I will NEVER understand these Ns!

[PERFECT DESIRES]

HI CB123 AND SUN
IN REGARDS TO MY LAST POST THAR...

AS YOU MIght be able to tell i like to mix what methinks
intense serious with a bit of levity and tongue in cheek...

first to mind be somethin bout where i had mentioned n's
as seeking success...
well sun, u all mighta heard how n's way to success has as an aspect that
methinks is one of the major markers of narcissists and maliignant narcissists[mainly psychopaths, methinks]
namely, being bold by blocking major issues of self doubt and finding clever ye, even ingenious ways of
doubting others and bringing others into doubt of themselves for having doubted the narcissist
who sees themselves and open and honest and sincere
which tho methinks be not the case with malignant narcissists
as they know full well they are hiding dirty tricks that they would mess their plans up ifn discovered.....

what i had pasted in my last email form a site on the narcissist-psychopathic spectrum by 0'connor
might me helpful here..namely:
Unlike psychopaths, narcissists can experience loyalty and guilt; but like psychopaths, narcissists lack empathy or caring for others, viewing people as "playthings" to be used.
NOW THE THING IS THAT A NARCISSIST MIGHT THINK OF THEMSELVES AD HAVING EMPATHY
WHICH IS SO ER DARN FRUSTRATIN AS TO HOW THEY DONT SEE THAT THEY OFTEN LACK IT...
WHERE THE PSYCHOPATH[MALIGNANT NARCISSIST] TAKES JOY IN HIS SKILL
IN HURTING OTHERS AND MAKE OTHERS DOUBT THEMSELVES..
WHEREAS THE NARCISSIST MIGHT ENJOY IT BUT ONLY WHEN
SOMEONE HAS NOT BOUGHT INTO THEIR WONDERFUL AS IF CARING IMAGE OF THEMSELVES
AND ARE A THREAT TO WHAT THE NARCISSIST THINGS IS THEIR REAL WONDERFUL SELF...
WHERE THE PSYCHOPATH IS NOT TRYING TO SELL A WONDERFUL SELF IMAGE
THAT THEY BELIEVE IN AS PRESENTED...
HERE IN THIS FORUM I FIND THAT OFTEN THIS DISTINCTION IS NOT MADE
AND CAN LEAD TO SOME CONFUSION IN UNDERSTANDING NARCISSISTS...
NOW AS TO
SINCE TIME IS FIDGETING TEMPUS FUGIT   
AS MUCH AS IN MY LAST POST

NOW AS TO WHY THEY DO WHAT THEY DO...
HOW BOTH ARE RELATED AND YET DIFFER
IN WHY THEY DO WHAT THEY DO....
HMMM
METHINKS AS ALL NEUROSIS AND PSYCHOSIS IT COMES FROM A KIND OF SURVIVAL MODE
NOW THE SCHIZOID TYPE OF SURVIVAL MODE IS A TENDENCY TO ESCAPE INTO IDEALISTIC OTHER WORLDLY SENSE OF SECURITY
BUT THE PSYCHOPATH IS THE OPPOSITE METHINKS
NAMELY
TO HAVE POWER AND SUCCESS IN TERMS OF THE REAL RIGHT NOW WORLD...
AND THEY CAN BECOME VERY GOOD AT READING THE PRESENT WORLD
WHERE POWER IS AND WHERE WEAKNESSES ARE
IN TERMS OF OTHERS
BUT NOT IN TERMS OF THEIR OWN HIDDEN INNER THOUGHTS AND DOUBTS...
THAT MIGHT WEAKEN HANDLING THE IMMEDIATE ENVIRONMENT SUCCESSFULLY
WITH A FAIR AMOUNT OF SHOW AND BRAVADO...
CRUSHING ANYONE WHO DOUBTS THEM
AND THEY CAN HAVE CLEVER LONG TERM PLANS
HOW TO DO IT
AND WHAT IS FRUSTRATING ABOUT THE NARCISSIST
IS HOW GOOD THEY ARE AT DOING IT BUT MUCH OF THIS MANIPULATION
IS DONE ON THE SUBCONSCIOUS LEVEL SO THAT THEY CAN KEEP THEIR WONDERFUL SELF IMAGE
THEY REALLY BELIEVE IN THEMSELVES AND WOULD LIKE TO HAVE OTHERS ACCEPT...
WHERE THE MALIGNANT NARCISSIST KNOWS THE PROBLEMS IF OTHERS KNEW THEIR METHODS..

ONCE AGAIN WHAT CAN MAKE IT FRUSTRATING TO GET A GRIP ON NARCISSISM
IS NOT TO RECOGNIZE THE ABOVE DISTINCTION....

UHOH METHINKS THAT OLE MIND AND TIME FIDGITS OR FUGITS .... IS HERE
SO LATER GATOR:)

[axa]

Oh the How and the Why

I too have struggled with this and still do.

Bottom line.  You are nothing other than supply and a thing to project their hatred onto.

You are not a person, you do not have feelings, you do not have a heart.  You are like a chair/table/object.

