Author Topic: The story so far  (Read 3511 times)

maitri

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The story so far
« on: February 10, 2007, 03:22:14 PM »
Hi everybody,

By way of an introduction, I'm a 31 year old, married mom of a toddler son. I've been treated for depression in the past and in the course of that, I spent a few years seeing a very talentend and helpful therapist who very literally changed the way I looked at my life. I'm a much healthier, happier person because of the work I've done, and it's been many years since I've felt depressed.

However, this past few months has been pretty unnerving. My mother called in September to tell me she had left my father, (who I had decided during the course of my therapy has NPD). At first I figured she was just sick and tired of his grandiose personality, his moodiness, etc... but, bit by bit, I started to flash back to something he had said several years before; he got very drunk on a visit to my house, and told my husband and I that "open marriages" were the only type of marriage that could succeed, and we'd better get with the program. He said that he and mom had been living that way for years. Then, after he sobered up a bit, he told us never to tell my mother what he had told us, because she'd be horrified that we knew. I buried both the conversation, and the rage I felt at him betraying mom's privacy and putting me in a position of keeping secrets (so reminiscent of events from my childhood....) As a matter of fact, the walls started closing in around me shortly after this all happened, and it was the final straw that tipped me into depression and ultimately to therapy.

Anyhow. I finally plucked up the courage to tell my mom what Dad had told me about their 'open marriage' and she just sobbed and sobbed. Apparently, what he thought was an open marriage, she experienced as sexual abuse. He co-erced her with the usual NPD tricks (withdrawl, threats, verbal abuse, sulking, belittling, etc etc) until she agreed to do anything to keep their marriage from breaking up becase of her 'prudishness' as he would put it.

So, when all of this came out into the open, I thought for a few weeks and decided that I couldn't, just couldn't, have my father in my life or god forbid, that of my son. My husband has always been very quiet on the topic of my father, except to say that he thought my dad was ridiculously manipulative and should be around us all as little as possible for our best mental health. So he supported my decision fully - with relief that I'd finally seen him "for what he is" in fact.

My father sent one last letter before I told him I couldn't have him in my life. I couldn't face reading it - it made me throw up to think about it, because I knew it would be a litany of manipulation - so I asked my husband to read it and give me bullet points. It was eleven pages of barely-coherent, blatantly untrue statements about his marriage, (he wrote that the swinging stuff started just one year ago, and was his way of trying to make sure mom was fulfilled while he struggled with Erectile Dysfunction! After he had told me himself, 7 years ago, that they had an open marriage because it was the only way to have a sucecssful marriage! Argh I get so angry when I think of the lies....), all mixed in with stories of his painful battle with colon cancer (first and last anyone heard about it) and heart disease (likewise), and regrets about how he was sorry to hurt me, and how much he missed my son.

I responded and told him I hadn't read his letter and didn't intend to, and that I would pray for his improved physical and mental health. That was the last connection we've had. My brother tried to hear Dad out, just telling him that he wanted to be there for him, and that the only condition was that he stopped talking about what other people were doing (e.g. mom) and focused on what he was doing. Dad never replied to my brother's email in which he said that, and has told my aunt that my brother and I are 'against him'. He now refers to us in talking to my mother (via his lawyer) as 'her children'.  I think that says it all.

The pain of cutting my Dad out of my life has caught me offguard. I literally dream at night sometimes about the pain I'm causing him, and I wonder about the future and whether I should try and re-establish some sort of minimal contact.

Logically I know this would fail, and I'm just trying to soothe the pain of losing my father. I always hoped that despite his NPD he wasn't REALLY hurting anyone, and that by living relatively far away and limiting his participation in my life, I'd be able to 'wait it out' until he 'grew up'. I see that as denial, now, and so although I had 'accepted' his NPD before, this is the first time I've really had to deal with the reality that it's worse than I thought and it's not going away.

I'm also wrestling with the old demons of how to set up boundaries, but this time, with mom and my aunts. My mom isn't blameless in all of this - she means well but she blurts things out - lilke the line about my Dad calling my brother and I 'her children' - that I really don't want to hear. I'm hurting enough already. I'm trying hard to employ everything I've learned in therapy, to cope. I'm doing well, most of the time. But it's hard, and as much support as my husband has been (it sounds cliche but we're literally closer than ever as a result of all this - I've forced myself to share with him, even when I was 'scared to be a bore / scared to show him I was hurting in case it was tedious' - and he's responded really, really well), I could use the support of people who understand.

