Missing puzzle pieces

[clj_writes]

Hi, everyone.  My saga is less dramatic than many of the extreme N ones I read here but I am still stuck in certain ways and can't figure it out.  I am wondering if perhaps someone here might "get" what I'm experiencing.

In my family, there was no hitting or yelling or overt negative feedback.  However, there also wasn't any direct communication, any physical affection, or permission to express (or even have) emotions.  

My maternal grandmother died of leukemia when my mother was 8 and my maternal grandfather began abusing my mother and her sisters after that.  It has never been openly discussed but I suspect there was sexual abuse in addition to the physical.  My father's mother was cold and distant and his father wasn't home much.

I grew up very controlled and very much a good girl (except they preferred boys so I adapted on that front as well).  It wasn't until last year that I realized I had been brainwashed and then brainwashed into believing I hadn't been brainwashed (I think it was the psychologist R.D. Laing who first said something like this).  I believed it was my job to keep my mother from feeling her pain.

I ended up with many difficulties: relationships (I was a chameleon for many years), disordered eating, perfectionism, anxiety, believing I did not have emotions, overly driven, socially isolating...

Although I've unraveled much of this over the past ten years, I seem to still have odd stuck places like thinking I will "kill" my parents if I become myself (I worked through this one).  I'm wondering if someone might recognize this historical pattern (I don't think it is "N" although my mother did/does tend to turn things around so they end up about her) and know of any resources related to this.

Thanks for listening!

[cj]

Hi,

I'm new to this board so am just getting to grips with all this and testing the water I guess. I'm currently looking at this narcisism thing, and the possibility of being at the brunt of it myself for a long (*coughs*) time.
You say 'No overly negative' feedback?, but I'm sure you realise some of the damaging aspects to your upbringing in what you've mentioned? (not being allowed to express emotion, no physical contact, not good...).
I was interested in this idea that you would be 'killing'' your parents if you decide to be yourself. I haven't heard this before. The assumption would be that you feel a responsibility to be a life support, like you are PART of them, and if you leave you cut them off/they can't exist without you?? Your are one and the same, not your own seperate self? Guilt I guess.
I relate to a few things you mention btw, (re: the emotion thing, anxiety/social and otherwise/ocd  tendancies, perfectionism, the list goes on...). Not really sure what else to say, but hope you hang around.

[Survivor]

clj,

Welcome!  I am new also.  Have you looked at the list of Narcissist Characteristics?  Here are some below:

- inordinate self-pride
- self-concern
- an exaggeration of the importance of one's experiences and feelings
- ideas of perfection
- a reluctance to accept blame or criticism
- empathy deficit
- grandiosity
- entitlement
- shallowness
- preoccupation with fame, wealth, and achievement
- craving admiration, attention and praise
- placing excessive emphasis on displaying beauty and power

Maybe none of these fit, but thought I'd pass them along anyway.  For years I didn't think my life was so bad either.  Once I really dug in and discovered how my mother had treated me (and brainwashed me!), I saw how wrong it all was.  I knew I had to do something.  I have been "detached" from her for almost 20 years, but I still have some old tapes in my head from her.  

I came from a "looking good" family.  We all dressed, acted, performed "perfectly" for our mother.  Everything was about appearance.  I, too, have difficulty with perfectionism.  I was always "driven".  (Couldn't leave the house for a five minute errand without spending two hours getting ready!   )  In the last five years (I'm 44) I have finally learned to relax and take care of myself instead of everyone else.  I finally asked myself "Why? Why am I driving myself into an early grave?"  I learned to take care of everyone else and make everything look perfect, but inside I was falling apart.

I hope you will take time for yourself.  It really does help.  I have been on this journey of self discovery for years, but only recently learned there was a name for my mother . . . NARCISSIST!  Whether your mother fits this name or not, I think this message board will help you.  There are a lot of people here who care and have great feedback.  It's a place to get nurtured and find incredible information.

Good luck to you . . . thanks for your post.

Survivor

[cj]

I'd hazard a guess the 'superficial' element serves a function, i.e. not being in touch with yourself, (and in reflection not being in touch with others either). Getting in touch with yourself would be disasterous if the N was to see how he/she really is.
That said however, I'm sure the fuction (if it is a fuction!, I mean aren't some people just shallow by nature?) is used by lots of people with difficulties, for similar reasons, and not through ill will.

Sometimes people who are like this in my experience, seem to be so out of touch with themselves... its astounding. Terms like 'finding one self' are lost on them. As is any real soul searching. *Ponders* Does anyone agree with this? Because its guesswork atm.

[Christy]

Survivor and cj,
Thanks for responding!  I was having a bit of that "voicelessness" feeling for a bit there.  

My mother does have some N tendencies.  In her case it is how stupid she is (although she is a much-awarded teacher) and how fat (she's 5'6", 110 pounds) and how "she had a difficult childhood" rather than grandiosity.  Looks are hugely important as are achievement, admiration, praise etc.  Criticism???--YIKES!  

I think she's a much better teacher than a mother although she openly says she doesn't like the girls. Before Christmas she kept insisting "All women are bitches" and trying to get me to agree.  Before years of therapy and self-introspection and bodywork and individuation etc., I might not have disagreed with her!  Egads.  When I was born, they only had a boy name selected so my hospital bracelet says "Baby".  No wonder I went on to get an engineering Ph.D. (overcompensation to say the least!).

