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The truth comes out -- and Flo's tears are flowing

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Flo:
:cry: My tears are flowing, friends, because I just had another run-in with my sister.

The final conclusion of THIS one is: We agreed that our definitions of the word "love" are different.

To me, "love" means action, not just a feeling.

To her, my definition is a laying guilt trip on her. To her,  love is a feeling, and that is what love is.

Also, she says, "I have spent MY WHOLE LIFE taking care of you!! And now, I have to spend some time taking care of myself!"

I said, "That is completely untrue!! You know that I completely agree that you were so supportive when we were kids! You were the only support I had [from Daddy's abuse], and you know I know that, and I am extremely grateful for that, and always have been. But when we both married our second husbands, we supported EACH OTHER!"

She said, "Okay, then, I spend MY ENTIRE CHILDHOOD SUPPORTING YOU!!!"

I said, "That's a lot different. Not only that, it was the parents' fault, and not mine."

Geez, so there's all this festering resentment in her against me.

I had tried to get her to come with me to see my therapist, since she did something so hurtful to me AND Jim two weekends ago, which I think I have gone into elsewhere.   But yesterday was the first day we've spoken on the phone since then, although we left each other cooling off messages a couple of times. I said I wanted her to come with me to my therapist b/c the issue was HUGE and she could bring her therp, too, or have her therp on the speaker phone, OR we could all 4 be on the phone in nobody's office. But she rejects ALL OF THIS, and plays down any need for what she calls a "third party."

So now, I YET AGAIN, want to give up my entire family of origin. There are only 3 left: my sister, my mother, and my brother. My mother has never loved me; my sister used to love me, but now has become hardened over the past decade or so; my brother used to love me, but in his adulthood he forgets about our childhood closeness; and my Daddy, although he was brutal to me, really loved me -- through his ACTIONS as well as his feelings. He helped me with a lot of stuff, like we painted my house together, laid a carpet, installed a brick hearth and a wood stove, scraped off the rust off my car and painted it with rustoleum -- all sorts of cool projects like that. And I gave him flowers and planted them in his garden for him, and stuff.

Now that he is gone, there is no love at all in my family.  It's all Normal Rockwell show-stuff. Image. Fake.

I told my sister that I could not hold it against her that her definition of love is different from mine, b/c THE ENTIRE FAMILY is like that! And that I was just born into the wrong family.

The problem is that Daddy left me 1/3 of his money, but Mother has control of it.

I wonder if I divorced all 3 of them, if I would somehow still be able to receive my share of Daddy's inheritance, which is fairly large?

Does anyone know?

I am going to see a lawyer asap.   :evil:

Flo

Rojo:
Hi, Flo

I feel so bad that you are having to deal with all of this - is sounds so upsetting and if I were in your shoes, I'd feel as though someone had chopped me off at the knees after what your sister said to you.

Flo, I'm not sure if I have a solution for you or not but it seems to me that your sister is going to feel what she wants to feel about your childhoods.  It's her choice if she wants to blame you for what your parents did.  You can't do anything about that, nor can you re-create history for her.  I fear that trying to vindicate yourself in this regard is nothing short of a trap for you - N's seem to do a great job of teaching us that we have to keep trying to prove ourselves, even after they're no longer with us.  I'm sure it's immensely hard to do but I'd venture to say that you should work on not internalizing what she said to you.  She's also a victim here and seems to be looking for a place dump her hurt.  The question is, are you going to be the dumping ground?

Something that struck me about your post, Flo is this:

"and my Daddy, although he was brutal to me, really loved me -- through his ACTIONS as well as his feelings.  He helped me with a lot of stuff, like we painted my house together, laid a carpet, installed a brick hearth and a wood stove, scraped off the rust off my car and painted it with rustoleum -- all sorts of cool projects like that. And I gave him flowers and planted them in his garden for him, and stuff."