So, I find myself here. I've been reading your posts, and I see a lot of wisdom, kindness and love in this board. I'm grateful to have found it, and I'm grateful to anyone who makes it to the end of this incredibly long post!

All the best to all of you in all your journeys.

Maitri

ps: I chose my screen name because in Buddhism - which is becoming a great comfort to me - it means, "Loving-kindness to oneself; the prerequisite of compassion for others." It's what I aspire to, and I wish it for us all.

isittoolate

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Re: The story so far
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2007, 04:03:16 PM »
((((maitri ))))))))

To cut to the chase, once one realizes that one is dealing with an N, then the best course of action is NO CONTACT. It works.

No emails, snail mails, phone calls, cards, visits. Total disconnection to be able to heal from the pain the N has caused.

You are SO fortunate to have your loving, understanding husband as a support system.

These experiences lead us to understand that we have to tighten our boundaries. You appear to have the answers for what you need, and now is the time to enforce them.

You will have contact with your mother (aunts, etc.)? I suggest it be specified no talk about dad! Can you pull this off? Do you still love your father?

Love and Luck
Izzy


pennyplant

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Re: The story so far
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2007, 07:10:06 PM »
Welcome, Maitri.

This struck me:

The pain of cutting my Dad out of my life has caught me offguard. I literally dream at night sometimes about the pain I'm causing him,

The pain we cause them...... That is how they get us.  Narcissism is how they have chosen to deal with their pain because they are too afraid to face it the way we do.  They are well-defended by their Narcissism.  They only do things that defend their idea of who they should be.  They are always fine because they always meet their own needs first.  They can't even really receive what we want to give them because they don't want what we can give.  They always want what we can't give.  Then we feel terrible and that makes them feel good.  And they won't give us anything because they need it all.

They simply don't look at relationships the way we do.  You really can't hurt him in the way you imagine because he protects that part of himself so solidly.  That is what Narcissism is all about.  Complete and total self-protection.  And they started doing this so early in life, they probably can't even explain it to themselves.  It is all they know.  It is TRUTH to them.  They are insulated from truly caring about others.

This message board is a very good place to bring your feelings and ideas to.  It is amazing to me how far I have come since finding this board--a year ago now.  I have made more progress in this one year than in my entire lifetime (I'm 45) of wondering what was wrong and why did things always turn out for me a certain way.  I feel pretty fortunate to have found it.  I hope it works that way for you too.

Pennyplant
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

WRITE

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Re: The story so far
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2007, 07:18:43 PM »
"open marriages" were the only type of marriage that could succeed, and we'd better get with the program. .....he told us never to tell my mother what he had told us, because she'd be horrified that we knew.

I have lost count over the years of the number of people who have said 'open marriage' when what they really mean is 'affair' or 'cheating'....and as for 'swinging' well it seems quite abusive to me not liberated.

How awful to be confronted with your parents' sex and emotional life like this, no wonder you feel traumatised.

Maybe you need a break from them both for a while?

I cut my dad out for a couple of years about 3 or 4 years ago, I did exchange letters with him but would not take his calls; he's overseas so visits weren't an issue.

It was painful and I worried about it a lot but it did set a boundary and one which he has hardly pushed since. It was the only thing that worked- I had talked to him so often about his lack of respect for me and my feelings.

Maybe if you try not to see it in terms of all or nothing, it may not be permanent but right now you need to be away from him.

Also your mother's pressure for you to take sides isn't helpful.

When I stopped talking to my father my sister took his side and told me I was really mean. That made it harder because I felt like the whole family was falling apart and somehow it was my fault, so I took a step back from her also- we did still speak but no more talking about dad or family relationships for a while.

We're all fine again now btw. I finally figured they are who they are, and I can only respond to that as is appropriate. If they do hurtful things they won't hear from me for a while!

Love your username.

once one realizes that one is dealing with an N, then the best course of action is NO CONTACT. It works.

this may be true on one level, but I think most families are more complicated than this. I was more distressed than ever when I stopped talking to my dad ( who is borderline pd not N ) and with my ex I have spent three years building a relationship because we have to parent together. It's been hell at times but I felt there was no choice otherwise it would turn into a ten year power struggle over our son; in fact rather than do that I would have stayed in the marriage or give my boy up completely.