Oh, the "killing" thing isn't enmeshment (although I had that in abundance--I've worked through most of it).  I think it is the fact they needed me to be a certain way and that way was so rigidly and narrowly defined.  To deviate seemed a killing blow.  Now (I'm 41) they have no clue who I am and how "unacceptable" the true me is.  Over Christmas it was humorous because I was so free from the old hooks and I could be amused at their foibles.  I only felt like binging once over a four day period rather than every 15 minutes or so!  Many major shifts are behind me.

My anxiety has been up lately because I've been connecting with people and saying taboo things like I think my grandmother "abandoned" my mother when she died (my grandmother was made into a saint...not supposed to say bad things about her).  More to work through on the connection front...

Thanks again for listening.  Sorry to babble on a bit....
Christy

[surf14]

HI CJ and others;

I'd hazard a guess the 'superficial' element serves a function, i.e. not being in touch with yourself, (and in reflection not being in touch with others either). Getting in touch with yourself would be disasterous if the N was to see how he/she really is.

This is really the crux of it!  The narcissist in usually very bright, I know my mother is but they are terrified of looking within because their ego's are sooo fragile. They really loathe themselves but have built a false-self to defend against that.  Any remote reference to their self-centeredness, cruelty or tendancy to abuse can be met  with extreme rage and denial; even a bland reference to " you hurt my feelings when you said that" can be met with rejection and ostracism.  It is absolutely taboo for them to really look at who they are and how they affect others.  Surf

[cj]

HI CJ and others;

.......even a bland reference to " you hurt my feelings when you said that" can be met with rejection and ostracism.  It is absolutely taboo for them to really look at who they are and how they affect others.  Surf

Well from my experience, i could never have said something like that, something so conscise. I mean this is alien to me, that openess and um...sort of ability to have those sort of exchange. Feelings werent 'allowed' to be put on the table for discussion, as if she couldn't be, or didn't allow herself to be critised, or seen as falliable. If they were ususally it came out scattered (in blind rage!), in my confusion, I think, and of course it was back to the old guilt tripping, on her part.
I think intelligence can be 'modified' by a persons attitude, the more people close themselves down, or don't want to learn, the stupider they become, and this of cpurse would be true for N's, and what they don't want to see.

[cj]

Sorry if that post seemed about me specifically as usual, just weird the way this feels like its unfolding before my eyes, thats all. Thanks surf.

[cj]

Actually what i meant to say was something like 'you hurt my feelings' would have been considered anything but a bland statement, in my experience (sorry, accusation rather   )!

[clj_writes aka Christy]

"They really loathe themselves but have built a false-self to defend against that. Any remote reference to their self-centeredness, cruelty or tendancy to abuse can be met with extreme rage and denial".

Oh my goodness, yes!  Any remote reference...what a truism that is!  My mother immediately goes into hurt, offended, "I had a painful childhood" pitiful mode.  Then I'm awash in the guilt yet again.  I spent most of my life avoiding the land-mine of "remote references"!

BTW, please pardon my difficulty listening at the moment.  I have almost a roaring in my ears from telling these truths so openly and it is making it difficult to "hear" much else.

Thanks for the insights!
Christy

[cj]

So why do they cry? They are crying for themselves? Or acting?

[clj_writes]

My mother did not emote.  Nor did my father or brother.  I think my mother cried about once a decade (no exaggeration).

Maybe for some people crying is staging how they *think* they are supposed to react in a given situation?  A socially acceptable response of some sort?

Just guessing....

[cj]

Geez I really need to register, would cut down on the post count a little.......

Common statements made by my mother.

'Its all my fault, I cant do anything right!' (in regard to my illness  when brought up/discussed.)

'I'm wrong as usual!'

Crying and not letting ME ( god dont i feel stupid!)) console her after an argument. Drawing away, avoiding looking at me when im talking to her unless she wants to.

(in response to me saying im angry at the way she brought me up, later retracted through guilt of course!).....

'I know we didnt have much, but i did my best!' (making it about money/possessions, like I give a **** about what I did have matrialistically!)

[surf14]

HiCJ and others,
  In any minimally healthy relationship you need to be able to say, "that hurt my feelings".  This is how one makes another more sensitive and how relationships are crafted to work.  But yes, with an N, this would be considered  CONFRONTATIONAL, which is ridiculous of course and leaves no room for negotiation or boundary setting.  If you are not allowed to set boundaries  how can you compromise or feel safe? It takes you to the no-man's land of relationship with an N: utterly frustrating, painful and totally self-subjugating.  You become completely involved in a double-bind and that's pretty crazy-making.  UUUGGGGHHH.   Surf

[clj_writes]

CJ--it is weird enough our initials are the same but our lives have a lot of parallels too!

'I'm wrong as usual!"

Oh, have I heard that one a million times.  Sighs and pitiful sounds would accompany it, too.

Both my parents have low self-esteem, are workaholics, and are extremely bright and accomplished.  They always told me how great I was but how was I supposed to believe them when they obviously thought they themselves had little value??  How could I trust *those* people?  Plus anything "unacceptable" was ignored (hoping it would go away?).