The way I read that, I see you processing brutality and aid in doing chores/projects as love.  Let me get this straight, in other words, if I terrorize my dog everyday but still remember to feed him and take him for a walk, I'm showing love to him?  I don't think so, Flo.  Love, like brutality IS an action word but love and brutality are not synonymous.  In my book, love is an emotional action word that creates a sense of security and wellbeing for both parties.

As for the inheritance, only you and your lawyer can decide what's best for you.  Keep in mind that you didn't arrange for that money to be given to you.  Your dad made that decision, so don't let anyone use the inheritance factor as a weapon against you.

I wish you luck with this, Flo, truly.

God bless,

Rojo

Anonymous:
Hi Flo,

Do you think your sister might be feeling jealous and insecure because of your new relationship? The fact that you're happy and are embracing life with your new guy. The fact that his family loves you and you are now in a whole new world, that doesn't involve her as much.

It happens. When I went from renting to buying my first home, a huge, in-your-face 3 story joint on a hill, my relationship with one of my best friends soured, coincidentally. This took the gloss of my happiness. I was so caught up in decorating and so excited I unintentionally alienated her and she reacted with lots of nastiness. But at the time I couldn't understand what was happening. In her mind I was supposed to be the poor one in the relationship. When my circumstances changed for the better she couldn't handle it. It was a very sad.

Are you supposed to be the dependant one? You must need her to help you get through. Maybe she's feeling displaced and in upsetting you, creating a need for herself in your mind and life again.

I'm just taking a pot-shot here Flo. But it sort of look slike that too me. Just when you've found a nice relationship and you're happy, she's upseting the apple-cart. Maybe she's jealous of Jim? Who knows.

Can you use your 'indifference' formula here. That is a brilliant input you shared. Can you step back and look at history with your sister and see when you have been closest. Is she happier with you when you're in need. What's she like with you when you're not in need? Does this seem to threaten her? Anyway Flo, I may be way off base and I'm in no way criticising your sister. It's just human nature I'm talking about. Take care

Guest

Flo:
Dearest Rojo and Guest,

Hi, Rojo, as I have not communicated with you nor met you before. And Guest -- are you the same Guest who I've corresponded with before (if you want to say -- okay not to answer this).  And any rate, Guest, thank you for your response.

Both of your responses are so well thought out.  I have been looking for responses all day.

Guest, I honestly don't know.  This HAS happened to me with my 2nd husband, that is for sure.  Exactly as you say -- namely, when I folowed his advice and grew very strong, he lost interest.

And Rojo, one point I was making about love regarding my dad was that love was action on his part, and that love with the other three members of my family is not action -- at least not anymore.  When Daddy was alive, we used to do things together -- picnics in the park and go for a short hike;  play board games; do silly and fun things; sing together; play Charades; once in a while have a treasure hunt.

Now, if I suggest something like this, NONE of the other three are interested. They say "that was for kids; we haven't done that since bacme adults."  Which is FALSE.  The truth is, we haven't done it since Daddy died.

Rojo, I cannot 100% condemn my dad.  I give him credit where credit is due.  I know my dad loved me, and that he had some areas where he lost control.  As a person myself who lives with bipolar disorder and now takes medication for it, I have had the theory for years that my [former] rages were like a seizure.  I could feel one coming on for a few moments.  A rage could be set off - triggered.  And I knew when it was about to blow.  I tried EVERY SKILL I KNEW I HAD, had been trained to do, but I absolutely COULD NOT STOP the rage.  Not until I started taking the medication called Tegretol which, by the way, is a medication given to people with seizure disorders.

For years, I spoke of hypomania like mine being like a form of a seizure, but was scoffed at by those with "real" seizure disorders, as well as by mental health professionals.  But not by some of the other people I knew with bipolar disorder.

Now, I notice, this possibility is being discussed seriously, and bipolar disorder has begun to be thought of -- at least hypothetically -- as a neurological disorder.   Since my dx at age 54, the family thinks it likely that Daddy may have had bipolar, or at least something similar.  Like I said, I think he had several forms of mental illness.  Narcissism was only a small part of his problems, and his narcissm was not full blown NPD.

