All day today I have been fighting the impulse to phone N and beg him to have a heart. I know what he will say, " You force me to go. I was desperate so I reached out for the other woman."  If I say to him that he did not pay rent or help with food or expenses for years he will have a big tantrum and just hang up.
But still nearly every molecule in my body wants to have acknowlegment and love from him.  This did not work in the past and it won't work now. It is not enough to just think this. It is a conscious effort like climbing a mountain.  I will not phone and beg him to have a heart.  HE DOES NOT HAVE ONE.  


 I would.  You would.  What are they missing?   And they KNOW better because they can' turn it off and on very well for different people and situations.

They are missing plenty. They had a series of traumas that finallly turned them into deperate predators. They are desperate. They cannot be alone and they have to have supply. And every supply will get it in the end. It sometimes takes years because people hand on.

So how do they live with themselves?  HOW?  That is probably the most maddening thing about it, for me.  

They don't live with themselves because no one is in there. They are reflections of who they are with mostly. That is their problem. They can invent a wonderful character and play it to the hilt in order to win you over. Imagine if you would do ANYTHING to make someone fall in love with you. ANYTHING. Be anybody they wanted. You can get someone to be crazy, mad and panting after you too. Tell em anything they want to hear ( and inside if you are an N part of you is going teee heee heee I'm winning, now I can get what I want from this person   )


I just shake my head, geez, maybe WE are the ones who are not normal.  We...who have a conscience and a moral code and decency.  Sometimes I think kind, thoughtful, pleasant, selfless people are a minority.  

Yep, I feel abnormal too. All these messy, freaked out emotions. All this indignation and heartache and jealousy. All these sleepless nights, panic attacks, flashbacks, loss of trust, withdrawl from life. Meanwhile, he is looking good. Moving on, shaking his head and telling everyone that I am insane. The poor man, how he suffered. He does seem to be thriving with new supply lady. Trips to Mexico, new clothes,new life, new love, new big house and no rent again whoopeeedoooo.
However, in two years I will be so strong from this and will have lived through pain I never thought I could survive for one day. He will still be a shark. There will be others who are maimed for life.

Sometimes I wonder......  

If I wasn't so bizarre, I wouldn't be affected by this behavior.  I know this isn't right, but......

I believe that too. If I was strong and centred I would not get sucked in. You have hit the nail  on the head there. There is tremendous shame and regret and helplessness. That is how people feel who are hit by tornadoes too. This is an emotional disaster.

HOW do they think this is OK??????  I couldn't live with myself.

Well they think it is better than ok. To them it is a success they can chalk up. That is the game.
I hope you can live with yourself now. I hear a lot of pain coming from you. In writing it out you are helping me name the horror of this experience. Thank you. We will help each other through it. It is no small potatoes.
Intellectually I can answer your questions, but that only helps a little. Knowing that I am not the only fool  helps me more. Helping each other through the pain is one step further.  I am starting to really love the fools here. They have heart and it is beautiful.  The  fact that you still have your heart and it hurts is beautiful.
The N couldn't see it or know it.  But the rest of us can.  What a miracle, eh?

Much love to you,

Sea storm

[kell as guest]

Oh Boy!!  I tried to reason with my nmom today.  NO reasoning with her.  Delusional is the only word I can find that describes her at all.  No matter how many times I plead my case, rationally she tries to reason with me irrationally.  After all the time I have put in to distance myself from her, set boundaries with her, etc. she still leads the conversation down her primrose path "suggesting" I do this or telling me I "should" do that.  It has almost gotten comical.  I mean, I could truly laugh in her face with her lunacy!

[Dazed1]

I ssssoooooooooo agree with what everone has written here.

I know what it's like to try to fathom the N:  WHY??? HOW???  I CAN'T UNDERSTAND THEM!!!!!!

So, at this point in my "recovery" I think there's 2 aspects to dealing with Ns: 

The 1st is the "why" and "how".  This is a frustrating aspect because we can NEVER (thank G-D) really be able to understand "why" and "how" the N behaves.

The 2nd aspect is "How do I deal with it?". 

Having read oddles and doodles of books on Ns and FOO dysfunction, I am now more focased on the 2nd aspect of "How do I deal with it?".  The 2nd aspect of "How do I deal with it?" is MUCH MORE FRUITFUL and REWARDING than the 1st aspect of "why" and "how".

"How do I deal with it?" is within our control and we can improve our lives by focasing on this.  The aspect of "why" and "how" is interesting and can explain N behavior, but, we can't control anyone else's behavior, we can only control our own.

For me, at this point, I leave the "why" and "how" of the N to G-D. 

I didn't make the "why" and "how" of the N,
I can't fix the "why" and "how" of the N,
so I leave the "why" and "how" of the N to G-D and to the shrinks & PHds.

Nonetheless, I totally understand that we need to go thru the "why" and "how" stage as we recover from the damage inflicted by the N.

I just have reached the stage where I don't give a damn about the "why" and "how".  There's nothing I can do about the "why" and "how".

I think that there are 3 main keys to the "How do I deal with it?" stage and they are:
1. imposing healthy boundaries
2. listening to the voice within, our subconscious, and
3. Never ignoring Red Flags

Whatever stage you are at in your recovery, know that it's a journey with many lessons along the way.

love,
dazed

[Dove]

I Think  they are so detatched  they dont let them selves feel .Most likely big trauma in past.I  Have  finally walked away  from my abusive  past Only learned to use pc lately. DOVE.