It's hard with Nism. The person finds it almost impossible to grow and change, even with all his therapy my ex has barely moved except he now modifies his behaviour to accomodate others. That in itself is a huge growth for him, but in terms of having a relationship with him I have to accept his considerable limitations and allow for them; same with dad.

I have looked around for other people to give me the warmth and validation I need; it's no use expecting people to give it to me who can't.

Narcissism is how they have chosen to deal with their pain because they are too afraid to face it the way we do.

absolutely, and almost whatever you do will cause him pain or if you do nothing, so don't feel responsible for it. The damage was done long before it could possibly be about you, you can only limit the effect he can have in causing you pain whenever he's acting out.

The problem is when we have families who don't deal healthily with negative emotions they get projected on us, and we end up caretaking somehow, and feeling more responsible than we ever need to.

The board has been excellent for me too.


pennyplant

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Re: The story so far
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2007, 07:24:23 PM »
almost whatever you do will cause him pain or if you do nothing, so don't feel responsible for it. The damage was done long before it could possibly be about you, you can only limit the effect he can have in causing you pain whenever he's acting out.

This makes so much sense.
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

moonlight52

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Re: The story so far
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2007, 08:35:41 PM »
Welcome maitri ,

Your life is yours to make what ever choices you feel are best.
This idea that you have to take care of your parents feelings is the problem

I bet your parent is grown enough to take care of his/her own feelings
 I do not require my children to help or care for my emotional needs.......
What is causing you more pain staying in or getting out????

Blessings

Moonlight





maitri

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Re: The story so far
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2007, 08:49:04 PM »
Thank you everyone who's replied so far. You've all raised so many good points it's hard to know where to start!

to Izzy and Write re my Mom:

you guys are right, I need to start being more firm with boundaries. I have started telling people to stop when I don't feel comfortable with a conversation, and they always apologise and drop it. But, I left out the very worst part of my boundary-less behaviour to date; my Mom was terrified to go to the family court alone the first time, and I offered to go with her. If I hadn't offered, would she have found someone else to go with her? Yes. If I hadn't offered, would she have asked me? I don't think so. But I wanted to support her and - frankly - I enjoyed being the 'good daughter' and taking care of her in her time of crisis.

I really paid the price for putting myself in that situation. It was awful - worse than awful; I felt like I was stabbing my Dad in the heart, just by walking into the place. It made me feel wretched. I don't think it's so unreasonable to say that a child, no matter what age, has no business being involved in their parents' divorce. But as for distancing from my Mom entirely - well, I don't want to. She is so ashamed about her part in all of this, so ashamed to have a 'failed marriage' (she's old-school Catholic) and so ashamed to have been in the whole sexual weirdness, that she'd take my pulling back as a sign of dissaproval. I love her and would hate to hurt her. I also have feelings for her other than concern for HER feelings, though you'd never guess it reading the above! I'm going to have to think about that some.... But to be fair to Mom, she tried to shield my brother and I from the sordid facts of this; she tried to leave it so that we didn't have to take sides. It was only when I told her I knew about her 'open marriage' that she spilled the beans, and let us know what was going on behind closed doors, so to speak. It might sound like I'm taking her side of the story as gospel without any evidence but there's plenty of little, puzzling incidents from my childhood that now make absolte, total sense and corroborate what she's saying. After all that fell into place, she didn't have to ask me to take sides. I just love and support her, and think what my father did was monstrous.


To Penny, Izzy and Write about me hurting my Dad:

You're right, you know. He was damaged by his parents in ways I can't begin to effectively describe. One small example: when he was a young toddler, my (horrifically NPD) grandmother would leave him in a crib with water and crackers and go to work for 6 hours a day, while my grandfather worked too. She says they needed the money. They were immigrants, but surely even as broke immigrants, they could have arranged for a neighbor to babysit...? As a mother, the very idea of a toddler left completely alone in an apartment for 6 hours a day, 5 days a week, for weeks at a time makes me want to weep. It's amazing he's not a serial killer. Aside from all that, he was raised with ferocious, scathing verbal attacks if he did anything she didn't approve of, but then she also told him how wonderful he was and even cut up his meat for him at mealtimes, well into adulthood. Bewildering. It's no wonder he is how he is - he had to learn not to feel or he would have simply died from confusion. By the time I was 16 he had cut her out of his life, and all of our lives in the process - for about the 4th time I can remember. I haven't spoken to her or my granddad on that side since then.