That said, I know my dad loved me.  And for him, love was an action.  My feelings toward my dad were extremely strong love-hate.  My dad was a very confusesd and confusing person.

The comparison between him and my sister and mother was that as the two women have grown more mature, their interest in life in general has waned.  They have faded away from their earlier playfulness, faded from their own passions and interests.

Also, Rojo, I am not internalizing or taking personally my sister's accusations.  It is only that I am so BLOWN AWAY by her complette change of personality and attitude.  THIS is what has me feeling so hurt.  We used to be close; she used to be supportive and a friend to me. Now, she has said essentially that she is not.  She will never admit that she is not my friend.  But to me, "To have a friend, one needs to be a friend."  And to be a friend means you need to be there for the other person; spend time with them; do things together; have fun together; not un-invite them to something you have invited them too! Especially when it is a family affair; and encourage them (if you are a family member like a sister) to have a relationship with their grand-neice, which my sister never does.  My grand-neice is like my sister's property!  I have only seen her once or twice, for a very few minutes, and she is two years old now.  My sister says, "That's because you never come over!"  well, I have to take two buses, and she has a car.  She lives 15 miles away.  I could easily meet her at the end of one bus line, right at the end of the fwy for her. IOW, half way!  A 20 ride for me, 20 for her and Em, the neice.

Also, we used to trade massages when we shared a bedroom when we were growing up.  About 4 years ago, I was closer to suicide than I have ever been.  I called her and asked her to come over.  She said she could not because her best friend was driving down from upstate!  So I said, Okay.

But a few minutes later, she called me back, and said her best friend told her she HAD to come see me! So her best friend went home, and Sis drove the 25 minutes to my aprartment and visited.  I said what I really needed was to lie in her lap, and for her to just pet my hair.  She said OK.

When I put my head in her lap, I felt as though I had put my head on top of a man-hole cover -- cast iron!

A few days later, she told me she had discussed the experience with our mother, and Mother told her "If the experience was that unpleasant for you, you should never do it again!"

Well, I know my sister would easily be able to give our mother a head massage; or her son's girlfriend.  Why not me?

These are the things I do not understand. And I do not understand why she will not take the time to share our therapists' times to try to get our relationship back!  SHE says that there is no serious problem between us.  And SHE has even considered becoming a professional therapist, and went to grad school for a year in that field, before deciding to do something else!  She studied women's crisis counseling, too,and did that as a volunteer for a whole summer!  She also has had years and years of personal therapy herself!

Now, wouldn't you think she would know that in any relationship, if ONE of the two parties thinks there is a major communication problem, there IS a major communication problem?

Flo

rosencrantz:
Interesting how the same situation can be seen from so many different points of view


--- Quote ---To me, "love" means action, not just a feeling. To her, my definition is a laying guilt trip on her. To her, love is a feeling, and that is what love is.  Also, she says, "I have spent MY WHOLE LIFE taking care of you!! And now, I have to spend some time taking care of myself!"
--- End quote ---

 
From my perspective, the 'feeling' of love someone has for you is worth appreciating and nurturing - and reciprocating.
 
But you say you will only accept THAT she loves you IF she does some action that YOU want that is not a priority for HER.  
 
We can always ask for what we want, but it's not God given that we should get it.  Otherwise we end up in the realm of 'emotional blackmail'.  Emotional blackmail only works if the person you are blackmailing feels guilty enough to give in and put our interests before theirs...???

Rojo  expresses her insight into your predicament  with a great deal of compassion.  It's very difficult to get to grips with the contradictions of an inconsistent abuser.  Reminds me of how the kidnapped end up with tremendous loyalty towards their captors, to the extent they choose not to escape when a chance arises.  

But perhaps you felt (still feel?) that kind actions and nice things were/are your due as recompense/in exchange for the abuse???  'Love' is very confusing when it's mixed up with abuse.  We so absolutely want to believe that we are loved and loveable in spite of all the odds - which we are, but not necessarily by those who are incapable of it.

There is another long thread elsewhere on this board, posted not so long ago, which looked at inheritance difficulties which you might find useful.

R

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