[Hopalong]

Sun, hon.
Time you shine some like light on your poor sore self.
[on edit: well that was an interesting "Freudian sleep" as a friend of mine once said!  Well, I meant them both!]

Your inner life force will respond.
You'll find your way free with the same force the little green shoot uses to crack through the concrete.

(((((Sunny))))

(Never mind namaste. Or...just namaste him from a nice strong legal distance?)

Hops

[Hopalong]

Welcome, Dove.

What a huge step to learn the PC.
You've walked away from your abusive past.
That's huge.

Will be glad to hear more from you.

Plenty of room here for PC amateurs and blitz-typists too!

Hopalong

[mudpuppy]

I think when we're in the midst of recovery we try and understand the "how" and the "why" of Ns.
But later after we've put a few months and miles behind us, those aspects lose their importance.
Somebody once asked George Leigh Mallory why he wanted to climb Mount Everest. "Because its there" was his famous reply.
The thing our healing helps us come to terms with is Ns are just "there". Like a mountain, they're hard and cold and they don't change and they are devoid of feeling.
The how or why they are this way doesn't matter in the long run; that's between them and God. The trick is either going around or over them while still living our life. Going over them is not without risk, Mallory died on Everest after all, but sometimes we don't have a choice. Going around them is usually the better but longer path. Once they're shrinking in our rear view mirror the whys and hows seem to shrink and disappear with them. They are what they are and thank goodness we aren't. The only thing worse than being near one is being one.

mud

[Dazed1]

Mud, 

always a treat to hear your perspective.

Yes, sometimes we have to go over (as opposed to around) the N because we have no choice.

Eventually, as one progresses thru recovery, the N does shrink in the rear view mirror.  I love that image, Mud.  We drive away from the N , leaving them behind and they fade, disappear into the horizon.

An yes, two of the biggest revelations to learn about an N is to thank the Lord we are not an N and to stay far away from one.

dazed

[isittoolate]

It's been 5 years, come June, since I left the N/P. I try to not talk much about him now, as he never really existed as a person. When I could relate to, that charming man who came into my life, IT as nothing more that a puff of smoke--no substance, no character, I was well on my way to healing from him. (Then I began my search into myself.)

What did exist was the evil creature behind the mask, and in retrospect, I see that IT had no conscience. IT was after my money. IT never got any. IT raged and raged with anger, whether drunk or sober. IT was destructive of it's and my personal property.

When I left, IT said, "This is rather sudden, isn't it?"  --after 4½ years?--sudden?

IT tried to hang on as IT needed a bookkeeper. I dissolved our partnership business and left him to the Governmnet and bankruptcy!

Aren't I cruel?

Izzy

[pennyplant]

Izzy, not cruel, strong.

Pennyplant

[PERFECT DESIRES]

HI SUN....
NOW NOW DONT BE SAYIN NEVER...
UNLESS IT BE TO VENT YOUR SPLEEN SO TO SPEAK
SPLEEN CONDITION IN CHINESE MEDICINE WHERE
one's mind gets stuck goin in circles tryin to figure somethin out...

lets see what might help get a grip on narcisisits
first perhaps a distinction or continuum between narciissits and malignant narcissist...
both desire to work the system for personal success

at the lower level of narcissist
they tend more to be unconscious of the nature of grandious self entitlement
as they need a sense of innocence by not recognizing their methods
but when it moves to malignant narcissism such as psychopath or sadist...
then they ......
well time and my mind figits tiempus whatever that latin phrase is..
so later more on malignant narcissism
and how it differs and yet both can be exasperating...
as methinks you feel exasperated at tiems trying to figure out narcissism...

hmm i think this paste from a site might help
NARCISSISM...It manifests aggressive, paranoid, and borderline characteristics, but more commonly appears in the form of envy, greed, power lust, an extensively rationalized sense of entitlement, and a pathological grandiose self. Unlike psychopaths, narcissists can experience loyalty and guilt; but like psychopaths, narcissists lack empathy or caring for others, viewing people as "playthings" to be used. Female narcissists tend to be the kind that "sleep" their way to the top; male narcissists tend to get ahead by becoming involved in massive power struggles. Psychologists suspect that the cause of narcissism is severe mental or physical pain in childhood at the hands of a powerful, idealized mother-father figure. Inconsistent parental attitudes on aggression and self-assertion as well as childhood experiences of being valued for specific, precocious talents seem to be the prime determinants. They never learned who to identify with -- the aggressor or victim, and they developed a pragmatic philosophy of siding with winners, regardless of who was in the right or wrong. In fact, they believe that the "good" is usually changeable and fickle while "bad" is stable and predictable. They live life by idealizing those who satisfy their narcissistic needs and systematically devaluing and denigrating those who do not. Underneath their superficial charm, they feel they have a right to control, manipulate, exploit, and be cruel to others.

THERE ALSO IS A TOPIC IN THIS FORUM ON GUILT VERSUS SHAME THAT MIGHT BE HELPFUL...

BUT A KEY ASPECT I THINK
IS THE QUESTION OF INNOCENCE...
WELL AS SAID TEMPUS FUGUS?  FIGITS    GOOD LUCK THAR