To answer Izzy's question, which I've been thinking about all day, yes - I do love him, despite what he's done and who he is. The only analogy I can think of, is the way I feel for him is a bit like the way I'd feel about a vicious dog. Imagine a dog that spent its whole life being kicked, beaten, prodded until it became dangerous. I would feel sympathy and love for the creature - it never asked to have the life it did - but I would also realise that I didn't want it anywhere near me, or near anyone else for that matter. So I love him in a detached way, that doesn't involve actually enjoying him being in my life. I don't miss him, not really, because he was so stressful to be around - you never knew what was going to set him off into a gigantic sulk.

I guess when I think about how much I'm hurting him I should really think, as you guys point out, that the damage was already done. I know how throw-away people are to him - when I left home at 19, he told me I was dead to him and wouldn't speak to me for 4 years. We eventually put it behind us via my constant efforts to stay in touch. He never apologised for cutting me out of his life, of course - we just let it go.

When I told him last summer that I didn't like the way he had behaved during a visit to our house, he told me that if I didn't like his behavior than I needn't think of him as my father any more. At the time I told him not to be so silly, that I wasn't interested in his drama, and if he ever pulled that 'I'm out of your life forever' stuff again, it really would be forever. If I knew then what I know now!! But, I guess where I'm going with this is, if he was so willing to break off his relationship to his daughter, son in law and grandson over a silly argument, perhaps that reflects how 'deeply' or not he cares about us. And that's quite a liberating thought - because if he doesn't care, I don't have to feel so guilty.


maitri

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Re: The story so far
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2007, 08:51:17 PM »
Thank you Moonlight - you're absolutely right. I want the freedom, the peace, of not having my Dad in my life, but I don't want the pain that making that sacrefice entails. But, the pain of NOT breaking it off would be so much greater, and the fear of his influence, manipulation, criticism affecting my son is enough to keep me strong in maintaining silence.


debkor

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Re: The story so far
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2007, 11:07:58 PM »
Maitri,


My mom’s dad was an N. He was horribly mean to his children and his wife.
He was especially hard on my mom since she was the oldest.

I remember my grandmother being at our house often.  I can remember always being very soft looking, always smiling. When I think about her now I can still see in my mind exactly what she looked like but I can see as an adult she had almost child like eyes.

I remember her always sitting in the kitchen with my mom having coffee and talking.
I remember my mom being annoyed and not happy with her father.  As little as I was I could read the tension all over my mothers face and body when her father name came up.

I remember my grandfather coming to our house at 1am in the morning and was sitting in the living room.  I remember being in my red and white pin stripe pjs and my cousin sleeping over right next to me.  I remember hearing my dad, my mom and now my cousin’s dad in the living room with my grandfather. I remember trying to go out there.
I remember them saying to stay in my room.  I remember my mom with my aunt on the phone.  I remember my uncle and dad pacing with anger.   I remember my dad and uncle calling him a bum.  I remember my grandfather was drunk and carrying on.  I remember police officers showing up.  I remember the police talking to me coming by my room to go to the kitchen with blood filled towels and trying to calm me.  I remember what the towels looked like.  I remember my grandfather sitting on the couch with his stupid drunk face and his skull split wide open.   He had fallen down a flight of stairs coming to our house trying to borrow money for a bookie.  I was 5 years old.  

I didn’t know my grandfather very well.  I didn’t understand why.  I saw my grandfather but only when we went to visit which were not often or long. I remember maybe 3times at their house maybe.  I was never allowed alone though.  Either my mom or dad was right next to my sister and me.
I remember when I was about 10 standing outside a store and my grandfather driving by in a big truck with coal on it and asking if I wanted a ride home.  I remember being all excited to go and then having the fear of God if I did.  My moms over and over never ever go with your grandfather so I stayed right where I was.  I remember telling my mom he could of gave me a ride.  I remember her looking like I just told her I met Freddie Kruger.
I remember her panic and reinforce I never go.  

I remember my Grandfather working in a Florist.  I remember I was not allowed to talk or be alone around him either. I remember I couldn’t take it and went in cause he gave me a free flower.  
I remember bringing home the flower and my mother freaking out.  I remember being so upset that I was in so much trouble and didn’t know why.  I remember she felt really bad that she upset me so much.

I remember when my grandfather was sick and dying my mom and her sisters went to help him in his house on his dying days.  I remember seeing my mom get so tight, so almost stone looking that if I was to touch her she would crack into a million pcs.