They do NOT care.  It is very hard to understand this but I believe this is the truth.  What you suffer is irrevelant.  How their children suffer means nothing.  They are insatiable, they want and want and want and if you stop giving or a better supply appears they move on.

We were part of their drug and when we stopped being the drug they have gone elsewhere to find more drugs.

They have an ability to start each day new with no introspection about what damage they have caused. 

They are cold empty vessels looking to be filled up.

Sometimes with XN I used to think he was not human.  I feel that still.  He lacks humanity.  To know you are nothing to them is hard but also may be the way out.

axa

[DivineSunshine]

Axa,

I actually noticed my NH try to make himself show empathy yesterday, when he realized I was watching something on the news that was incredibly sad, and tears came to my eyes, he had no reaction really.  But he saw me, so when he changed to another news channel and saw the exact same report, he made sure he put in all the correct emotions---for show, of course.

When he watched an earlier version of the same tragic story the other night, he was only concerned and mad because they broke into his TV show to tell about it.  I didn't used to notice this stuff.  I do now and I get frustrated because I want to call out him on it, but I know he will not get it--- or rage.

I want to call him out because he denies being un-empathetic and self-involved and has asked me to prove it!  No thanks, I don't need the extra drama you pour on to defend yourself.  Just keep thinking you are perfect, dear.
The way his mind works is amazing really.  Sad, but amazing.  Now he is just like my 7th child.  He is worse then my two-year old.

Then, we watch a sad movie that made him comment (for show) that he is worried about our middle daughter, because she is so worried about him trying to move out again when he rages.  Which he has done a lot lately.  She is very nervous nowdays.  I realize soon he just brought it up to keep me in check to I make sure I won't upset him again.  I am stupid enough for a moment to think he really wants to discuss our daughter and I agree she is very troubled and she has been for quite a while due to pressures in our life since she was born which have made both of us tense and is finally taking its toll on our marriage. 

In his true-to-form Nism, his "concern"  for her and the heart-to-heart discussion I am foolish enough to try to foster with him is turned immediately into a pit party for him.  He becomes sullen and pouty at 1 AM and begins to moan about what a failure HE is and how bad that makes him feel.   Waaa waaa waa.  I, as usually console him, now I just want to get to sleep since the conversation is pointless.  So I feed his stupid little N ego enough ...well, lies.......and while I am talking----HE FALLS ASLEEP!  Like a baby with a bottle!

I wanted to kick him right out from his slumber just for being such an idiot.  And putting me through this and pretending to care!  And I wanted to shake my self back into reality for actually thinking he CARED about her!  He gets me with that one frequently.  He actually tried to get me to fall apart on him earlier in the evening and I wouldn't, so I guess he used the kids for bait, so he could draw me in to give him compliments.  Unbelievable!

But as you said, we are just tables, chairs, etc.  They will use us to fill up their empty selves.  His family who tries to love and adore him are his drug.  Lovely.   And he claims he isn't addicted to anything. 

 It is all for show!

Good luck to all who are dealing with these people----you MUST be incredibly strong!

Sunny

[debkor]

Oh, oh , I forgot to tell you all.

I don't know how I forgot this.

Anyway, you all know my exN was in jail for a long time.  I have not heard or spoke to him oh in about 14 years.

A few months ago I got a call from a New York area code.

I answered it and they asked for my ex.  I thought this is really odd and got paranoid.
I told them he didn't live here ever.  They said OK and hung up before I could ask anything else.

I got another call about 2 weeks later.  Same thing asking for him.
This time I said why are you calling my  house he does not live here he never did.
What is it you want?  They said they could not tell me it is personal business.
I demanded that they identify themselves since they were calling my home.
They would not.  They did say although.  You are on the contact list that you can be contacted.
I said who put me on a contact list.  They said he did. I said when? they said a year ago.

Almost fainted.  This is how I found out he was out of jail
They did not tell me who they were but I got the feeling they were bill collectors.  You know how you have to list friends and family if you get a loan in case the loan company is looking for you.  He put me down.
OMG, after all these years how nuts is that!!!
I wonder why though? Gives me the hebe gebies.
What was he up to now?


Love Deb

[Lupita]

My mom told me once that she wished I was dead. She said that if I died her pain would stop. I will never understand. That is only one of the thousand things that she has told me. I felt abandoned all my life. Despite that my mom was always a good provider, and I never lacked food or roof. Until now she always tells me ugly things. I will never understand why.

[gratitude28]

Welcome to Dove and Desire!!!!!! Looking forward to hearing more about and from you!!

I always think I get past the question why... but then it returns to me. You know, she justiufies everything (as if she knows what she does is wrong). I remember growing up and hearing "A parent always loves one child more than another." I think she read it or heard it somewhere. You know, having my own children, I just don't believe that is true.

And, I think it was Deb or Sunny that mentioned copying emotions. Isn't that creepy? They see how others react and copy it... and sometimes it isn't quite right. Or they go overboard... or use it in the wrong context. It is like a child trying out vocabulary...

I am having a rough few days of "why...."

Love to all of you,
Beth

[Hopalong]

Dear Lupita:
I am so very sad to read this. I don't understand it either:

My mom told me once that she wished I was dead. She said that if I died her pain would stop. I will never understand. That is only one of the thousand things that she has told me. I felt abandoned all my life.

It occurs to me that you are wise to say this: I will never understand.

I don't think you owe this tragic husk of a mother any more of your precious life, trying to hard to understand something that is really just like a cruel accident of nature: sometimes there just is never, not ever, a satisfactory explanation for something savage and empty. But we know that savage and empty things do exist in nature.

Sometimes I think we try desperately to see all human beings as something different than nature. Always redeemable, always changeable. As though somehow, some way, every deepest question CAN find an answer.

I have found some peace in painful areas of my life letting go of craving an answer. It is almost the only way to release yourself from emotional torture.

I hope very much for you that you will find the kindest, gentlest human beings you can, even if it's an old gentle nun...to be with, to tak to, and to share this pain.

There really does come a point, if you share it enough to exhaust the telling, when the pain will lift from you.

And then, one day, you will be an older but very wise woman, who gives love...a lot of it, because you know better than most human beings what it is like to live as a child without it.

Your sad and desperate childhood with a mother who was not a mother does not close you out of the possibility of human happiness. You have hope. You have a good mind. You have a persistence, even in sadness...

Maybe at some point the question could change for you, from Why could my mother not love me? To...how do I learn to love myself? I am allowed to learn this!

And then, who around me needs love? What will I do in the world that is real, that welcomes all the love and work I have to contribute?

Just thoughts, but I hope they help you, Lupita.

Sleep well and cozy,

Hops

[CB123]

Lupita,

Hops is right.  Some things you just can't understand. 

When you are a kid, you feel as though your mom must have some good reason for saying that. You're just a little girl, and you are supposed to depend on your mother to tell you who you are and how the world works.  But your mom didnt do that.  What she said didnt tell you about who you are.  It did give you a glimpse into the darkness in her soul. 

I see you fighting your way to the light, Lupita--kinda shaking off all that clingy, sticky darkness as you go.  Even in the last couple of days, I see you fighting your way loose from some of it.  Keep fighting.   

Your mom lied to you, Lupita--her pain has nothing to do with you.  It is just one more sticky, dark thing that you will shake off.   

We're glad you are here.  We are grateful that you live!

CB

[reallyME]

Sunny,

The think that helped me understand the N's was by looking into their childhood and realizing one simple thing:  the receptors (wires, if you will) that would have caused N, as a child, to learn empathy, sympathy, caring, responsibility acceptance, ability to delay their gratification, etc, just NEVER GOT CONNECTED.  N's are like machines, robots, that can only mimic what they see, and spit out what has been programmed into them.  If you learn about them, you will note that they respond with ROTE RESPONSES.  They are very predictable in many cases, always responding with some cruel, manipulative comment or another, and always seeming to shock others who are not prepared for their TACTLESSNESS.

An N is the only person I know who, when you wake them up in the middle of the night, by a phone call, saying "oh, I'm sorry I disturbed you..." will say "yeah you DID, but what do you want?" (Most people with tact would say "oh that's ok, is everything all right?")

or how about:

me: "how do you like this dress on me?"
N: "great if you are auditioning for the part of porky pig"

Tactful: "that dress is nice, but maybe you could try one that enhances your features a bit more"

N's tend to "say what everyone else is really thinking" and they do it A LOT!  Most people were taught to be TACTFUL and SAVE FACE in how they talk with others...the N MISSED THAT LESSON OBVIOUSLY.

You most likely wouldn't say to a child:  "I'm busy and your ugly face is making me sick while I'm putting my makeup on.  Can't you just go play or something?"

You might say:  "honey, Mommy's busy now.  As soon as I get my makeup on, we'll go do something together, ok?"

You most likely wouldn't say: "Sit up straight and tuck your shirt in...their are big NAMES here at this conference and you are making me look bad.  You don't want to make Mommy lose this account, now do you?"

You might say:  "Honey, let's tuck your shirt in and hope Mommy can nail this account, hehe, right?"

You most likely wouldn't say: "Don't mess with those vases.  YOU DON'T WANT TO GET HURT NOW, DO YOU?"

You might say:  "Don't mess with those vases. I don't want you to get hurt, dear."

N's tend to make your decisions for you, right in front of  you ESPECIALLY THEIR CHILDREN:

I've heard at my restaurant, an N parent TELLING THEIR CHILD WHAT THAT CHILD WANTS TO EAT, EVEN AFTER THE CHILD ASKED FOR SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

child: "I want the burger." "Oh, you DON"T WANT THAT.  (to me) "He'll have the hot dog" (to child) "they don't have anymore burgers, honey."

what a TRIP!  Makes me want to scream at that parent out of my own "need to control" at times.  LET THE POOR CHILDREN HAVE A MIND OF THEIR OWN. ALLOW THEM TO INDIVIDUATE, dang it!

~Laura