I remember my mom telling my dad that her dad asked for forgiveness on his deathbed and I remember she said NO.

I remember my mom suffering for years after of all the things he had done to her.
I remember I really didn’t know what he did to her.

I know some things now as an adult.

Her father was extremely abusive.  He beat her.  He beat my grandmother. He was a drunk. He gambled money away. He had other women and so on so forth.  He would come drunk to our house if not stumbling with the police.  He was a big B.S artist and so on.

I suspected other things he did to her but not for sure.

I remember now that my mom protected me with all her being.
And now when I go through my memories I remember that my mom would of been so much better off with no contact of her Father. Maybe she would of been spared some pain.   
Take care of your son, hon.
And take care of yourself.
 
You know what is best for him and your family.  Protect him as best as you can and he’ll always remember even if he didn’t understand when he was young.
Just coming from a grandchild of a N Grandfather
Love Deb.

debkor

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Re: The story so far
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2007, 11:29:10 PM »
Wow,

I didn't know how much that night affected me with my Grandfather.   When I read your post I pictured your son like when I was little and his grandfather maybe being drunk around him and it just exploded my memories into full blown living color.
I didn't even know how much I remembered.  My fingers were flying typing away.
This is one powerfull board.
 Love Deb

seastorm

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Re: The story so far
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2007, 03:49:21 AM »
Maitri:

Welcome. I was glad you wrote an indepth story of what happened to you. I am sure there is lots more there and I would be glad to hear all of it or little parts. However, you want to tell it. There is something healing about this. Maybe you need to tell it over and over.That is ok too.
I was struck by how much you care for your mom and dad and how much you worry about  them. There is more to relationships than worry. Creating a focus where you insist on doing things together that are structured and have clear boundaries is so important.Nothing should be allowed to harm your little family.
Your mom needs ongoing counseling from a professional after living with your dad and experiencing sexual abuse and bondage.
I would say that after all this angst that you had no part in creating that you deserve a very nice,calm and fulfilling life. Who is the parent here ??????  You don't have to parent them.
I can imagine that growing up in this environment was brutal.
Take time for yourself. They are grownups and must seek help from professionals and defineately not from their daughter. Shame on both of them. This is not mature love.
Oh I sound like a mean old auntie, but I really think they have been causing you much too much trouble. A little discipline and some boundaries are in order.

I hope you can be tough with them. You have grown up and it is time that they did too.

Love,
Sea storm

Ps  Feel free to tell me I am out to lunch on this.

CB123

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Re: The story so far
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2007, 05:57:00 AM »
Deb,

I see where you got your strength.  Your mom sounds like a wonderful woman. I'm so glad that she stood between her father and you.  She knew why she needed to do that.

CB
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

Hopalong

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Re: The story so far
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2007, 07:27:20 AM »
Hi again Maitri,
What Deb said really struck me...(the whole story, Deb, and you are a novelist):
Quote
now when I go through my memories I remember that my mom would of been so much better off with no contact of her Father. Maybe she would of been spared some pain.   
Take care of your son, hon.
And take care of yourself.
   I just want to echo her, how right this sounds.  :(

I understand your refusal to abandon your mother, but your Dad abandoned all of you long ago. A person can be sitting there, or talking or writing letters or making demands, but that doesn't mean they're in relationship with you. They may find you and yours convenient dart boards, or mirrors, or tape recorders, or vomitoriums...but I don't think your father is really in relationship to anyone. Including himself.

You are very strong. Very articulate, and very smart. I am so ready to learn from you.

Thanks for being here, and thanks for sharing this hard work with us.

Hopalong
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

maitri

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Re: The story so far
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2007, 10:03:57 AM »
Oh God, I knew I was onto a winner when I found this board but I had no idea how total and loving the support would be right from the first time I posted. Thank you all so, so much.

I want to and will reply to each of you, but right now my husband and I are taking our son out for a day of fun. I'm really looking forward to it - family day is the best day of the week!

More soon, and for now, thank you all.

xxxxxx
Maitri
 

Hopalong

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Re: The story so far
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2007, 10:43:28 AM »
Sea,

thank you so much for this you wrote for Maitri:

There is more to relationships than worry. Creating a focus where you insist on doing things together that are structured and have clear boundaries is so important.

What an incredibly helpful idea for any painful relationship or one that's in difficulty. (Not relationships with pure Ns, though, which should likely be abandoned.)

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."